Question for Protestants:Sword of Simeon

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From Ignatius Catholic Study Bible:
(Luke 2:35) An advance glimpse of Calvary, when the rejection of Jesus by sinners will bear heavily on his Mother. Attached to her vocation is a grim expectation of maternal suffering (see CCC 618).

CCC 618 The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the “one mediator between God and men”.452 But because in his incarnate divine person he has in some way united himself to every man, “the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery” is offered to all men.453 He calls his disciples to “take up [their] cross and follow [him]”,454 for "Christ also suffered for [us], leaving [us] an example so that [we] should follow in his steps."455 In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries.456 This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering.457
 
Here’s the comment from the NAB…

11 [35] (And you yourself a sword will pierce): Mary herself will not be untouched by the various reactions to the role of Jesus (34). Her blessedness as mother of the Lord will be challenged by her son who describes true blessedness as “hearing the word of God and observing it” (Luke 11:27-28 and Luke 8:20-21).

This doesn’t seem to be referring to the passion, but almost an assult on Mary’s ego. This interpretation gives me pause as Mary being full of grace would not be impacted by the sin of pride. Maybe I"m reading this incorrectly. Comments?
 
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Elzee:
To which Catholics would say - “Amen”!
If what you say is true then this would not be a thread
 
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SolaChristo:
If what you say is true then this would not be a thread
What do you mean?
For Catholics Jesus is our salvation.

CCC 169 Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: "We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation."55 Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.

CCC 620 Our salvation flows from God’s initiative of love for us, because “he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins” (I Jn 4:10). “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself” (2 Cor 5:19).

CCC 621 Jesus freely offered himself for our salvation. Beforehand, during the Last Supper, he both symbolized this offering and made it really present: “This is my body which is given for you” (Lk 22:19).

CCC 622 The redemption won by Christ consists in this, that he came “to give his life as a ransom for many” (Mt 20:28), that is, he “loved [his own] to the end” (Jn 13:1), so that they might be “ransomed from the futile ways inherited from [their] fathers” (I Pt 1:18).

CCC 623 By his loving obedience to the Father, “unto death, even death on a cross” (Phil 2:8), Jesus fulfills the atoning mission (cf. Is 53:10) of the suffering Servant, who will “make many righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities” (Is 53:11; cf. Rom 5:19).
 
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SolaChristo:
If what you say is true then this would not be a thread
This is a typical Protestant misdirection. The thread concerns a prophecy regarding Mary, what it means, and where it might possibly be found being fulfilled in scripture. Since most Protestants either hate Mary, or at least try to diminish her presence and/or role in scripture, SolaChristo throws out the following blindside…

“He was bruised for our transgressions, He was wounded for our inequities, the chastisement needfull for us to obtain peace and well being was laid upon Him, by His stripes we are healed and made whole. Praise God!!! Thank You Jesus. It is your sufferings and death that has saved us. For it is by You and You alone that we are saved.”

True enough. However, this has nothing to do with the thread. Let me put it to you this way…

To the best of my knowledge, according to Protestants, Mary was “highly favored” by God to bear Jesus. She does so, she becomes a fine model for a faithful Christian woman… and that is all!

If this is indeed the case, then why would Simeon, AFTER the birth of Jesus, (AFTER Mary has fulfilled her “favored” duty) prophesy about her? Why would she have any future prophetic role if her singular role of bearing Christ was behind her? Consider, also, the nature of the prophecy. HER soul is pierced by a sword, and the effect is upon the hearts of MANY.

Her portion of the prophecy affects the thoughts of the hearts of many, immediately after Simeon proclaims that the affect of the child’s life will cause the rise and fall of many. Both Jesus and Mary have a profound impact on MANY.

This is why I have asked the Protestants what they believe the prophecy means. If Mary’s importance ended when she gave birth to the Lord, why would there be a future prophecy given in scripture concerning her and what does it mean and/or when in the scriptures was it fulfilled?

So far, all I have received was a shallow explanation of how the suffering of Christ caused her grief, which as I stated earlier could be said of any mother whose child is tortured and crucified -followed by an interpretation that reveals a corrupting of the gospel of Luke. (From which I assume is a Protestant bible.)

Can anyone offer anything more substantial?

Thal59
 
Thal59 said:
>>>I don’t think that this is a question of corrupted bibles. The bible translations that put the reference to Mary in the middle, do so parenthetically. I depend on the RSV-CE translation which has the statement in the middle. I think this is a “better” translation, but I don’t think the others are “corrupt.” It is important to note that translations can be legitimately rendered with slightly different wording. If the wording clearly changes the meaning of the original languages then we have a problem.<<<

Pax, we DO have a problem. One CANNOT take the second clause of Luke 2:35 and attach it to verse 34 without corrupting the original script.

I am stunned that nobody seems to give a damn about such textual corruptions!!! Especially the Protestants who are practically betting their salvation on scipture alone! (Sola Scriptura.) If I were a sola scripturist, I wouldn’t tolerate any “screwing” with sentence structures or words; I would want the absolute best translation humanly possible.

Let me give you another example. The sign of Jonah:

“Just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights, so too will the son of man be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.”

This is as it appears in the Catholic D-R, Byzantine, and Latin Vulgate. Note the order… Jonah, whale, 3 days - Son of man, earth, 3 days.

