Question for Protestants: How do you interpret John 3: 4-5?

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My comment if you will has to include more of the text than 2 verses.
1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
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First we see Jesus simply tell Nicodemus “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” period thats the end.
But Nicodemus associates born again with natural birth. “How can a man be born when he is old? a question Jesus answers, water has nothing to do with the process its an reply to Nicodemus question.
Then the verse in question : “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Jesus then follows with ; That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again. Born of flesh is the metaphor of water, that was not in the first reply from Jesus (unless one is born again) it was not mentioned until Nicodemus asked the question. Spirit and Spirit are self explaining and He ends again with simply; ‘You must be born again.’
The water / flesh is distinctly different and one does not give give rise to the other. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Even if you want to force baptism into the text Jesus clearly says it does not give rise to the Spirit.

To me Nicodemus associates born again with a second natural birth, Jesus responds to it as water, flesh, natural birth and the Spirit, born again. Then further clarifies that flesh and Spirit are distinctly different the flesh and water do not give birth the Spirit.

In John 15:3
Jesus says that “3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you”.

I seen a reference to Peter 3:21
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
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The part in parentheses is in complete agreement with what Jesus said above, that the washing of the flesh is nothing but the “answer of a good conscience toward God” is the Spirit inside. The cleansing and renewing of your mind and heart that the Holy Spirit my be received “born again”

Romans 12
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
 
There is always a distinction between water and Spirit baptism. Scripture tells us that John came baptizing in water but that, “There is one who will come after me. . . He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit” (Mk. 1:7-8; Mt. 3:11; Jn. 1:33). The flesh and the spirit are two different properties, two different things. So there are two births- one of the flesh and the other of the spirit that comes from God. John 3:6-7 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

The term born of water is used only once by John but the term born of God (the Spirit) he uses numerous times.

I Jn 4:7: “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” This is the love of God shed in a believers heart by believing the gospel.

I Jn 5:1: “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is** born of God**, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.” This of course has to do with the gospel.

I Jn 5:4: “ For whatever is **born of God **overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-- our faith” The new nature of the spirit of God has our affections change toward God and not toward the fallen world.

I Jn 3:9 Whoever has been **born of God **does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. ”

I Jn 5:18: “We know that whoever is **born of God **does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.”

There is life change where one lives more in righteousness than they do in the old way of life in sin. John explains this in I Jn 2:29: “If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him” And Paul teaches this through the book of Romans especially chapter 6-7
 
light1house said:
There is always a distinction between water and Spirit baptism. Scripture tells us that John came baptizing in water but that, “There is one who will come after me. . . He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit” (Mk. 1:7-8; Mt. 3:11; Jn. 1:33). The flesh and the spirit are two different properties, two different things. So there are two births- one of the flesh and the other of the spirit that comes from God. John 3:6-7 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

The term born of water is used only once by John but the term born of God (the Spirit) he uses numerous times.

I Jn 4:7: “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” This is the love of God shed in a believers heart by believing the gospel.

I Jn 5:1: “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is** born of God**, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.” This of course has to do with the gospel.

I Jn 5:4: “ For whatever is **born of God **overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-- our faith” The new nature of the spirit of God has our affections change toward God and not toward the fallen world.

I Jn 3:9 Whoever has been **born of God **does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. ”

I Jn 5:18: “We know that whoever is **born of God **does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.”

There is life change where one lives more in righteousness than they do in the old way of life in sin. John explains this in I Jn 2:29: “If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him” And Paul teaches this through the book of Romans especially chapter 6-7
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If the NT is not concerned with water baptism, then why does Jesus tell his disciples to go out and baptize in all nations? Why would they need to baptize if all you needed to do was to hear the Word and be “spirit baptized”? And, why in Acts 2:38 does it say to “Repent, and be baptized for the remission of your sins, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit”? That verse says quite clearly that baptism is necessary to remit sins. All through out Acts in in fact, you find baptisms, using water for the act of salvation. Yes, it is an outward sign, but Peter says it is an anti-type that “saves us”. He is making it clear that it is not a bath to remove the dirt, but our sign to God that we wish to be cleansed of our sins so we do not have to worry about the sins of our past, a clear conscience. If water baptism wasn’t necessary, why would the Apostles still do it? Why would people still be water baptized?

