Question For Protestants (if any are here)

[AugustTherese]

Then you have your answer. Why are you asking me?

My questions aren’t for me, they’re for you. I ask you rhetorical questions to provoke a stirring in your heart/mind. However, you have the free will to decide what you will choose to believe.

It simply baffles me that people who know the ‘real’ Martin Luther will tirelessly defend his actions and works when those actions and works are objectively what they are. Funny how I had to find out about his actions and works autonomously; you’d think just one soul in the Lutheran communities might have mentioned something - I mean, why not, right? He really didn’t remove books of Scripture, no…he merely had an ‘opinion’. He really did not say all those lewd and vile sentiments, you have to read it in ‘context’. He had to add the word ‘alone’ in Rom. 3:28 because only the German calls for it. Yet, no one person mentioned any of this in my 25 years as a Confessional Lutheran. Please! It saddens my heart that people spend so much time and effort defending someone else’s errors, especially when those errors are objectively obvious. But, you are free to believe and defend whichever you choose.

 

[MichaelP3]

I’ve been meaning to ask? Which council/synod/decree/whatever do you consider the authoritative "thing " that made all these books canonical or even “reiterated” them to be aa such?

 

[AugustTherese]

I’ve been meaning to ask? Which council/synod/decree/whatever do you consider the authoritative "thing " that made all these books canonical or even “reiterated” them to be aa such?

Nicea II: Canon 16 (787) - Sirach 1:25 (scripture)
Constantinople IV: Canon 10 (869) - Sirach 11:7 (scripture)
Lateran IV: Section 70 (1215) - Sirach 2:12, 3:28** (it is written)
Vienne: Section 14 (1311) - Sirach 24:17
Section 24 (1311) - Wisdom 5:6**
Section 38 (1312) - Sirach 24:31, 1:5; Susannah/Daniel 13:42**
Basle/Florence: Session 21(1435) - Sirach 18:23 (scripture)
Session 3 (1438) - Wisdom 10:20 (it is written)
Session 6 (1439) - Tobit 12:20**
Session 7 (1439) - Susannah/Daniel 13:9
Session 9 (1440) - Wisdom 5:21**

 

[MichaelP3]

That was really quick. Honestly I thought you “blocked” me.

But I am not really sure what that post is saying?

 

[AugustTherese]

That was really quick. Honestly I thought you “blocked” me.

But I am not really sure what that post is saying?

Those are Ecumenical Councils with their dates and the Deuterocanonical books they quote from.

 

[MichaelP3]

Thanks for that.

But you gave me many answers there, in a sense of not being one answer…

So all those councils… okay. Does this mean the canon was still being developed or was it a "thing " according to the Catholic Church already? If so, why?

 

[JonNC]

My questions aren’t for me, they’re for you. I ask you rhetorical questions to provoke a stirring in your heart/mind. However, you have the free will to decide what you will choose to believe.

For that to have an impact, there must be an element of historical accuracy. I don’t see that in you rhetoric

It simply baffles me that people who know the ‘real’ Martin Luther will tirelessly defend his actions and works when those actions and works are objectively what they are.

Again, I’m not defending his opinion. I don’t share it. I defend his Catholic liberty to have it. I defend it against a double standard.

He had to add the word ‘alone’ in Rom. 3:28 because only the German calls for it. Yet, no one person mentioned any of this in my 25 years as a Confessional Lutheran.

Blame poor catechesis, but again, if you are English speaking, “alone” isn’t there, but the meaning is clear.

26Through the forbearance of God, for the shewing of his justice in this time; that he himself may be just, and the justifier of him, who is of the faith of Jesus Christ.

27Where is then thy boasting? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law. 29Is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also. 30For it is one God, that justifieth circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31Do we, then, destroy the law through faith? God forbid: but we establish the law.

Amen

 

[AugustTherese]

Thanks for that.

But you gave me many answers there, in a sense of not being one answer…

So all those councils… okay. Does this mean the canon was still being developed or was it a "thing " according to the Catholic Church already? If so, why?

“But in the Synod of Hippo (393) the great Doctor’s view prevailed, and the correct Canon was adopted”

Canon of the Holy Scriptures | Catholic Answers Encyclopedia

 

[AugustTherese]

For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law.

“You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” James 2:24

Did you notice Saint Paul wrote ‘works of the law’ while Saint James simply wrote ‘works’? Could it be that Saint Paul was refering to works of the Mosaic Law, i.e. work of circumcision? Hence:

For it is one God, that justifieth circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

In all of my years on the Earth, I have never, ever seen a Protestant independently quote James 2:24, give a sermon on it, and/or mention it. They starkly avoid it at all costs until a Catholic quotes it; then you get about as many different interpretations as there are Protestant denominations that twist and distort the clear words of James 2:24.

 

[JonNC]

In all of my years on the Earth, I have never, ever seen a Protestant independently quote James 2:24, give a sermon on it, and/or mention it. They starkly avoid it at all costs until a Catholic quotes it; then you get about as many different interpretations as there are Protestant denominations that twist and distort the clear words of James 2:24.

Really? I do it all the time here. Luther preached sermons on it. Remember, he praised it.
Luther said James wasn’t up to the task of teaching the law. I disagree. I think he does a great job of teaching the regenerate the necessity of good works.
I think we can get a solid understanding of James by looking at Galatians.

