Question for Protestants: How do you interpret John 3: 4-5?

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As Catholics, are we really trying to state that despite believing in Christ, and having him forgive our sins, and applying hisd salvific deat on the cross to our lives, that UNLESS we are actually physically baptised with water ( and, as Catholics, that need not be done only by a priest) we are not born again!

As far as Christ telling the thief on the Cross, tohay thou shalt be withme in paradise, and trying to draw a distinction between Paradise and Heaven, because this thief had not been baptised, or because Christ had not yet died and risen, is an nonsense.

Christ, himself in agony, was so obviously telling this penitent thief that by his belief in him, he was saved. How dare you try and to invent some other meaning for our suffering Saviour’s words to a repentant sinner, just to attempt to prove that baptism by water is essential. The thief wasn’t baptised, so according to your argument he wasn’t born again, so why would he be going to paradise with JESUS?

Get a grip! It’s Catholics like you who give others bullets to fire at us.

God bless,

Jimmy Two Guns
 
Your last sentence put’s in a nutshell. Christ forgave him in person on the spot. No need for baptism for the thief on the cross.
could have said it better myself belinda, ‘ON THE SPOT’. He forgave me on the spot, what about the rest of you all.
 
As Catholics, are we really trying to state that despite believing in Christ,asking him to forgive our sins, inviting him into our lives and so applying his salvific death on the cross to ourselves, that UNLESS we are actually physically baptised with water we are not born again!?

As far as Christ telling the thief on the Cross, “today thou shalt be with me in paradise” to try to draw a distinction between “Paradise” and “Heaven”, because this thief had not been baptised (not that he had the chance) and because Christ had not yet died and risen, is a nonsense. Do you dare deny the Saviour’s words, given on the Holy Cross?!

Christ, himself in agony, was so obviously telling this penitent thief the good news of the Gospel, namely because of his belief in Jesus, as the son of God, dying on the cross, he was saved. If the thief wasn’t baptised, according to your argument he wasn’t born again, so he couldn’t possibly see the Kingdom of God (as Christ Himself states that you must be born again to enter) yet He tells the thief that today, that thief will be with Him, Jesus, his Saviour, in Paradise. If he wasn’t born again, why is he promised by the Son of God that he is going to Paradise with HIM?

According to your argument (if it can be awarded the title of that) despite this thief’s penitence and belief in Christ, and his request to Christ to remember him “when He comes into His Kingdom” (where you can’t go without being born again) doubltless his conscience being pricked by the Holy Spirit, according to your argument, despite his actions and beliefs being in stark conttrast to the attitude of the other thief who mocks Christ, yet, because he wasn’t baptised he is left in the same spiritual state.

How dare you try to invent some ridiculously tenuous meaning for our suffering Saviour’s words to a repentant sinner, merely to support the view that baptism by water is essential. Are you saying despite a person’s clear genuine belief in Christ, they are going to Hell?!! The thief’s words are a profession of faith and also indicate a belief in Christ entering into His Kingdom after His death, and so show his belief in Christ’s resurrection, and ongoing life. Christ’s words to the thief are an assurance to him of his salvation, as He, there and then gave his life for that thief, for you, for me and the sins of the world.

Get a grip! It’s Catholics like you who provide bullets for protestants to fire at us because frankly you don’t understand what the Church teaches. Baptism is a sacrament, and an important one, but if it were essential to salvation, the Church would not aboslve the doctrines of baptism by Desire or Blood.

God bless,

Jimmy Two Guns
 
What did Jesus say when she asked for this living water? He did not require her to be baptized. If to be “born of water” in John 3:5 means water baptism, Jesus broke His rule when He granted salvation to the Samaritan woman apart from being baptized. Was He inconsistent? No one believes that He was. The expression, born of water, then, cannot refer to water baptism.
I think it is correct to associate the symbol of water with the spirit, but I don’t see that it means that “spirit” can replace “water” across the board, or on the other hand that “water” should always imply baptism either. The view that baptism is apparently optional from the context of John 3 ignores the various places where it is just as apparent that the apostles were commanded to baptize everyone they could, and that they consistently did so as part of the conversion and new life of every disciple.