If the Old Law was no longer necessary to follow, and they no longer do so because it was unnecessary, then why would they continue to baptize in water if all you had to do was have faith?

Faith without works is dead. Satan believes in God, but that does not save him, now does it? You have to show to God that you are will. He makes them (works) necessary as conditions to get to salvation.

If I was left an enormous sum of money, I would have to go fill out the paperwork and give relevant banking information, and call the IRS, and all that good jazz, just to be able to hold the money. Now, if I didn’t care about it, and I didn’t want it, and I didn’t go to get it, I simply would not be able to get the money. God is a lot like that. If I was given the opportunity to be with Him in heaven, with a few stipulations, and I didn’t want to fulfill those stipulations, I simply would not get to be with Him in heaven. It is obvious that baptism is one of those stipulations. It is seen far too many times in the NT for it not to be.

And the Early Church Father’s understood this too. You show me ONE ECF that didn’t believe it, and I will give you a consolation prize.
 
kobudodave said:
If the NT is not concerned with water baptism, then why does Jesus tell his disciples to go out and baptize in all nations? Why would they need to baptize if all you needed to do was to hear the Word and be “spirit baptized”? And, why in Acts 2:38 does it say to “Repent, and be baptized for the remission of your sins, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit”? That verse says quite clearly that baptism is necessary to remit sins. All through out Acts in in fact, you find baptisms, using water for the act of salvation. Yes, it is an outward sign, but Peter says it is an anti-type that “saves us”. He is making it clear that it is not a bath to remove the dirt, but our sign to God that we wish to be cleansed of our sins so we do not have to worry about the sins of our past, a clear conscience. If water baptism wasn’t necessary, why would the Apostles still do it? Why would people still be water baptized?

If the Old Law was no longer necessary to follow, and they no longer do so because it was unnecessary, then why would they continue to baptize in water if all you had to do was have faith?

Faith without works is dead. Satan believes in God, but that does not save him, now does it? You have to show to God that you are will. He makes them (works) necessary as conditions to get to salvation.

If I was left an enormous sum of money, I would have to go fill out the paperwork and give relevant banking information, and call the IRS, and all that good jazz, just to be able to hold the money. Now, if I didn’t care about it, and I didn’t want it, and I didn’t go to get it, I simply would not be able to get the money. God is a lot like that. If I was given the opportunity to be with Him in heaven, with a few stipulations, and I didn’t want to fulfill those stipulations, I simply would not get to be with Him in heaven. It is obvious that baptism is one of those stipulations. It is seen far too many times in the NT for it not to be.

And the Early Church Father’s understood this too. You show me ONE ECF that didn’t believe it, and I will give you a consolation prize.
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Did I say the NT is not concerned with baptism, or did I say that being born of the Spirit “baptism” and water baptism are not the same.
If you look in Acts you will see that they had HEARD the word and were moved by the Spirit, the result was and action that testified to the work that already been done. If you wish to contest Jesus when He says “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”. I won’t infringe on your belief or rights, but if you try to equate the cutting of flesh in circumcision or water baptism brings your heart and mind into an understanding of the truth of Gods word I think you are in error. Just as you see in Acts they first heard the word then were baptized.

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith without works is dead, that is true. So if faith comes from hearing the word and In John 15:3
Jesus says that, You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you". The Spirit then resides in you, then fruits and works are manifest. That gives a greater understanding of this next verse. If my words abide in you and you abide in me ask what ever you wish. You see first come the words in you, then the action that you respond in, AND YOU ABIDE IN ME. You are now a new man doing as the Spirit leads you.