 

[SeasideChef]

I go to Catholic church, I love the Mass and everything about the church except for some of the outdated rules and rigid attitude of some clergy and parishioners. I suppose I am a Protestant at heart who loves Catholic church too much to leave it.

 

[JonNC]

I go to Catholic church, I love the Mass and everything about the church except for some of the outdated rules and rigid attitude of some clergy and parishioners. I suppose I am a Protestant at heart who loves Catholic church too much to leave it.

If you love the Catholic Mass, no reason to leave.

 

[SeasideChef]

I won’t leave the church, I’m stuck with it. I know it’s the only church I would ever go to. But I really consider myself more spiritual rather than overly religuous.

 

[steido01]

Blame poor catechesis, but again, if you are English speaking, “alone” isn’t there, but the meaning is clear.

I’ve tried explaining this to the poster. He’s convinced that all Lutherans are either fools or liars.

Not even Pope Benedict XVI, a native German speaker, is apparently convincing enough.

 

[steido01]

In all of my years on the Earth, I have never, ever seen a Protestant independently quote James 2:24, give a sermon on it, and/or mention it.

You may, as you claim, have attended a Lutheran church, but I’m not sure you ever heard a Lutheran sermon. The exhortation to good works is an integral part of the truly Lutheran sermon. It’s part of what Lutherans identify as the “Third Use” of the Law, and clearly tied to Sanctification.

The more you share about your experience, the more clear it is that you were not well catechized.

 

[guanophore]

My mother is actually very against Catholicism. She says it’s wrong to pray to anyone other than God and therefore it is wrong to pray to Mary. I don’t even know if she has an opinion about the saints due to a lack of knowledge, but I’m sure even if she did have that knowledge, her answer would be it’s wrong.

How could asking the prayer of one who has gone on before us in faith be wrong? As a Methodist, she likely often asked the prayers of others, and may even have had much respect for certain persons:

James 5:16 “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.”

The more I read on Catholicism, the more inclined I am to want to convert. I have decided to attend Mass for the first time, but am very nervous. I will more than likely attend alone

It is incumbent upon a person to follow how they are led. If this is how God is calling you, then everything will fall into place.

 

[MichelleP12]

Hi Jill, I was raised a Baptist. In our first town, my family attended the Second Baptist church. That means there obviously was a First one. Then we moved. We tried the Second Baptist in that town but the preacher was too emotional (on his knees, weeping and all in his sermon). So we found a “third” Baptist church–which had broken away from that Second one. There truly is no unity in Protestantism. It all began as a “spin-off” from the true Church. Once I got into the history of things, and in the Bible (whether it’s the complete Catholic or the pared-down Protestant ones) just reading to whom Jesus is talking is very important. He intended to found and did found only one Church and did so on Peter. And also, Jesus gave His Church the Holy Spirit to keep His Church protected in the Truth. This guarantee is not with any other church, so that is why they can’t agree and keep fracturing. In the commercial real estate office I used to work at, one broker handled sales of funeral homes. He told me that those were usually purchased by someone starting his or her own church. Sad!

A hard issue for me, though after all these years has been Mary. Not asking for her prayers. That is easy. But her being our Mother too?

I kept praying on it. Asking Her help, His help. Then one day I was reading Revelation. Specifically chapter 12. Basically it’s about Our Lady. Verse 17 basically says that those who follow the commandments are Her seed. (The KJV actually uses the word seed). Inn other words, she is our Mother.

 

[JonNC]

”Being just simply means being with Christ and in Christ. And this suffices. Further observances are no longer necessary. For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).” -Pope Benedict

Amen.

 

[AugustTherese]

The exhortation to good works is an integral part of the truly Lutheran sermon

Of course it is, but not in terms of justification.

It’s part of what Lutherans identify as the “Third Use” of the Law, and clearly tied to Sanctification.

And only tied to sanctification, and not justification.

The more you share about your experience, the more clear it is that you were not well catechized.

You keep reiterating this and it’s a total cop-out to seemingly somehow rectify the false doctrine of sola fide and the vile, lewd works of Martin Luther. So, every Lutheran pastor and teacher dodged having to ‘catechize’ me on how Lutherans can profess sola fide when James 2 refutes it? Every Luther pastor and teacher neglected to inform me that Luther added the word ‘alone’ to Romans 3:28? Every Lutheran pastor and teacher forgot to tell me that Luther took inspired books of the Bible, along with portions of Daniel and Esther, and put them into a non-inspired appendix? Every Luther pastor and teacher omitted the vile, lewd, and utterly coarse works of his associated with the Devil, flatulence, feces, prostitution etc. all referring to the Pope and the Catholic Church? Yes, I was not ‘catechized’ on any of that! I had to autonomously discover all of this on my own! And, when I presented all of this, and still present it to you and others, I get the same non-answers that those Lutheran pastors gave me before I reverted to the Church Christ founded.

So, catechize me, @steido01. Tell me how a Christian can only be justified by faith alone in light of James 2:24. Please, I implore you. Here is your big chance to catechize a ‘fallen’ Lutheran and to bring me back to the Lutheran ‘church’.

 

[AugustTherese]

For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love

“If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.”

Luther’s phrase: faith alone is false, because it IS opposed to faith in charity, hence the referenced canon. Hence, why he got excommunicated. Hence, the Council of Trent.