Question for Protestants: How do you interpret John 3: 4-5?

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There is NO mention in the bible that the baptism of the Holy Spirit gives salvation.

There are accounts where the HS had been given BEFORE baptism, as well as after. The account in Acts 10, you see Cornelius the Centurion and his family filled with the HS before they were baptized. But if they were already “saved”, why did they still need the water baptism? For Peter said “Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water?” .
Scriptures speak of Baptized with Water … and Reborn by the H.S. Man does the Baptizing, and Christ Confirms with H.S. [whenever certain conditions are met].

Paul also received H.S. with confirmation of hands, and shortly thereafter consented to water baptism. Ordinarily, if one receives H.S. first … it is inconsistent to think they would decline commandment of Christ to undergo water baptism.

However, there may be a delay before baptism occurs. Just as there may be a delay between one’s water baptism, and later getting ‘confirmed’ by Christ with H.S.
 
You yourself should heed the advice above that you earlier quoted. It’d keep from saying nonsense such as this:

You’ll find that heeding the aforesaid advice improves not only your own character but also the moral weight of your witness. Your fuzzy logic and unclear syntax also do not help your case. For example, “catholics” is not a “religion” and it is silly to say otherwise.

– Mark L. Chance.
If you think think is the only case of judgment in this forum you have very selective read skills.
I would be willing to wager I can find 10 catholics judgments to every protestant one.
Is it a rule of thumb when someone offends you here its open season on poking fun at them? Is that supposed to be intelligent or childish?
 
Since when does disagreeing with something count as a judgment? What has this world come to, when people are called “intolerant” when you just simply disagree with something?

Sorry… Had an argument earlier with my wife about this…
 
If you think think is the only case of judgment in this forum you have very selective read skills.
My reading skills are excellent, but thanks for your concern.
I would be willing to wager I can find 10 catholics judgments to every protestant one.
You might be right. Grant that are just for the sake of argument. How does this excuse your churlish behavior?

– Mark L. Chance.
 
I’ve been a member of a Missionary church, Assembly of God church, and a independent church. They all believed in water baptism as a requirement.
A****. I am just curious: Why some of you, people, change churches as one changes T-shirts? Doesn’t this say that you are dissatisfied with Protestantism? Why don’t you turn back the Reformation and return to the Catholic fold? Is not Catholic Church the true Church, One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic? Is she not founded on Peter the Rock by Christ’s solemn admission? It seems to me that Christianity needs to take a deep breath and start reuniting! Jesus insisted that the Father’s will is that “they be one, as We are One.” He meant all Christians! The Byzantine schisms and the Rreformation were rebellious movements, started by rebellious people. It is high time to wipe out all divisions, so that we can all worship in one spirit, as brothers and sisters in Christ!
 
A****. I am just curious: Why some of you, people, change churches as one changes T-shirts? Doesn’t this say that you are dissatisfied with Protestantism? Why don’t you turn back the Reformation and return to the Catholic fold? Is not Catholic Church the true Church, One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic? Is she not founded on Peter the Rock by Christ’s solemn admission? It seems to me that Christianity needs to take a deep breath and start reuniting! Jesus insisted that the Father’s will is that “they be one, as We are One.” He meant all Christians! The Byzantine schisms and the Rreformation were rebellious movements, started by rebellious people. It is high time to wipe out all divisions, so that we can all worship in one spirit, as brothers and sisters in Christ!
Thank you for your voice of rationality. As one of those former “church-hoppers” I can tell you that each one had something good about it ( a little bit of the truth). At one point I would have been horrified if anyone suggest I be Catholic. Each of the churches had good people and hypocrites…just like ours…But I will tell you this; Although each one had a part of the truth, none of them fulfilled Jesus’s commission like the Catholic Church. And of course, they really can’t since they all come from roots of rebellion, as you said.
It wasn’t still I stopped fighting the Holy Spirit and started looking honestly with an open heart about what the Church really teaches and not what I THOUGHT it teaches, did I find rest in the journey… because what I found was the beautiful gift that Jesus gave us through his apostles. What peace I have had since then!! 🙂
 
baptism of water doesn’t do anything it is just a sign of one’s conversion of what takes place within a person’s heart, i was baptized in the ‘church’ as an infant and nothing happen to me even did my first catechism and still nothing.
 