Jn 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. ”
 
kobudodave said:
And the Early Church Father’s understood this too. You show me ONE ECF that didn’t believe it, and I will give you a consolation prize.
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Im not to clear on your ECF concept, I dont much follow the crowd. But I will repeat that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Carefully read the verse below Romans 4 and you will see that Abraham was justified while he was still uncircumcised, And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised. Now just replace circumcised with baptism. The seal in the NT is the Holy Spirit. And you will see that… "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. By Gods grace (free) threw faith (hearing the word) and that not of yourselves. Now go circumcise your self, or baptize your self or both. But remember the work has already been done in Jesus. And preforming these actions is an out ward sign.

Ephesians 4
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.
Romans 4
9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.
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You must acknowledge that Baptism is also necessary for salvation.

Mark 16:16 says “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.”

Other bible texts show us that baptism as something aside from just believing. If you look at Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47; 6:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5 you will see that all of these people who believed, **afterward **were baptized. Paul also saw the necessity of being baptized. In Acts 9:18, Paul is baptized AFTER his conversion on the road to Damascus.

Peter, in Acts 10:44-49 says “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people”, making a clear connection with the water and baptism.

There are far more examples, but it is unnecessary to go through them all.

You see, the two go hand in hand. It is shown by example. We have the direct example to be baptized, as well as the direct example that we must believe. Two conditions for salvation. One not being separated from the other. You must have BOTH for salvation to occur. And that doesn’t even account for the other requirements. That is only two of them. You must also bear fruit, lest you wither and die, or be pruned from the vine altogether. Rom. 2:6-10 and verse 13 tell us that God will judge every man according to his works. So, our salvation also depends on how we cooperate with God’s grace.

Christ even gave us an example. His own baptism, with water no less. Ours is different, but he did it on precedent. He gave us an example to follow. And he tells us to follow Him.

I do not need to justify myself to you. I have shown you in the scriptures where Baptism is necessary. It is a requirement. Not optional. You have shown me where faith is necessary, but that goes without saying. But it is not faith alone that will save you. Faith alone is dead. Works come out of your faith, but only if you WANT them to. You can have faith and not do ANYTHING with it. That is why faith without works is dead. You reap what you sow. Nowhere in the Bible does it paint us a picture that just accepting Jesus as our personal Lord and savior will bring us salvation. Not only must you accept His grace, but you must act on it. And you must follow in His footsteps. Acceptance is only part of it. Jesus was baptized, so must we be.
 
To get back to the OP’s question, I am no longer a Protestant, but I know how I used to feel about that passage, and at the present, I don’t feel any different about that now than I did then.

I feel this comes down to a different question that may help answer the previous question; What does Baptism do? The NT shows us that Baptism isn’t a removal of dirt from the flesh, but it is a symbolic washing, a sign if you will, of your conversion. But it goes beyond that as well. Look at Romans 6:4. Through Baptism, we are buried with Christ, in His death. We shed our old selves by being “buried” to come in direct spiritual contact with Christ’s blood. His blood washes us and makes us clean, as His blood is that which purchased us, and seals us to Christ in His everlasting covenant.

So, when we “die” with Christ through baptism, a “New Creature” emerges, one purchased from the death of Original Sin, that is a spiritual death, and we are reborn in that sense. So we are born of the water of baptism, made new. And then we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, to help us lead our lives and to help us do the will of God.

If you take John 3:4-5 and apply it to all other teachings on the subject, you can formulate the entire picture.

Just because a verse doesn’t contain the fullness of an idea, doesn’t mean that you can follow ONLY that verse and be fine. You have to take the commands of the NT at it’s fullest. And one of those commands is to listen to God’s chosen leaders. If they have taught from the earliest of times, since the 1st century, that baptism is required for salvation, then who are we to argue with that? They are God’s chosen leaders. And since even the apostles, such as Paul, tells new converts to “Arise, and be Baptized, and wash away your sins”, how can we complain. Just do it!
 