A particularly clear example is when Philip went on his mission to Samaria, and immediately began to baptize hundreds of people. But this was quite clearly not the same as being born of the spirit because it specifically states that they had not yet received the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:12 - 17
12 But when they [the Samaritans] believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
…
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

If we correlate this passage with John 3:4-5, we could just as well say that we see the fulfillment of the two parts Jesus spoke of, namely being born of water (water baptism) and spirit (receiving the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands).

I can imagine someone saying that the prayer of the apostles was ultimately what brought the spirit fully to the people and therefore the baptism was less important in the end. However, it is clear from the rest of the NT that the apostles did in fact regularly baptize all new converts.

On the other hand it should be admitted that the water itself is in a real sense impotent in and of itself. It is a symbol and baptism is in itself a symbolic act that makes reference to the atonement of Christ. But does that justify revoking the commandment to be baptized or that we should baptize converts? Just as circumcision or animal sacrifice were in their own right impotent acts or dead laws in themselves, it was obedience to the command that was counted as righteousness to Abraham.

James 2:20 - 23
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

So also we can recognize both the inherent deadness of baptism in its own right as a dowsing with water, while recognizing the potency of the command and thereby the power it invokes by compliance out of faith. I do not literally believe that my own baptism had any supernatural effect in its own right, but I do believe that by choosing to receive that ordinance (or sacrament), I was able both to enact and invoke symbolically the atonement of Christ for myself personally, and to show my faith and obedience by performing that rite out of recognition of God’s right and sovereignty to make such a command.

I can only speak for myself, but I feel drawn to follow the example of Christ himself and the actions of his apostles. Christ was baptized “to fulfill all righteousness” (Matt. 3:15), and the apostles consistently baptized all they taught who believed. Why should I not do the same?

Christ himself also speaks of those who did or did not submit themselves to baptism by John the Baptist. The language of Luke 7:30 is sobering.

Luke 7:28 - 30
28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30 But the Pharisees and lawyers **rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
**

I would not dare deny the importance or essential nature of baptism in light of such statements. By the same token, I would invite everyone who reads this to take the matter to God on their knees, meditating on these and other statements from the Bible. It is clear that we can argue about the grammar and the semantics of any statement, but at a certain point it must be God’s spirit that confirms to us his will, not the Greek language, not tradition, not any mortal.

I can, however, attest to the overwhelming outpouring of the spirit at the baptism of my two oldest children, when they were each 8 years old, and the sense of rightness and holiness I felt as I participated in baptizing them myself and in laying my hands on them to confer on them the gift and promise of the Holy Spirit as their guide throughout their lives if they are responsive to it. They know that was a sacred moment, and I am always grateful that I made the same choice when I was young. What greater witness can we have than the outpouring of the spirit such as these?
 
o.k, now with that said i will strictly point out what God says in His Word about the born again.

first to be born again one has to die not a physical death but a spiritual death:

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus told his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

by nature we are selfish people always with the mentality of ‘me’ so to follow Jesus one must deny themselves, putting oneself last. also, we are take our cross and follow Him, in that day what did the cross mean to the people He was speaking to: if He were speaking to us today maybe He would say, take up the electric chair or the needle (lethal injection). so today when we think of the chair or needle death is the picture we get cause that is what the criminals on death roll get.

so by believing the Gospel of Jesus; death and resurrection, we repent of our sins cause it because of our sins He went on the Cross to begin with.

the answers my friend are in the Bible we just have to search again how does one be born again?

let’s go back to the beginning of John’s Gospel:

John 1:12-13

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

what happens when one receives him and believed in his name? He gave the right to become children of God. so who gives us this right? well who is He? Jesus.

then it goes on to say that they were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD! baptism of water would be in using this context would be the will of the flesh and man.

let’s stick with John seeing that he is the one who talks of this subject more than others and he walked with our Lord and Savior.

in John’s first letter he tells how we know that we are of God:

1 John 1:2
the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life,

2:23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.

bare with me it’s getting good

3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death.

3:23-24 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.

5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

5:4-5 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world— our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

man all you ready for this cause if you don’t know this it’s gonna blow your mind in which this topic of being born again comes to us, brace yourselves!

5:6-8 This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.

now the assurance that we have:
5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

now i know what the catholic church teaches about baptism but the question that i have is how i myself as an infant without knowledge was born again through baptism when i never heard the gospel?

my friends read the whole 1st letter of John it is tells how we know for sure that we are in the Faith. i could of posted more on here but the points of reference were of more important. read it all in context to get a better understanding compare the Word only with the Word.

God bless you
 
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