Just on the original post re “c sections” not existing. According to the historian Pliny the Elder, a Caesarian section comes from the time when Julius Caesar’s mother died giving birth and a roman soldier cut him out of his mother’s womb with his sword arounf 100BC and I’m sure this had happened before that.

God bless,

Jimmy Two Guns
 
baptism of water doesn’t do anything it is just a sign of one’s conversion of what takes place within a person’s heart, i was baptized in the ‘church’ as an infant and nothing happen to me even did my first catechism and still nothing.
But Scripture is clear that baptism does do something. The references are numerous and found throughout this thread.

And you did “first catechism”? You do realize that statement’s basically meaningless within a Catholic context?

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Thank you for your voice of rationality. As one of those former “church-hoppers” I can tell you that each one had something good about it ( a little bit of the truth). At one point I would have been horrified if anyone suggest I be Catholic. Each of the churches had good people and hypocrites…just like ours…But I will tell you this; Although each one had a part of the truth, none of them fulfilled Jesus’s commission like the Catholic Church. And of course, they really can’t since they all come from roots of rebellion, as you said.
It wasn’t still I stopped fighting the Holy Spirit and started looking honestly with an open heart about what the Church really teaches and not what I THOUGHT it teaches, did I find rest in the journey… because what I found was the beautiful gift that Jesus gave us through his apostles. What peace I have had since then!! 🙂
What a wonderful post! I must vent some thoughts::o
*The devil is in the details! Vade retro me, Satana! Get the “H” behind me Satan! Get over the petty infighting, backstabbing! Being baptized can be likened somewhat to getting a driver’s license or a birth certificate. It documents or authenticates, to a degree, a certain type of attainment of status. It is a very social/family thing in most Catholic parishes or congregations. We are social creatures and need objective reminders of our commitment and achievements. Baptism by water is a reminder that, as a chemist would say, but the ancients knew without saying, water is a very important constituent of and is necessary for maintaining life and growth. God created water and therefore it is GOOD. It cleanses, it is the Universal Solvent. We need it. We should be ever grateful for it and be responsible stewards of it every day! The rain falls on the just and the unjust! The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away! Blessed be the Name of the Lord! To “H” with all your quibbling about the specks in each others’ eyes! Get down to Earth (seek humility) and get your fingernails dirty in the garden! God made the dirt, too, so treat it responsibly! Baptism by water, infant or adult is a visible form of commitment to your faith. It is not a one time thing, your Love of God is not a three-letter pleasure related word (sex) but a ten-letter word: C O M M I T M E N T. Commitment is not a momentary thing, nor an afternoon of delight; it is 24/7, 365.25. It is eternal! *
 
So, back to the original topic. I feel that the passage in John 3: 4-5 is speaking of the water baptism, of dying in Christ, and being Born a New Creature through Christ, as well as the birth of your new spirit in Christ. Now, spirit and soul should not necessarily viewed as the same thing. The spirit of giving is obviously different than the spirit of killing. We are born with a stained spirit, one of sin, and through being “born again” in water baptism, we are given a new purpose, a new spirit, to live a God filled life.
A. Jesus knew what He was doing when He said: “Baptize them in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit” (Mt 28, 19).
Once baptized, a Christian’s heart and conscience becomes a sanctuary where the Trinity dwells. One cannot imagine a Christian without this Grace of having all Three Divine Persons present in himself or herself. The Spirit is essential if one is to have a new life in Christ! Moreover, thanks to Baptism, all sins committed afterwards can be repented and forgiven, through the Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation. . A conscience cannot be exercised properly, and the heart cannot love rightly, without Baptism. Also, Baptism imprints the Trinitarian mark on the heart and conscience making us legitimate children of the Heavenly Father. This gives us a new dignity unmatched by other religions, and this is why Baptism is so essential for Christians
 
baptism of water doesn’t do anything it is just a sign of one’s conversion of what takes place within a person’s heart, i was baptized in the ‘church’ as an infant and nothing happen to me even did my first catechism and still nothing.
The Sacrament of Baptism

Many people believe that baptism is merely a symbolic act that one performs before the community of believers as an outward sign of an inward decision to accept Christ as one’s “personal Lord and Savior”. Is this view biblical or does God view baptism differently? Let’s see what the Bible has to say.