I agree with your comment about taking a verse and ignoring others. Then why did John say that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit. Why did he also say I have need to be baptized by you. I dont disagree with water baptism I disagree that it is the same baptism of the Spirit. Water baptism for the repentance of sins (the flesh). The born again baptism is of the Spirit (the spirit). Putting the two together and equating them the same is not what I read or see. As I pointed out above the same was true for Abraham and circumcision.

The catholic church as 3 different baptisms, I see only 2 one of the flesh and one of the Spirit. Distinctly different.
ole concept that was talked about.
I also want to add that only reading verse 4 and 5 does not express the whole concept that was talked about. Its like listen to only a part of a conversation and making a decision about the whole thing.
 
light1house said:
I agree with your comment about taking a verse and ignoring others. Then why did John say that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit. Why did he also say I have need to be baptized by you. I dont disagree with water baptism I disagree that it is the same baptism of the Spirit. Water baptism for the repentance of sins (the flesh). The born again baptism is of the Spirit (the spirit). Putting the two together and equating them the same is not what I read or see. As I pointed out above the same was true for Abraham and circumcision.

The catholic church as 3 different baptisms, I see only 2 one of the flesh and one of the Spirit. Distinctly different.
ole concept that was talked about.
I also want to add that only reading verse 4 and 5 does not express the whole concept that was talked about. Its like listen to only a part of a conversation and making a decision about the whole thing.
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I see better what you are saying now. You are correct in the sense that they are not the same, though they are part of the same conversion process. The Catholic Church doesn’t view the gift of the Holy Spirit as a separate baptism, because when we are baptized by water, the Holy Spirit is also poured out on us. Though they are different in matter. The water looses sin, and the conferring of the Holy Spirit at the same time pours out into and onto us.

The three baptisms that you mention in the RCC are biblical. They are the Baptism by Water, the Baptism of Desire, and the Baptism of Blood. The Baptism of Water is the normal means of salvific baptism, it is the Sacrament of Baptism. The Baptism by Desire is when you truly in your heart intend to be baptized as soon as you possibly can. Now, this could mean that you are in the process of being taught the things you need to know before entering the church, or it could mean that you are in the car on your way to your water baptism and you die before you get there. This is part of the mercy and grace of God that only makes sense of a God of grace and mercy. Baptism of Blood is where you die for the faith, even if you have not been baptized before. It is much like the baptism of desire, but requires the giving of life to defend the faith.

I have to go to work, but I will post some scripture to give examples. And also, since the Church has the ability to bind and loose, and to determine doctrine through further revelation of scriptural insight (interpretation) due to apostolic authority, these can all be allowed. But since not all of you believe or understand this, I will provide scripture when I get home.

God Bless,
David
 
well what is born of flesh is sinful born by Holy Ghost is the new life you are new with life in Jesus
Pouring water over someone does not save trusting in Jesus does

John chapt 5/6 says this is work of God that you belive on one who God sent who is that?
God say no one come to father unless they are drawn by God
God draws by sending out his word,faith comes by hearing (if have ears to hear)
Kind of mind blowing
 
lep said:
well what is born of flesh is sinful born by Holy Ghost is the new life you are new with life in Jesus
Pouring water over someone does not save trusting in Jesus does

John chapt 5/6 says this is work of God that you belive on one who God sent who is that?
God say no one come to father unless they are drawn by God
God draws by sending out his word,faith comes by hearing (if have ears to hear)
Kind of mind blowing
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You still can’t deny the fact that baptism is part of the salvation process. If he tells you that you need to be baptized, then you NEED to be baptized. It is that simple. Like I said, you have to take the Bible as a whole, or not at all.
 
