Question for Parents

[Jake_Ellison]

(cont from prev post)

Now you’ve said this seems shakey. Common sense makes this argument appear shakey. You said about how if this is true then the universe could have just poped into existance at any time in its history with the appearance of a history that in fact never happened, it was just formed that way. Of course if God was true he could have done exactly the same thing.

You say that the first cause argument didn’t fully imply that the laws of causality applied before the universe started, becuase God is the exception. But how is that any less shakey? All your doing now is taking that point where modern science ceases to explain the cause and inserting God. This is just what people did when they couldn’t explain why the world was created.

But if we just assume for a moment that God did creat the big bang, then where did God come from? To say that God was there forever seems like an easy answer. But you said that an outside the universe seems silly, because outside the universe is nothing, not even space. But then we just say God is all powerful and can exist in nothing. This still doesn’t explain why God is there in the first place. Now a religious person would say this doesn’t matter. Because the existance of the universe proofs that something must have caused it which proves an eternal God.

But this is still based on assumptions. I don’t believe in the ‘causality doesn’t apply outside the universe’ argument. But as equally as you can say that you believe in an eternal God existing outside the universe, I could say I believe in eternal energy. Why does it exist? For the same reason God exists. It has to to explain how the universe aross. If the entire universe can form from energy, then why not assume energy is our constant?

To be honest with you, this theory is as easy to proof as it is easy to proof Gods existance. You just can’t do it. I am happy to say this. I am happy to say, that once we sweep away all the assuptions ad crazy theories we actually don’t know anything about before the universe. We can’t even understand what before the universe was like, becuase the word ‘before’ suggests time, and time didn’t even exist.

But the theory of God is, I find, and your welcome to disagree, more unbelievable then the theory of energy. There is at least something tangible with energy. At least with that theory we can say ‘well we know the universe came from energy in the first place’. The theory of God just says ‘I don’t want to look anymore so I’ll invent a theory that doesn’t require me to.’ Its just like saying faries stole my socks. You can’t prove they didn’t until you actually find your socks. And who knows when that will happen? I think that at some time in the future prehaps someone will. And untill then I don’t see the need to believe in God.

So yes I agree with you that one eternal being seems more likly then just causaliy not applying. I look forward to your argument of why that should be God over ‘energy.’ (Of course it could be neither and we’ll never know).

 

[Jake_Ellison]

Hello Jake,

When you wrote this, you gave me hope.

Hope that my son, who told me he didn’t believe in God anymore, would keep looking and keep his heart open.

How would your parents feel? I can only tell you how I feel. It’s like someone kidnapped him. I cry often and pray more often, but I never let him see it. My greatest joy would be if he told me he would stay open to God’s Grace. That he would listen to that Voice within, then maybe he might come back Home. I grieve for him, but I love him, and I hope he knows I do.

That’s how I feel.

I’m glad I’ve given you hope.
Thankyou very much for telling me of your experience. As you have actually been through this you’ve given me a better idea of what I could expect. And thats why I don’t think I’ve told my parents. Your feeling like ‘someone kidnapped’ your son is very strong, and must be incredibly hard to cope with.
But I have to ask you, in retrospect, are you glad that he told you? While you may have felt better if he hadn’t told you, are you glad that he didn’t conceal it?

 

[kage_ar]

Need to get to work - just food for thought. There are many many many people on these boards who HAVE questioned, researched and gone through major conversions of belief systems. During my own period of searching, I think I invesitgated every single belief and non-belief set out there!

Some of the most holy examples we have are people who doubed and questioned God. There are quite a few people who will listen, talk, debate. Keep your heart open.

And know that belief is a choice, if not in faith - remember it if you ever marry. When married, there will be days when you have to choose to BELIEVE you love that woman, that you don’t feel it nor see proof

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

Could you turn around right now and completly, in your heart, not believe in God? I don’t think you could.
**Oh how easy it would be. Much easier than believing. **
It’s always easier to say, “I don’t believe.” Rarely does a person have to change their life or their choices or how they think when they don’t accept a belief. Accepting a belief requires change, requires action. It’s always easier to not change, to not accept, to choose to not believe.