Baptism Commanded by Jesus

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.”

Some argue that in this verse, “born of water” refers to the placenta fluid of physical birth. However, there is no scriptural basis for this interpretation. Instead, as the references from Ezekiel and the New Testament passages make clear, the “water” connected with the Holy Spirit is the water of the sacrament of baptism – not that of physical birth. Jesus’ words, understood properly, tell us that unless one is “born of baptism and the Spirit” he cannot enter the kingdom of God. This point is underscored by the fact that Jesus and the disciples went out to baptize immediately following this verse.

Titus 3:5
He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit

Rebirth? As in “born again”? Renewal by the Holy Spirit? Isn’t that regeneration?

Matthew 28:19
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

In this passage containing the very last instructions Jesus gave His disciples, we see how important baptism was to Him. He did not say, “Go and make disciples of all nations, teaching them to accept me as their personal Lord and Savior and baptizing them as an outward symbol of this inward acceptance…”

Baptism Saves

Mark 16:16
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Romans 6:3-4
Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

1 Peter 3:18-22
18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Baptism Washes Away Sin

Acts 2:38-39
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

At Pentecost, Peter told the crowd to “be baptized…for the forgiveness of…sins.” After that, “you will receive…the Holy Spirit”. Once again, we see the elements of Water and Spirit…just as Ezekiel prophesied. Note too, that this promise is for “you and your children” – a clear endorsement of infant baptism.

Acts 22:16
16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name. (Acts 22:16)

(cont.)
 
Baptism Makes Us Part of the Body of Christ

1 Corinthians 12:13
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Galatians 3:26-27
26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Colossians 2:11-12
11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

Baptism is Related to Impartation of the Holy Spirit

Ezekiel 36:25-27
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

In this Old Testament passage, the prophet clearly speaks of the sacrament of baptism that was to come. Notice the elements: water is sprinkled, the person is actually made clean (not merely imputed to be or called clean), and they receive a new spirit along with the gift of the Holy Spirit. Ezekiel makes a connection between washing in Water and the receipt of the Spirit of God.

However, sometimes when the Old Testament is referenced, people will say, “Well, we follow the New Testament.” in an attempt to dismiss an Old Testament passage. They need to remember the following words from the New Testament:

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Consequently, we can see that all of the Bible must be taken into account when we seek to understand doctrine.

From these passages, we can see that baptism is commanded by Jesus, that baptism saves us, that baptism washes away sin, that baptism makes us part of the body of Christ, and that water baptism is connected very closely with the receipt of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, baptism can hardly be viewed as a merely symbolic act.
 
Speaking as a belligerent Roman Catholic who believes in his Faith and the teachings of Holy Mother Church, I think we must consider the words in these verses in the context which they were uttered.

When Christ said “Except a man be born again (notice no mention of water or spirit yet) he cannot see the Kingdom of God”, He provokes the reply, doubtless made with a smile - “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter again into his mother’s womb and be born?” Now Nicodemus, “a man of the pharisees” wasn’t stupid. This was a rhetorical question, but one which Jesus turned around to give his answer -“Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God”

This is a record of a personal conversation between Christ and Nicodemus, when Jesus replies to a specific question put to him. In this context, it is possible that Christ was saying at this particular time, to this particular person, “Of course you can’t be born from your mother again. You must be born (doesn’t say “AGAIN”) of water (as a human being) and the Spirit (by believing in Christ)” Now, however true this may appear, and in fact, however true this actually is, I don’t personally believe that this is what Christ meant at the time. However, we should not ridicule those who do, if they are trying to understand what Our Lord’s words mean. We surely all believe that being born again is essential in order for us to see the kingdom of God, as Christ specifically tells us so.