Works of the flesh profits nothing not by might but by the spirit says God
Walk in the spirit there is no law aginst it
Faith without works is dead you say and you say right But who is doing these works only someone walking in the spirit. It is not you doing it because the flesh is dead the flesh is sinThats what James is getting at I will show you my faith (or fruits of the Spirit or proof he is saved by the works he is doing under the spirits leading)
The spirit is promting James to these works a dead man can not follow God (dead in his sins that is )
You say you belive but no fruit of spirit no new birth no nothing Thats how we can test our self to see if we are in the faith

Faith plus works do you really think that is what God is saying in NT
I thought God said salvation is a gift that no one should bost Or I can bost in the faith and works I do
Paul bosted in the LORD not his flesh
A person who is not born of the spirit may walk with God for a time but most cases he will fall away

Of course you should do what God says Baptise,Break Bread,follow all the commands,
God will lead those who trust Him into the correct path (but by the spirit) what power comes through baptisum?What power comes by faith (God gave rightousness to old test.Abraham by what baptisum? He was ready to sac.his son?Look it up.
John says Chap 5/6 This is work of God (not man)that you belive his son Many walked away at that saying.Why?Because of Man pride we want to say I did this that to be saved
not belive in God it is not about us and works!
 
lep said:
Works of the flesh profits nothing not by might but by the spirit says God
Walk in the spirit there is no law aginst it
Faith without works is dead you say and you say right But who is doing these works only someone walking in the spirit. It is not you doing it because the flesh is dead the flesh is sinThats what James is getting at I will show you my faith (or fruits of the Spirit or proof he is saved by the works he is doing under the spirits leading)
The spirit is promting James to these works a dead man can not follow God (dead in his sins that is )
You say you belive but no fruit of spirit no new birth no nothing Thats how we can test our self to see if we are in the faith

Faith plus works do you really think that is what God is saying in NT
I thought God said salvation is a gift that no one should bost Or I can bost in the faith and works I do
Paul bosted in the LORD not his flesh
A person who is not born of the spirit may walk with God for a time but most cases he will fall away

Of course you should do what God says Baptise,Break Bread,follow all the commands,
God will lead those who trust Him into the correct path (but by the spirit) what power comes through baptisum?What power comes by faith (God gave rightousness to old test.Abraham by what baptisum? He was ready to sac.his son?Look it up.
John says Chap 5/6 This is work of God (not man)that you belive his son Many walked away at that saying.Why?Because of Man pride we want to say I did this that to be saved
not belive in God it is not about us and works!
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Abraham’s righteousness came from his utter trust in God, and God’s acceptance of that trust.

Jesus tells us to follow Him. And what did Jesus do? He was baptized. And then later He died, and arose. If we are to follow Him, we must follow in His footsteps. His footsteps lead us to baptism. Just as they lead us to a lot of things, even dying and arising. Our trust in Christ is made testimony to God when we follow Him. And the first part of beginning to trust Christ is hearing the Word of God. And the Word of God tells us to be baptized. Abraham was willing to kill his son, because God told him to. Abraham put his trust in God, as we are to put our trust in Christ.

Regardless of what we term Baptism to do for us, we must trust in Christ, knowing that baptism is necessary, because it follows in Christ’s own example.
 
bibleman47 said:
Hello all, forgive me the delay, I have been gone from my work, I am a Manager at a Pizza Hut, for a week as my father has cancer and went to go see him in Los Angeles CA, I live in San Antonio TX, and I worked most of the day, and that’s why I did not reply sooner.
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I am sorry about your dad. You all are in my prayers.
No it is not accepted Baptist teaching on the nature of being “born again”.To be saved one says a sinners prayer of repentance and acceptance of Christ as your personal savior. Nowhere in Scripture can this be found, it was only when Charles Finney in the mid 19th cent. started his revival meetings and giant alter calls came into practice did this method of “salvation” come into being. Prior to this, the Reformers had ther individual examine his/her life, heart, emotions. mind and outlook to see if the person was “saved”, not “accepting” Christ, but if your heart knew that Christ accepted you. Sadly, many of the Baptist teachings today are simply traditions and what I call doctrinal history, believing something because your forefathers believed it.
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As former fundamentalist/non-denominational/charismatic/evangelical/AG/ Presbyterian/Congregationalist (I have hit them all!), one huge realization hit me when I was making my journey home to the RCC. There is no place in scripture that says anything about asking Jesus into your heart. I sat through countless of altar calls saying that is all one had to do and voila! he or she was saved forever(unless they were AG).
I looked and looked… it just isn’t there.

