Question for protestants from a protestant

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CatherineofA:
  1. If mass is as boring in person as it is on EWTN, I would be in torture.
Mass would be boring for me if I didn’t believe that Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit was truly present on the altar.

If someone told you that Jesus was in your town etc: preaching on a street corner, then I bet you’d be out of that door in a flash.
Catholics believe we meet Jesus in the Eucharist, and oh, as for swearing etc: Catholics are sinners too.

dsanford.com/miraclehost/hostvideo.wmv
 
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april_hosen:
Also, likeI said before I dont see how Mary interceding is Bibical. I mean it makes a lot of sense but I dont see the Bibical reference.
What about the wedding feast at Cana ?
 
Biblical Mary interceding-

Jesus asked us to pray for each other, and to ask each other to pray for each other. This is no different than what Mary does- prays for us like we would each other- except she is infiintely more holy and perfect and closer to God than we are. “The prayers of a righteous man availeth much.”
 
It’s not so much something we’re *required *to do, it’s something we choose to do as part of what we believe. We believe that Mary is the most holy human, besides Christ of course, and that she resides in Heaven with Him…who better to ask to pray for us than the mother of God?
 
In order to understand the role of Mary in God’s kingdom, we need to understand the role of the Giberah. In a Davidic kingdom (remember…Christ is a Davidic king - King of Kings!), the mother of the king was queen. The Giberah (queen mother) had a royal office, and her job was to make intercession on behalf of the people. For an example, I turn to scripture:
1 Kings 2:19 When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat down at his right hand.
Did you catch all that? Solomon, king of Israel, who bowed to no one, bowed to her. She was a royal subject, but he gave her honor like unto no one else in the kingdom. And what was she doing? She was making intercession on behalf of Adonijah. Notice, also, that Solomon had a throne brought for her to sit at his right hand - a position of power and influence.

Far too often, we (as “modern” people) neglect to understand Christ’s role as a Davidic king. Elsewhere we see Davidic kingdoms also had a “prime minister”, who was empowered to speak on behalf of the king or when the king was “not available” to rule. To see this, again I turn to scripture:
Isaiah 22:22 I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.
Contrast with Matt 16:18-19:
Matt 16:18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Once you see Christ as a Davidic king and His kingdom as a Davidic kingdom, all of these things start to fall into place.

To cement the fact that Christ is our one True Mediator, but not to the exclusion of any others (rather, we are all intercessors in Christ), I turn once more to scripture:
1 Tim 2: 1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
St. Paul urges us all to interceed for “everyone”, but to do so in Christ’s sole and unique mediatorship. Apart from Him we can do nothing, but in Him all things are possible!

Humbly,
RyanL
 
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sonseeker:
No; he means all, everyone in total. He reiterates it in Gal 3:22:

22 But the Scripture has shut up EVERYONE under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
But this scripture doesn’t state that everyone is sinful. It is directed at those who are “under” sin (in the NAB it’s stated as "But scripture confined all things under the power of sin…"). It isn’t a blanket confirmation that “all” individuals are under sin.
 
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badebop:
But this scripture doesn’t state that everyone is sinful. It is directed at those who are “under” sin (in the NAB it’s stated as "But scripture confined all things under the power of sin…"). It isn’t a blanket confirmation that “all” individuals are under sin.
The Greek verb translated “shut up” or “confined” means “to enclose on all sides.” All mankind is hopelessly trapped in sin, as a school of fish hopelessly trapped in a net.

Also:

1 Kings 8:46
*46 “When they sin against You (for there is no man who does not sin) and You are angry with them and deliver them to an enemy, so that they take them away captive to the land of the enemy, far off or near; *

*Psalm 143:2 *
*2 And do not enter into judgment with Your servant, For in Your sight no man living is righteous. *

*Proverbs 20:9 *
*9 Who can say, “I have cleansed my heart, I am pure from my sin”? *(a rhetorical question to which the author expects you to say “NO ONE.”

Ecclesiastes 7:20 *
20 Indeed
. there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins**. *

*Isaiah 53:6 *
*6 **All of us **like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him. *

*Romans 11:32 *
*32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. *

Also see Rom 3:9-19. (These are a few, there are many more.)

Bill
 
Bill,

Is it your contention that SIDS babies and the mentally impaired commit sin?