---

As for theories, I’m not sure if you exactly understand what a scientific theory is
**Yes, I know exactly what scientific theory is. **

I think much of how your parents handle this will be based on how well you continue to live according to their beliefs. As I said, my main concern wouldn’t just be the loss of faith. It’s would be sins that may or may not be dabbled in. You may not think they are sins or have an import on a soul, but your parents most certainly do and I should think would react accordingly.

---

**So go talk to your parents already. It won’t get any easier waiting for it. **

 

[Em_in_FL]

(cont from prev post)

Now you’ve said this seems shakey. Common sense makes this argument appear shakey. You said about how if this is true then the universe could have just poped into existance at any time in its history with the appearance of a history that in fact never happened, it was just formed that way. Of course if God was true he could have done exactly the same thing.

You say that the first cause argument didn’t fully imply that the laws of causality applied before the universe started, becuase God is the exception. But how is that any less shakey? All your doing now is taking that point where modern science ceases to explain the cause and inserting God. This is just what people did when they couldn’t explain why the world was created.

But if we just assume for a moment that God did creat the big bang, then where did God come from? To say that God was there forever seems like an easy answer. But you said that an outside the universe seems silly, because outside the universe is nothing, not even space. But then we just say God is all powerful and can exist in nothing. This still doesn’t explain why God is there in the first place. Now a religious person would say this doesn’t matter. Because the existance of the universe proofs that something must have caused it which proves an eternal God.

God revealed Himself to the world eons before we had the ability to “define” where the world came from. God wasn’t “inserted” into the equation AFTER just to “fill in the gaps of scientific knowledge”.
Quite the opposite.
Science is revealing the proof of God’s existance. Nothing that
has been revealed through science has negated the concept the God… and I guarantee you that nothing will ever be revealed in the future that will negate the concept of God.
So, we can’t disprove God… does that mean we’ve proved His existance… maybe not, but it IS a logical conclusion!

But this is still based on assumptions. I don’t believe in the ‘causality doesn’t apply outside the universe’ argument. But as equally as you can say that you believe in an eternal God existing outside the universe, I could say I believe in eternal energy. Why does it exist? For the same reason God exists. It has to to explain how the universe aross. If the entire universe can form from energy, then why not assume energy is our constant?

To be honest with you, this theory is as easy to proof as it is easy to proof Gods existance. You just can’t do it. I am happy to say this. I am happy to say, that once we sweep away all the assuptions ad crazy theories we actually don’t know anything about before the universe. We can’t even understand what before the universe was like, becuase the word ‘before’ suggests time, and time didn’t even exist.

But the theory of God is, I find, and your welcome to disagree, more unbelievable then the theory of energy. There is at least something tangible with energy. At least with that theory we can say ‘well we know the universe came from energy in the first place’. The theory of God just says ‘I don’t want to look anymore so I’ll invent a theory that doesn’t require me to.’ Its just like saying faries stole my socks. You can’t prove they didn’t until you actually find your socks. And who knows when that will happen? I think that at some time in the future prehaps someone will. And untill then I don’t see the need to believe in God.

How is the theory of God more unbelievable than the theory of energy? The theory of God IS NOT a cop-out for searching for more answers… search away!
The problem with your little comparison to fairies is that God DID leave proof (like saying that there were pieces of evidence of a fairy that stole your socks… pixie dust, torn wings, etc, etc). GOD isn’t something that people just invented to explain the unexplainable. GOD left proof.

So yes I agree with you that one eternal being seems more likly then just causaliy not applying. I look forward to your argument of why that should be God over ‘energy.’ (Of course it could be neither and we’ll never know).

True… your theory of energy could be true.
But God left proof on this earth of His existance… in miracles that cannot be explained by science at all!
There are a LOT of pieces of evidence of God’s existance… science is still working on explaining those.