It must be remembered the Baptism given by Saint John the Baptist signified repentance. When Christ was talking to Nicodemus (a man genuinely interested in what He had to teach, unlike the Pharisees who tried unsuccessfully to trip Christ up, and who, as Steveleeder says were full of their own righteousness) Jesus, knowing Nicodemus would know about John’s baptism, may have been referring to Baptism by water as meaning initial repentance of sin, before believing in Christ, and being born again of the Spirit.

Or, perhaps (as I believe) Christ was saying that when as adults we repent and ask Christ to forgive us our sins, we are forgiven and born again of the spirit, and when we are baptised, we are washed clean of all sins committed by us at that date, or as infants, we are born again of water, washed clean of original sin by the water of baptism, and born again by the spirit in later life, when, we consciously receive Christ as our Saviour and apply his redemptive death to our lives.

Whatever the case, there can be no doubt that we are saved by faith in Christ (and of course good works must follow, as St James tells us) as John Ch 3 v 63, Roman’s Ch 10 v 9, and many other verses make that clear. It is, in my submission, when we make the conscious decision to accept Christ as our Saviour, and by doing so apply the superabundant merits of His redemptive and salvific death on the cross to our own souls that we are born again or baptised, of the Spirit.

Baptism is a sacrament of the Church, the washing with water signifying inward repentance, rejuvenation, washing away of sin and is an outward confession and profession of Faith (“Romans 10 v 9) if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in thine heart that God has raised Him from the dead, thou SHALT be saved”) .

The word “sacrament” comes from early Roman times, and was the oath a soldier swore to his Emperor, and was a sign of his devotion and loyalty.

The sacrament of Baptism is an outward sign of an inward spiritual change. When an adult chooses to be baptised, his / her Baptism signifies that he / she has believed in Christ and so has applied Christ’s saving sacrifice to his / her own life and so have been born again by water and of the Spirit. Accordingly, at his / her baptism, while already forgiven his/her sins before, when they repented and asked for forgiveness, on the day of baptism, they are washed clean of sin committed up until that time
in a real way, by water and Spirit. If it is not possible to be baptised (this is unlikely) the Church allows for baptism by desire.

In the case of an infant being baptised, things may appear different, but in fact remain the same. Obviously no conscious decision is made by the baby to be born again in any way, and, as the child is not in a position to repent or commit or even be aware of sin, so the baptism is a profession of Faith by his / her parents and a promise to bring the child up in the faith, but also the water of baptism, by the power of the Spirit, washes away all sins to date, which will be only original sin, as no conscious sin has taken place, and at a future time, it is hoped that he will be born again of the Spirit, in the same way the adult was, by believing in Christ, and that they will both continue in the Faith, receive the sacraments, confess their sins and receive absolution.

However, in my submission, as seen in Scipture and from the teaching of the Church, if someone after baptism sins (as we all do) does not believe in Christ as his/her Saviour, does not seek forgiveness and turns his/her back on God, relying merely on their baptism many years before to save them, then they are wrong so to believe. We should be rather concerned about the sin we fall into during our lives after baptism, whether as an infant or otherwise, and having God forgive them, and living as we are told to do, by God and His Church.

God bless,

Jimmy Two Guns
 
Jimmy Two Guns,
Those were wonderful personable anwers! The sin of presumption, thinking or rationalizing that one can get away with anything since they were saved at baptism, is similar to practicing “faith” in church only. Faith is 24/7 and 365.25, all one’s life.
 
I have to agree with Jimmy Two Guns as well. I live by the principle that baptism is required for salvation, but does not guarantee it. The repenting and the continual recommitment are also essential.

I am LDS, and I was baptized at age 8. I have 3 kids of my own now, two of them 8 or older, and both of them have been baptized at age 8 as well. We have taught them from the time they were tiny that baptism is the gate by which we enter into the straight and narrow path, but we stay on that path by diligence and continual learning and repentance. Our youngest is looking forward to her opportunity to be baptized in a couple more years.

I have specifically taught my children the words of James concerning faith and salvation (see below), that salvation does not come simply by an expression of faith (as in the protestant notion of a prayer of acceptance for salvation), but by trusting the word of God enough to learn it, obey it (including the command to be baptized) and live it out the best we can day by day before and after baptism. I don’t recall who it was now, but someone earlier in this thread very clearly cited many passages from the NT that reiterate again and again the necessity for baptism. I whole heartedly concur.