RyanL
 
Bill:

Please read the following explanations of the common misunderstanding of “all have sinned”:

Misunderstanding about Romans 3:23 (“All have sinned”)
Rom. 3:23 - Some Protestants use this verse “all have sinned” in an attempt to prove that Mary was also with sin. But "all have sinned " only means that all are subject to original sin. Mary was spared from original sin by God, not herself. The popular analogy is God let us fall in the mud puddle, and cleaned us up afterward through baptism. In Mary’s case, God did not let her enter the mud puddle.

Rom. 3:23 - “all have sinned” also refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. For example, infants, the retarded, and the senile cannot sin.

Rom. 3:23 - finally, “all have sinned,” but Jesus must be an exception to this rule. This means that Mary can be an exception as well. Note that the Greek word for all is “pantes.”

1 Cor. 15:22 - in Adam all (“pantes”) have died, and in Christ all (“pantes”) shall live. **This proves that “all” does not mean “every single one.” ** This is because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven), and not all will go to heaven (because Jesus said so). :eek:

Rom. 5:12 - Paul says that death spread to all (“pantes”) men. Again, this proves that “all” does not mean “every single one” because death did not spread to all men (as we have seen with Enoch and Elijah). 😃

Rom. 5:19 - here Paul says “many (not all) were made sinners.” Paul uses “polloi,” not “pantes.” Is Paul contradicting what he said in Rom. 3:23? Of course not. Paul means that all are subject to original sin, but not all reject God. 👍

Rom. 3:10-11 - Protestants also use this verse to prove that all human beings are sinful and thus Mary must be sinful. But see Psalm 14 which is the basis of the verse.

Psalm 14 - this psalm does not teach that all humans are sinful. It only teaches that, among the wicked, all are sinful. The righteous continue to seek God. :cool:

Psalm 53:1-3 - “there is none that does good” expressly refers to those who have fallen away. Those who remain faithful do good, and Jesus calls such faithful people “good.”

Luke 18:19 - Jesus says, “No one is good but God alone.” But then in Matt. 12:35, Jesus also says “The good man out of his good treasure…” So Jesus says no one is good but God, and then calls another person good.

Rom. 9:11 - God distinguished between Jacob and Esau in the womb, before they sinned. Mary was also distinguished from the rest of humanity in the womb by being spared by God from original sin.

Luke 1:47 - Mary calls God her Savior. Some Protestants use this to denigrate Mary. Why? Of course God is Mary’s Savior! She was freed from original sin in the womb (unlike us who are freed from sin outside of the womb), but needed a Savior as much as the rest of humanity.

Luke 1:48 - Mary calls herself lowly. But any creature is lowly compared to God. For example, in Matt. 11:29, even Jesus says He is lowly in heart. Lowliness is a sign of humility, which is the greatest virtue of holiness, because it allows us to empty ourselves and receive the grace of God to change our sinful lives. 🙂

Bill, the blanket statement that “every single person has sinned” is just an oversimplification of what Scripture means, and the above passages prove that. “Every single person has sinned” and “all have sinned” do not equate. You are missing part of the equation.

Thanks,

Jorge.
 
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CheesusPowerKid:
It’s not so much something we’re *required *to do, it’s something we choose to do as part of what we believe. We believe that Mary is the most holy human, besides Christ of course, and that she resides in Heaven with Him…who better to ask to pray for us than the mother of God?
And remind me again why we can’t pray directly to God, since the whole point of Jesus dying on the cross was to take away the barrier of sin that blocked us from communication and a relationship with Him? Why ask for the prayers of Mary? Why ask for the prayers of the Saints? They don’t know you. They don’t know your situation like God does. Furthermore, they can’t do anything to help you. Why communicate with them (if that is even possible) when you can talk to the God that made you and knows what exactly you need for your situation. If Mary or a Saint can pray for you…since they don’t know your situation they could be praying wrongly…so I guess what I am saying is…God is the only one who needs to be prayed to. Praying to Saints and Mary just isn’t necessary.

Ryan
 
Why not pray to God directly? Why pray to Mary and the saints? These are all common questions to anyone outside the Catholic Faith looking in. My question to you would be “Why not?” We are certainly not required to pray to anyone other than God but when you have a whole network of saints who can put in a good word for you, why wouldn’t you “pull all strings”? Why do you ask people on earth to pray for you?

Source: saint-mike.org/apologetics/qa/Answers/Defending_Faith/p0209280034.html

For someone growing up without the benefits of a Catholic culture many of the beliefs we hold may seem foreign. Though we can explain and provide Scripture and reason to defend our beliefs, it is often difficult for others to grasp them without the whole Catholic context.