 

[mlbrink]

Let me preface this by saying that I have not read this whole discussion. It seems to me that you posses that most dangerous of gifts, a scientific mind. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading some of your arguments and frankly I agree with a lot of what you’ve said. In my opinion (there I go being subjective again), there is no logical proof or argument that there is a God, but isn’t that is the very point of faith. Yes, there have been unexplained things, some of which I believe came from God, but even if every one were explained by science, it would not shake my faith. Faith should not be dependant on the ability of science to prove it (or inability to disprove it), but again that is just my subjective opinion.

Oh yeah, suck it up and tell your parents. My opinion: start it with something like, “I have something to discuss, and you are not going to like it.” That way you’re stuck and have to see it through. I tend to try and weasel my way out of difficult conversations half way through so I like to commit myself from the start.

MLB

 

[Jake_Ellison]

I think much of how your parents handle this will be based on how well you continue to live according to their beliefs. As I said, my main concern wouldn’t just be the loss of faith. It’s would be sins that may or may not be dabbled in. You may not think they are sins or have an import on a soul, but your parents most certainly do and I should think would react accordingly.

---

**So go talk to your parents already. It won’t get any easier waiting for it. **

I’m surprised that you think it would be easier not to believe. It’s the opposite for me, in that I find it easier to believe the thing I believe in. Thats because I think I have evidence for it. If you really honestly believe in your heart, if you absolutly know you are right, then how could you just change what you feel is right in your heart? Surely it would be like desideing to believe the earth was flat, and then actually knowing, 100% in your heart that it was.

Thanks for the advice. But isn’t being an atheist a hell worthy sin anyway?

 

[Em_in_FL]

Thanks for the advice. But isn’t being an atheist a hell worthy sin anyway?

Just FYI from the Catechism of the Catholic Church…

1037
God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:621

 

[KCT]

And you don’t understand evolution, but you don’t believe in that?

The Catholic Church is not anti- evolution. As long as we believe God has a place in creation.

As for whales once walking the earth, no, I’m not convinced yet.

Have some species evolved over time? Maybe. I have no problem with that. —KCT

 

[mariyka]

Hello Jake,

I’m glad I’ve given you hope.
Thankyou very much for telling me of your experience. As you have actually been through this you’ve given me a better idea of what I could expect. And thats why I don’t think I’ve told my parents. Your feeling like ‘someone kidnapped’ your son is very strong, and must be incredibly hard to cope with.
But I have to ask you, in retrospect, are you glad that he told you? While you may have felt better if he hadn’t told you, are you glad that he didn’t conceal it?

A mother knows. I suspected it already and we spoke about it at length. I am glad he told me because it shows he has some integrity and isn’t deceitful or a hypocrite. He’s very intelligent and articulate. You remind me of him very much.

By the way, as a biologist, I think evolution is a magnificent way for God to create. It’s overwhelming to think about.

I will be off line for a while now, but will be checking in.

 

[Jake_Ellison]

1037
God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:621 …

Thanks for the information.

 

[Jake_Ellison]

God revealed Himself to the world eons before we had the ability to “define” where the world came from. God wasn’t “inserted” into the equation AFTER just to “fill in the gaps of scientific knowledge”.
Quite the opposite.
Science is revealing the proof of God’s existance. Nothing that
has been revealed through science has negated the concept the God… and I guarantee you that nothing will ever be revealed in the future that will negate the concept of God.
So, we can’t disprove God… does that mean we’ve proved His existance… maybe not, but it IS a logical conclusion!

I guess we will have to agree to disagree over the first point. I believe God was inserted after to fill the gaps. It certainly happened with the development of early religions as man kind developed. They need God to explain everything. But did Thor the lightning God actually exist? Or was he inserted to explain a then ununderstandable natural phenominon?