May the peace of God be with you,

Pam
 
kobudodave said:
You still can’t deny the fact that baptism is part of the salvation process. If he tells you that you need to be baptized, then you NEED to be baptized. It is that simple. Like I said, you have to take the Bible as a whole, or not at all.
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Ephesians 2:8, 9; Romans 3:20, 28; Galatians 2:16 and James 2:24; Matthew 19:16-21
  1. Saved by grace
    1. (Ephesians 2:8-9) - “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast.”
    2. (Rom. 3:20, 28) - “because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin…28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.”
    3. (Galatians 2:16) - “nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.”
  2. Saved by works
    1. (James 2:24) - “You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.”
    2. (Matthew 19:16-17) - "And behold, one came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
God does not want a faith that is empty and hypocritical. James 2 is talking about those who “say” that they have faith but have no works. Therefore, people cannot tell if they are true believers or not, because there is no fruit. That kind of a faith is useless and is not a saving faith. True faith results in true works.

In Matthew 19:16-17, Jesus was speaking to a Lawyer who was self-righteous since he wanted to put Jesus to the test (Luke 10:25). He asked what he must do in order to obtain eternal life and Jesus responded with the requirements of keeping the commandments. If a person keeps all of the commandments, it would seem that they could obtain eternal life. However, nobody can keep all of the commandments. Therefore, Jesus’ comments to this man show this man that justification can only be by faith since no one can keep all of the commandments. This is why it says in Eph. 2:8 that we are saved by grace through faith. Also, Romans 3:20,28 and Galatians 2:16 tells us that no one is justified in the sight of God by the law; that is, by the works that he can do.

There is no contradiction at all when we examine the contexts. We are justified by faith but that faith must be alive (James 2). The Law cannot save us because we are incapable of keeping it (Matthew 19:16-17). Therefore, salvation is by grace through faith
 
Catholic view seems more bap. than bap.Plus your Church of Christ back ground heavy into bap.Jesus was fullfiling all Gods requirments when He was bap
Faith plus works is what you are preaching that you NEED to be bap
You NEED to be born of the spirit then come to be bap Jesus did all kinds of works to make way for us to do what God demands then sins were placed on Him
But when you say got to have faith but then do something to prove yourself to God all you prove is sin work it is like water and oil unmixable
THE WORK of God is to belive in his Son John5/6 that is what pleases God that is the KEY He will cause new life to be ours when we belive (that faith you use to belive is from God)
He is sourse not Bap.the whole NT is command so really is bap equal to whole NT and all it teaches (God prefers obediance to sacrifice) why is bap/com more important than all NT
Bap is easy one time act com is easy do as often
Now do all other things in NT not to easy in fact Jesus compares to caring cross daily

bap is to help me with walk with God 20 yrs after fact I forgot what did yesterday
pouring water or walking daily
God wants us to do that bap/com no doubt but need to do to be saved ?

God says add vertues to faith in 2 nd Peter in other words grow in faith
Heb 11 All about faith Faith is key faith /spirit causes growth

Any way Bro I guess thats lot of diff between cath/protestor anyway i see cath channel i learn alot like Jesus said if not against me then for me there is lot on both sides to learn
 
Thanks for sharing those great verses! You are right. We are saved by faith that is lived out through our works. For faith without works is dead (which is why Martin Luther wanted to take the book of James out of the Bible–he hated this one!)

I spent years teaching Bible courses. I can’t count the number of times I have read the Bible all the way through. But I NEVER ever saw this passage until the Lord pointed it out to me on the journey to the Church.

1 Peter 3:20-22 (New International Version)
20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[a] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

I found that to be a shocker!!

When I was a protestant I never believed it was baptism that saved a person. But look at this passage…
Noah’s family was saved through water. “and this water symbolizes baptism that saves you also-- not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God” and so on…

I was flabberghasted! And now I am amazed and in awe of His grace and love and how he brought this stubborn person into His church…
 
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