FOR VAUGHN - 1. (You ask) why we Catholics pay so much attention to Mary and the Saints. The simplest answer is that they are our spiritual family and best role models. Any grace that they have been given is only through Christ and their service of Him. Our “attention” to them is no more offensive to Jesus than praising a painting would offend the painter. Since all that is praiseworthy in the Saints (or any of us) is a reflection of Christ’s work in their lives, paying attention to them is praising the work of Christ. If you were in a room full of an artist’s masterpieces, would you ignore his work and only look at him? Ignoring the work of the Artist is more likely to offend Him than praising His work. Rather than taking the “limelight” from Christ, we are acknowledging those He shines His Light on the most.
  1. Why Mary? Of all the created creatures, only one was preserved pure enough to physically carry the Word Made Flesh and give her flesh for God Become Man. Going back to the previous paragraph, it is not any individual merit of her own that we venerate, it is the perfect work of Christ in the crowning Masterpiece of Creation.
**FOR APRIL (thanks for the compliments! I hope this answers your question) : As for the prayers of Mary and the Saints, read James 5:16-19 about the powerfulness of the prayers of “a holy man”. Those who have “fought the good fight” and “won the race” and attained Heaven would certainly be considered holy. If you are not sure that they care enough to pray for us, remember that Romans 8:35-39 states that not even death separates us from the love of Christ and it is that love that calls us to pray for one another. If the rich man in Jesus’ parable can look up from hell and plead for the cause of his brothers because he knows that they have rejected God, certainly those in Heaven can look down and see our problems and pray for us to God. **
  1. The question of Mary’s sinless state is often a stumbling block for those without the greater context of the fullness of the faith. Without going into the full-blown theological discussion, it is useful to examine one of the titles the Church gives to Mary: the Ark of the New Covenant. If you remember, the Ark of the Old Covenant was made to carry the signs of the Covenant: The Tablets of the Commandments (the Word of God), the Staff of Aaron (the priesthood), and the Manna (the Bread from Heaven). Jesus is the fulfillment of what these sign point to – He is the Word Made Flesh, the Eternal High Priest, and the Bread of Life. It is easy to see the correlation between the Covenants this way. But remember that the Ark of the Covenant was the holiest artifact of the Jews, to touch it without being ritually pure was to die. If you reread Exodus 37, you will see that the Ark was constructed of only the most pure materials. If the Ark that carried the signs had to be pure, how much more pure must be the Ark that carried the Reality pointed to by those signs.
 
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Delgadoajj:
Bill:

Please read the following explanations of the common misunderstanding of “all have sinned”:

Misunderstanding about Romans 3:23 (“All have sinned”)
Rom. 3:23 - Some Protestants use this verse “all have sinned” in an attempt to prove that Mary was also with sin. But "all have sinned " only means that all are subject to original sin. Mary was spared from original sin by God, not herself. The popular analogy is God let us fall in the mud puddle, and cleaned us up afterward through baptism. In Mary’s case, God did not let her enter the mud puddle.

Rom. 3:23 - “all have sinned” also refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. For example, infants, the retarded, and the senile cannot sin.

Rom. 3:23 - finally, “all have sinned,” but Jesus must be an exception to this rule. This means that Mary can be an exception as well. Note that the Greek word for all is “pantes.”

1 Cor. 15:22 - in Adam all (“pantes”) have died, and in Christ all (“pantes”) shall live. **This proves that “all” does not mean “every single one.” **This is because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven), and not all will go to heaven (because Jesus said so). :eek:

Rom. 5:12 - Paul says that death spread to all (“pantes”) men. Again, this proves that “all” does not mean “every single one” because death did not spread to all men (as we have seen with Enoch and Elijah). 😃

Rom. 5:19 - here Paul says “many (not all) were made sinners.” Paul uses “polloi,” not “pantes.” Is Paul contradicting what he said in Rom. 3:23? Of course not. Paul means that all are subject to original sin, but not all reject God. 👍

Rom. 3:10-11 - Protestants also use this verse to prove that all human beings are sinful and thus Mary must be sinful. But see Psalm 14 which is the basis of the verse.

Psalm 14 - this psalm does not teach that all humans are sinful. It only teaches that, among the wicked, all are sinful. The righteous continue to seek God. :cool:

Psalm 53:1-3 - “there is none that does good” expressly refers to those who have fallen away. Those who remain faithful do good, and Jesus calls such faithful people “good.”

Luke 18:19 - Jesus says, “No one is good but God alone.” But then in Matt. 12:35, Jesus also says “The good man out of his good treasure…” So Jesus says no one is good but God, and then calls another person good.