Sure we can produce nothing that will definitively negate God. And sure we’ll never be able to prove his existance. But concluding in his existance is just as logical as saying there must be a lightning god to explain lightning. By the way, I could come up with any number of mythical creature or achient god or even invent one of the top of my head. And if they don’t exist there will be no evidence for there existance. And likwise, there will be no evidence against. And therefore you won’t be able to disprove them.

How is the theory of God more unbelievable than the theory of energy? The theory of God IS NOT a cop-out for searching for more answers… search away!
The problem with your little comparison to fairies is that God DID leave proof (like saying that there were pieces of evidence of a fairy that stole your socks… pixie dust, torn wings, etc, etc). GOD isn’t something that people just invented to explain the unexplainable. GOD left proof.

The theory of God is as believable as a theory of faries who created the universe. Its as believeable as any supernatural reason for the existance of the universe. Just because more people believe it, it doesn’t make it true.

And there is evidence faries stole my socks. I can’t find my socks. They can’t have just vanished into nowhere. Thats impossible. Oh and also, there are people that really do believe in faires and people who claim they have seen them. Maybe you can’t scientifically proove them, but eyewitnesses have written their tales of experience with faries and sure, we might call them myth now, but some people really think that faries have helped them in some small way. How can we deny this evidence?

True… your theory of energy could be true.
But God left proof on this earth of His existance… in miracles that cannot be explained by science at all!
There are a LOT of pieces of evidence of God’s existance… science is still working on explaining those.

I think the simple explination for miricals that can’t be explained by science is they don’t happen. I think this belief is probably more logical, even if we don’t want it to be.

 

[Jake_Ellison]

Let me preface this by saying that I have not read this whole discussion. It seems to me that you posses that most dangerous of gifts, a scientific mind. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading some of your arguments and frankly I agree with a lot of what you’ve said. In my opinion (there I go being subjective again), there is no logical proof or argument that there is a God, but isn’t that is the very point of faith. Yes, there have been unexplained things, some of which I believe came from God, but even if every one were explained by science, it would not shake my faith. Faith should not be dependant on the ability of science to prove it (or inability to disprove it), but again that is just my subjective opinion.

Oh yeah, suck it up and tell your parents. My opinion: start it with something like, “I have something to discuss, and you are not going to like it.” That way you’re stuck and have to see it through. I tend to try and weasel my way out of difficult conversations half way through so I like to commit myself from the start.

MLB

I totally agree, religion depends on faith. And I also agree that faith should not depend on ability to prove or disprove something. I don’t see that it does anyway. But for me faith isn’t good enough. Because as I said before, I see no difference between the faith of the Catholic Church or the faith of any other religious or supernatural belief. It all seems to be the same basis to be. And that basis is our own human nature.

By the way, I totally respect your subjective opinion. Especially because your not saying its objective.

Thanks for the advice. I really do like the phrase “I have something to discuss, and you are not going to like it.”

 

[Jake_Ellison]

The Catholic Church is not anti- evolution. As long as we believe God has a place in creation.

As for whales once walking the earth, no, I’m not convinced yet.

Have some species evolved over time? Maybe. I have no problem with that. —KCT

I know the church isn’t antievolution. I believed firmly in evolution when I was a Catholic. Although when I think of it, I don’t think I ever really considered the question of directed evolution or not. As a Catholic evolution would have had to occur with us in mind, as a target. I now don’t think we are any more special then any other animal. Fundamentally speaking.

And I won’t try to convince you that whales walked the earth. In fact, I’ll tell you they didn’t, so there is no need for you to believe that. However, their ancestors did. Did you know that the remnance of the legs of their ancestors still exist? Just stump like bones really, with no purpose now. And sometimes dolphoins have been found with tiny underformed legs. Genetic throwbacks, an embryonic malfunction, expressing genes that normally are no longer used.

 

[Jake_Ellison]

Hello Jake,

A mother knows. I suspected it already and we spoke about it at length. I am glad he told me because it shows he has some integrity and isn’t deceitful or a hypocrite. He’s very intelligent and articulate. You remind me of him very much.