James 2:14 - 24
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
…
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
…
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

In other words, because God commands baptism, our obedience to that command SHOWS our faith. Our daily struggle to repent likewise expresses our faith. And of course, we can and should express our faith in and through prayer as well.

However, as regards the necessity of baptism for infants, here is where I will have to part ways. We believe that the command does not apply to babies precisely because they are innocent and lack sufficient understanding of right and wrong to even need to or be able to truly repent until about age 8. (I have personally watched my two older children make a significant jump in their awareness and responsibility at about this age.) Before this time, we believe that the atonement of Christ freely saves little children, and that the responsibility to prepare them for baptism and a life of commitment to the gospel of Christ falls squarely on the parents.

I think of Christ’s very high opinion of little children, as opposed to his opinion of us sinful adults. We have to become like them to be accepted into God’s kingdom, but they are already acceptable in their innocence.

Matthew 18:2 - 4
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted [and I would include baptism here], and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:13 - 15
13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
15 And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.

In his command “forbid them not to come unto me”, I see a tacit reminder that we should not assume that little children are in any way unacceptable to God (i.e., “of such is the kingdom of heaven”), again suggesting that they likewise need no purification (i.e., repentance and baptism) to become acceptable.

This perspective is explicitly reiterated in the Book of Mormon, which we also accept as the word of God in addition to the Bible as part of our scriptural canon.

(Book of Mormon | Moroni 8:10 - 12)
10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children.
11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.
12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world…

I can appreciate the sense that many people have that infant baptism represents a covenant made by the parents to rear the child in the gospel, and/or that the baptism becomes effectual later in that individual’s life. However, I don’t see its Biblical basis. I see in every case that baptism is associated with belief/faith and repentance, both of which are impossible for an infant. Clarification on that point is welcome.

Incidentally, I don’t pose this as a challenge in any negative sense, but in a true spirit of wanting to know what others believe and why. I can appreciate that it is simply one of the teachings of the church or whatever the rationale. I don’t expect everyone to accept my convictions, only to appreciate that they are my convictions and I live my life by them. I would do the same for anyone else.
 
my bad on first catechism, i meant first communion.

so what i gather then from what you all believe of baptism: that it washes away one’s sins and as one stated either on this thread or another that once one is baptized that person becomes a child of God, before i continue, am i correct in my understanding of what catholicism teaches?
 
One must be born again, or he cannot enter this kingdom of God, this kingdom of heaven. Why must one be born anew? This statement is a play on the idea which was uppermost in Nicodemus’ mind. He and his countrymen were by their natural birth born into the kingdom of God–the Jewish kingdom–by virtue of their Jewish parentage. This doctrine Nicodemus understood thoroughly. In order to convey to his mind the truth regarding this new kingdom, Jesus spoke to him in terms with which he was familiar. He therefore said in substance: Nicodemus, your natural birth placed you in the kingdom of God as it has existed up until now; but, if you or anyone else enters this kingdom whose establishment both John and I have announced, you must have another birth. It is a second birth, a new one; it is from above. Nicodemus could not understand this language. He therefore asked a very natural question, “How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?” (John 3:4.) Jesus immediately replied that He was not talking of the physical birth but of a spiritual. Then He declared, “Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

What is meant by being born “of water and the Spirit” since, according to Jesus, one must have such a birth in order to enter into this kingdom which He and John were announcing? There are those who tell us that the water mentioned here is water baptism. Is this the correct interpretation of the term? If it is, no one can enter this kingdom unless he is baptized in water. Is that true? Look at John, chapter 4, and read the conversation which Jesus had with the woman at the well in Samaria. He offered to give her: “living water”–salvation–upon the condition that she would ask for it. She accepted this offer and asked for this living water that would become in her “a well of water springing up unto eternal life.”

10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.… 13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Every one that drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14 but whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up unto eternal life (John 4:10-14).

