Question For Protestants (if any are here)

[JonNC]

So, you think Benedict disagrees with Trent? I don’t.
All faith alone teaches about works is what scripture says. Justified by grace alone through faith in Christ alone, we act through love to do the good works He has prepared for us to do.
Do you disagree?

It also recognizes that our ability to do those good works is because of grace, and not of our own ability.
Do you disagree ?

And failure to do those good works is a rejection of grace. Repeated, unrepented sin causes a loss of saving faith.
Do you disagree?

If we recognize that our good works are actually His good works in us, then we can see how His Spirit is guiding our sanctification.
Do you disagree?

 

[AugustTherese]

All faith alone teaches about works is what scripture says. Justified by grace alone through faith in Christ along, we act through love to do the good works He has prepared for us to do

And, yet, I’m being told that I was poorly catechized as a Lutheran.
Faith alone, as defined by Luther and promulgated by Confessional Lutherans, is the idea that we are justified by faith alone, meaning that in no way, shape, or form are we justified by our works in cooperating with grace. Further, in terms of justification, Christ’s righteousness is solely imputed to us declaring us just in the sight of God, and any ‘cooperation’ of grace empowering us to preform good works is solely for our sanctification, not our justification. Paraphrasing Ephesians 2:8-10 is not what sola fide professes.

It also recognizes that our ability to do those good works is because of grace, and not of our own ability.

Do you disagree ?

If we recognize that our good works are actually His good works in us, then we can see how His Spirit is guiding our sanctification.

Do you disagree?

“If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit an increase of grace, eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase of glory, let him be anathema.”

And failure to do those good works is a rejection of grace. Repeated, unrepented sin causes a loss of saving faith.

Do you disagree?

I agree with that, yes.

 

[JonNC]

And only tied to sanctification, and not justification

Why do you think Lutherans uncouple sanctification and justification? Luther himself said, ** There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.” **

 

[JonNC]

If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit an increase of grace, eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase of glory, let him be anathema.

How does someone merit that which is a gift?

 

[guanophore]

I am here

Welcome Brian! A crisis of faith can sometimes bear good fruit!

 

[guanophore]

And it doesn’t matter what his translation has. He removed 7 books and parts of two others from the Holy Bible. If he hadn’t, there wouldn’t be a Protestant Bible.

Let’s avoid accusing Protestants of things for which they are not responsible. The books were removed by Publishers who were trying to save money.

 

[lilypadrees]

Not accusing Protestants of anything. I’m putting the blame where it it belongs. On Martin Luther. Research it. You’ll see.

 

[guanophore]

Not accusing Protestants of anything. I’m putting the blame where it it belongs. On Martin Luther. Research it. You’ll see.

And how is “putting blame” different than accusing?

Asserting that Luther took books out of the Bible when he did not is not helpful to resolving the divisions that exist.

Luther did do plenty of things for which he can certainly be found historically involved. Frankly I find some of his other writings far more concerning than his treatment of the Deuterocanonical books. If you wish to take issue with his attitude, then you have to take issue with St. Jerome, who had the same opinion.

I have not found that “blame” really solves anything.

 

[Vonsalza]

Thanks for that.

But you gave me many answers there, in a sense of not being one answer…

So all those councils… okay. Does this mean the canon was still being developed or was it a "thing " according to the Catholic Church already? If so, why?

The canonicity of the antilegomena was under debate even within Catholicism until Florence in the 15th century which essentially ended the debates under pain of anathematization. And I think the first council to put them forth was Hippo near the end of the 4th?

So 1000-1100 years or so?

Of course, when the religion is approached from a perspective that presumes “Christ gave us the Church, which happened to produce the Bible” instead of “Christ gave us the Bible, from which we draw the Church”, this makes decent sense.

 

[lilypadrees]

It’s historical fact that Martin Luther removed 7 books and parts of two others. Therefore, it isn’t an accusation.

As I said, do the research. You’ll be shocked at the things you discover.

 

[Vonsalza]

It’s historical fact that Martin Luther removed 7 books and parts of two others. Therefore, it isn’t an accusation.

As I said, do the research. You’ll be shocked at the things you discover.

I’ll bet you one American dollar that @guanophore already has some experience and familiarity with the topic.

 

[lilypadrees]

lilypadrees:

It’s historical fact that Martin Luther removed 7 books and parts of two others. Therefore, it isn’t an accusation.

As I said, do the research. You’ll be shocked at the things you discover.

I’ll bet you one American dollar that @guanophore already has some experience and familiarity with the topic.

Sorry, but I don’t bet.

 

[AugustTherese]

Why do you think Lutherans uncouple sanctification and justification?

Well, I presume most ‘Lutherans’ do not have a firm grasp on the order of good works and how they play into both our justification and sanctification.

 

[AugustTherese]

How does someone merit that which is a gift?

Are you referring to “merit an increase of grace”?

 

[AugustTherese]

Asserting that Luther took books out of the Bible when he did not is not helpful to resolving the divisions that exist

But, he did! Also, that is merely stating a fact. Please, I kindly recommend you research this.

 

[SnowRose]

My Bible has the regular texts, and the Apocrypha texts are included in a separate heading, after the OT, before the NT. I’m Lutheran and I’ve read them. It was part of the confirmation/cathechism studies.

 

[JonNC]

It’s historical fact that Martin Luther removed 7 books and parts of two others. Therefore, it isn’t an accusation.

So, you are ceding authority to Luther to remove books from scripture?
I’m not. Even the Lutheran confessions don’t do that.
But the historical fact is that Luthers translation has 74 books in it. Not 66. Not 73. 74 books.
If you have evidence that his translation did not have 74 books, please share.
It was 1534 when his first full translation was published, long after his excommunication. He had no obligation to the Catholic hierarchy to include them, but he did. He and his “Sanhedrin “ translated all of them. He included all of them.
It is historically and factually inaccurate to state he removed them.

 

[AugustTherese]

But the historical fact is that Luthers translation has 74 books in it. Not 66. Not 73. 74 books.

And which of those 74 books were included in the canon of inspired books? Also, what did he do with portions of Daniel and Esther? You seem to conveniently omit that crucial aspect.

 

[JonNC]

Well, I presume most ‘Lutherans’ do not have a firm grasp on the order of good works and how they play into both our justification and sanctification.

I would surmise Catholics are no better.

 

[AugustTherese]

I would surmise Catholics are no better

And, thanks be to God we have a Magisterium with authority straight from Christ Himself in that we do not have to rely on individual opinion.