Rom. 9:11 - God distinguished between Jacob and Esau in the womb, before they sinned. Mary was also distinguished from the rest of humanity in the womb by being spared by God from original sin.

Luke 1:47 - Mary calls God her Savior. Some Protestants use this to denigrate Mary. Why? Of course God is Mary’s Savior! She was freed from original sin in the womb (unlike us who are freed from sin outside of the womb), but needed a Savior as much as the rest of humanity.

Luke 1:48 - Mary calls herself lowly. But any creature is lowly compared to God. For example, in Matt. 11:29, even Jesus says He is lowly in heart. Lowliness is a sign of humility, which is the greatest virtue of holiness, because it allows us to empty ourselves and receive the grace of God to change our sinful lives. 🙂

Bill, the blanket statement that “every single person has sinned” is just an oversimplification of what Scripture means, and the above passages prove that. “Every single person has sinned” and “all have sinned” do not equate. You are missing part of the equation.

Thanks,

Jorge.
Is the writer of those above Catholic?
 
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april_hosen:
HI,
When I first came to this site it was soley for research reasons. I never would of thought in a lifetime I’d be considering what I am now. I’m beginning to believe God is callingme into the Catholic Churchbut there’s still some things that just dont make sense. I was wondering if you guys have found any BIG reasons on why I shouldnt go ahead and do this? Thanks for your time!
Well, April, what say you? Hopefully, some of the questions you had have been answered. I really believe that any apparent questions on “why not to become Catholic” can be answered. With a heart open to the invitations of the Holy Spirit, a mind ready to use the gift of reasoning, and a humble spirit, it can be done. 👍

Love,

Jorge.
 
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RyanL:
Bill,

Is it your contention that SIDS babies and the mentally impaired commit sin?

RyanL
The wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23). Do not all die?

Your commitment to your doctrine keeps you from seeing the plain meaning of Scripture. What do want me to do? Ignore what the word of God says just because it makes you feel uneasy. It is good to be made uneasy by His word. It is called conviction. I know that sin and its effects are not pleasant, but the statements made by God’s prophets, Son, and apostles are clear.
 
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sonseeker:
Is the writer of those above Catholic?
Bill:

I really don’t know for a fact, but if he/she is not, they are awful close to being Catholic. 🙂

Take care,

Jorge.
 
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Delgadoajj:
Bill:

I really don’t know for a fact, but if he/she is not, they are awful close to being Catholic. 🙂

Take care,

Jorge.
Thank you for your answer Jorge.

Bill
 
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Vaughn7107:
And remind me again why we can’t pray directly to God, since the whole point of Jesus dying on the cross was to take away the barrier of sin that blocked us from communication and a relationship with Him? Why ask for the prayers of Mary? Why ask for the prayers of the Saints? They don’t know you. They don’t know your situation like God does. Furthermore, they can’t do anything to help you. Why communicate with them (if that is even possible) when you can talk to the God that made you and knows what exactly you need for your situation. If Mary or a Saint can pray for you…since they don’t know your situation they could be praying wrongly…so I guess what I am saying is…God is the only one who needs to be prayed to. Praying to Saints and Mary just isn’t necessary.
Why do you only want to do what is necessary? We are part of the Body of Christ, and this includes all the saints of all times and places. Devotion to the Blessed Virgin and other glorified saints enriches our relationship with the Mystical body of Christ. It isn’t about what is “necessary.” It’s about a family relationship.

Edwin
 
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sonseeker:
The wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23). Do not all die?

Your commitment to your doctrine keeps you from seeing the plain meaning of Scripture. What do want me to do? Ignore what the word of God says? I know that sin and its effects are not pleasant, but the statements made by God’s prophets, Son, and apostles are clear.
I think that you’re just scratching the surface when making this affirmation, with all due respect.

If the blanket statement (all have sinned) is the case, then it would apply to Jesus, who is God. There is no one more human than God.

Sacred Scriptures have to be read in light of Church Tradition, whence they came from, otherwise it will be difficult to penetrate into Scripture’s true meaning.

Jorge.
 
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Contarini:
Why do you only want to do what is necessary? We are part of the Body of Christ, and this includes all the saints of all times and places. Devotion to the Blessed Virgin and other glorified saints enriches our relationship with the Mystical body of Christ. It isn’t about what is “necessary.” It’s about a family relationship.

Edwin
Yes. If it was about what is necessary, we wouldn’t even exist. Nothing would exist, since God lack nothing. It’s about Love, Family relationships, etc. This does not end at death, for God is God of the Living.

Jorge. 🙂
 
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