By the way, as a biologist, I think evolution is a magnificent way for God to create. It’s overwhelming to think about.

I will be off line for a while now, but will be checking in.

Thanks for the compliment. I think I will have to talk to them at some point. I don’t think I can go rushing in though. I don’t really have a clue how a decent moment could arise to talk about it.

I agree that evolution is magnificent.

 

[mariyka]

Hi Jake,

I don’t really have a clue how a decent moment could arise to talk about it.

Do you ever go for walks or hikes with them? You need to be alone and focused. I would not tell them when they are driving in the car, for safety’s sake.

 

[pink]

I know, it’s hard for me to believe too. I have doubts of god exsisting. I want to believe though. I really want proof, not word of mouth “proof” or stories passed down. I wish I didn’t desire that.

It’s hard to have blind faith. I just hate to believe that we die and then there is nothing. No more exsistance. I once talked about this to a devoted church goer about my concerns if god exists or not. She said we may never know the answer. Kinda depressing, it made me think that she has some acceptance of the possibility that there may be nothing after death also.

Just a little background, I am trying to get back to the church, I really want to believe, but it’s hard to change my doubts. That scares me.

 

[Jake_Ellison]

Hi Jake,

Do you ever go for walks or hikes with them? You need to be alone and focused. I would not tell them when they are driving in the car, for safety’s sake.

Yeah that would be a bad idea!

Sometimes we go for walks. Not all that often, I prefer climbing mountains in Scottland and my mum prefers more gentle stuff. But sometimes. Never just the three of us though. My brother and sister would be there. My brother knows I’m an atheist but my sister doesn’t. I think if I am going to tell my parents I would’nt want anyone else there.

 

[Jake_Ellison]

I know, it’s hard for me to believe too. I have doubts of god exsisting. I want to believe though. I really want proof, not word of mouth “proof” or stories passed down. I wish I didn’t desire that.

It’s hard to have blind faith. I just hate to believe that we die and then there is nothing. No more exsistance. I once talked about this to a devoted church goer about my concerns if god exists or not. She said we may never know the answer. Kinda depressing, it made me think that she has some acceptance of the possibility that there may be nothing after death also.

Just a little background, I am trying to get back to the church, I really want to believe, but it’s hard to change my doubts. That scares me.

I know exactly how you feel. You could have been describing me a few years ago. I prayed alot for God to help me believe. I was afraid of not believeing, (fear of hell especally) but eventually I knew I just didn’t any more. It took me a while to realise that I didn’t need the belief. And yes, its hard to accept the idea of oblivion. But at least you won’t know anything about it. Just make the most of the time you do have here.

Prehaps you’ll be able to find God again, and if you do, good for you. I hope it makes you happy. If you don’t find him, don’t feel you can’t be happy without faith. You can. You can put your faith in other people. The comfort God gives us can be found in others. Even if I know someone isn’t praying for me, the fact that they are thinking of me is a comfort. Even if I know there is nothing in the prayers of others physically or spiritually helping me, I still can draw comfort from it, and sometimes comfort is the only help we need.

 

[Jessamy]

Alright, with your last post I can see that we are pretty much on the same page; it’s just a matter of degree. You agree that SOMETHING eternal most likely had to exist before the beginning of the universe. And I’d say you’re right… I cannot prove to you that something was God, but at the same time I don’t see how “energy” could have acted to change the status quo. It is my opinion that God makes more sense because God is able to think as well as exist. If energy were all that existed, why didn’t it just continue to exist in the same form forever? What induced the creation of matter? Energy in the sense I think of has to be transformed by something. It doesn’t transform itself.

I know there is a lot of speculation here, and if you someday prove me wrong about God then I will come to terms with it. But in the meantime I am going to keep heading further down the road I’m on which I think will lead me to Catholicism. I know this path will make me a better and more disciplined person and in a sense that’s all that matters.

Anyways, I am going to wish you luck and close this discussion. I will read the reply you post, but I am not going to have much time to respond now that school is kicking into high gear.

Jessica