What did Jesus say when she asked for this living water? He did not require her to be baptized. If to be “born of water” in John 3:5 means water baptism, Jesus broke His rule when He granted salvation to the Samaritan woman apart from being baptized. Was He inconsistent? No one believes that He was. The expression, born of water, then, cannot refer to water baptism.

Since to be “born of water,” does not refer to water baptism, what is its significance? In John 7:37-39 we have this language:

37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, from within him shall flow rivers of living water. 39 But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believed on him were to receive: for the Spirit was not yet given; because Jesus was not yet glorified.

On this occasion Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit in terms of water. Such was the metaphorical meaning which He attached to it. Will this meaning fit into the context of John 3:5? Let us see. We have a right to substitute the meaning of a word in any given passage. If it fits perfectly, we know that we are correct in the interpretation. The passage would then read, “Except one be born of the Spirit and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” This translation does not make sense. Something is wrong. What is it? Let us now look at the meaning of the word translated and. This word primarily means and. It also means, even, also, too, as defined in Thayer’s Greek Lexicon. We must select that meaning of any word which accords with the facts of a given context. Since Jesus used water, as we have just seen, with a symbolic meaning signifying the spirit, and since the conjunction also means even, let us now translate our passage using these words: “Except one be born of water, even the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” This makes good common sense and is in accordance with the use to which Jesus put the word, water, when He used it in a meaning other than literal. Since the facts indicate that He was not using the word literally, then He was using it symbolically. Everything therefore fits perfectly.

The proper translation of this sentence is that one must “be born of water, even the Spirit.” This interpretation is confirmed by the next statement, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” (John 3:6). Nicodemus derived his fleshly nature from his fleshly parents. He must have a spiritual nature in order to enter this kingdom of God about which he was inquiring. Jesus in substance said, You must be born of the water, even the Spirit, for you can get your spiritual nature only from the Spirit of God. In the light of all the facts, we see that Jesus emphatically declared that one can never enter this kingdom–the spiritual kingdom of God as it is today, the church of Jesus Christ–except he have a spiritual or a new birth.
 
The thief on the cross didn’t need baptism because baptism wasn’t necessary THEN. Christ had not died, and the covenant had not been sealed with His blood. John’s baptism wasn’t for salvation, but was a preparation for the real baptism, which IS required for salvation.

Baptism is really only necessary for salvation if the Gospel has been proclaimed to you. The Gospel was not complete yet. Not until Christ died.

What about all the Jews before Christ had come and died? They were not baptized. So how did they get to heaven? It was because they were made to know the promise of God, that a savior would come and ransom them to Himself by his blood.

The verse says “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” Today. Meaning, before Christ was risen from the dead. Christ had not risen, so the covenant was not complete. The thief on the cross went to Paradise, not necessarily Heaven. Jesus didn’t go to heaven until AFTER he had risen, three days later.

Is it also possible that Jesus actually said “Amen,** I say to you today**, you will be with me in Paradise.”?
Your last sentence put’s in a nutshell. Christ forgave him in person on the spot. No need for baptism for the thief on the cross.
 
Your last sentence put’s in a nutshell. Christ forgave him in person on the spot. No need for baptism for the thief on the cross.
** A.** In God all things are possible. Many things could have happened to the Good Thief in the presence of the Crucified Christ. Was he baptized there and there? The Scriptures tell us that “he exhibited great faith.” Perhaps Christ baptized him in view of his faith. Perhaps this faith, coupled with the powers coming from the wounds of Christ supplanted baptism. There is an intresting thought in volume VIII (1) of John Paul II’s Insegnamenti, which I happened to come upon this morning: “Boys and girls who will receive Baptism today are a living testimony to the cleansing action of the Holy Spirit. They will be visited by a ray of Grace which, coming from the wounds of the Crucified Savior, will spread benignly thoughout the desert, irrigating it, healing wounds and miseries, washing man’s sins” (Homily for the Baptism Feast of Jesus, 13 January, 1985). May be this was what happened to the Good Thief in the presence of Christ’s open wounds! I find John Paul II’s definition of Baptism quite interesting. But the great faith was certainly most instrumental in whatever happened to that Thief.
 
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