In other words, the sentence is structured this way… Person, place, time. However, in the KJ and its variants the passage reads…

“Just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so too will the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”

Person, time, place. This may seem to some to be an accpetable variation, however, I had a long and difficult battle with a non-denominational friend of mine over this passage. Because he has always read the timeframe after the person in question, to him the sign of Jonah was the three days and nights which caused him to argue that Jesus could not have died on a Friday and then resurrect on Sunday morning because it was NOT 3 full days and 3 full nights. I asked him what he thought the sign of Jonah was and he said “The three days and three nights!”

But keep the sentence in its proper order, and one realizes that the sign of Jonah is clearly the resurrection, not the timeframe.
Mary’s role, in this sense, is part of the prophecy, but the prophecy is not, strictly speaking, a Marian prophecy.<<
When Simeon says to Mary… “Thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.” This part of the prophecy is indeed a Marian prophecy. The clause “…that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed…” is the very purpose/result of this “piercing.” Take this away, and the prophecy cannot be determined with any certitude. So far, as you can see, no one can agree as to what the prophecy means.

DANIEL MARSH… From which bible did you quote Luke 2:34-35 from?

Thal59

Im not sure you can get to where you want by going where you are going.
Different languages have differing grammatical rules.
I would go to my interlinnear bible (at home) Im now at work. But the word structure of the original language would be for that language and not for english. You talk about corrupt translations, however when the translators translate from the original text their theological bias will always come into play depending how they apply the rules of interpretation. This is a polemic that only those conversant in Hebrew and or Aramaic (depending on the text could fully examine).
 
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StCsDavid:
Here’s the comment from the NAB…

11 [35] (And you yourself a sword will pierce): Mary herself will not be untouched by the various reactions to the role of Jesus (34). Her blessedness as mother of the Lord will be challenged by her son who describes true blessedness as “hearing the word of God and observing it” (Luke 11:27-28 and Luke 8:20-21).

This doesn’t seem to be referring to the passion, but almost an assult on Mary’s ego. This interpretation gives me pause as Mary being full of grace would not be impacted by the sin of pride. Maybe I"m reading this incorrectly. Comments?
This comment from the NAB makes no sense at all. To say she will not be untouched by various reactions to the role of Jesus is ridiculous as it can also be said that the lives of all of the apostles were similarly “not untouched.” Also, I hope what you have in parenthesis is not actually from that bible.

“…you yourself a sword shall pierce?” This is highly inferior to “your soul.” How can a bible reduce something as profound as one’s soul to merely one’s person?

My bible was printed in 1950. Am I seeing, over the last 56 years, a corruption of both Catholic and Protestant bibles? Are both Catholics and Protestants taking liberties with the original text to reflect interpretation? The scripture should remain as pure as possible. The footnotes should explain interpretation.

If we change words and sentence structures to reflect our personal interpretations, then scriptures can no longer be considered the word of God - rather, it becomes the opinions of men. Does anybody care?

Thal59
 
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Thal59:
This is a typical Protestant misdirection. The thread concerns a prophecy regarding Mary, what it means, and where it might possibly be found being fulfilled in scripture. Since most Protestants either hate Mary, or at least try to diminish her presence and/or role in scripture, SolaChristo throws out the following blindside…

“He was bruised for our transgressions, He was wounded for our inequities, the chastisement needfull for us to obtain peace and well being was laid upon Him, by His stripes we are healed and made whole. Praise God!!! Thank You Jesus. It is your sufferings and death that has saved us. For it is by You and You alone that we are saved.”

True enough. However, this has nothing to do with the thread. Let me put it to you this way…

To the best of my knowledge, according to Protestants, Mary was “highly favored” by God to bear Jesus. She does so, she becomes a fine model for a faithful Christian woman… and that is all!

If this is indeed the case, then why would Simeon, AFTER the birth of Jesus, (AFTER Mary has fulfilled her “favored” duty) prophesy about her? Why would she have any future prophetic role if her singular role of bearing Christ was behind her? Consider, also, the nature of the prophecy. HER soul is pierced by a sword, and the effect is upon the hearts of MANY.

Her portion of the prophecy affects the thoughts of the hearts of many, immediately after Simeon proclaims that the affect of the child’s life will cause the rise and fall of many. Both Jesus and Mary have a profound impact on MANY.

This is why I have asked the Protestants what they believe the prophecy means. If Mary’s importance ended when she gave birth to the Lord, why would there be a future prophecy given in scripture concerning her and what does it mean and/or when in the scriptures was it fulfilled?

So far, all I have received was a shallow explanation of how the suffering of Christ caused her grief, which as I stated earlier could be said of any mother whose child is tortured and crucified -followed by an interpretation that reveals a corrupting of the gospel of Luke. (From which I assume is a Protestant bible.)

Can anyone offer anything more substantial?

Thal59
My answer was brief but not shallow.
Catholics want to pronounce Mary as CoRedemdrix and give her a position which was never intended. You are, by this scripture, attempting to build that case. My answer is SolaChristo —by Christ alone. When you say you agree to that then immediately want to give Mary some of the glory, honor and praise that only Jesus should have then you belie your statement.
 
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Mordocai:
Just some thoughts I had:

When Christ’s heart was pierced by the lance, Mary’s heart was pierced by the sword. Yes of course any mother would be crushed by such things, **but now the ‘handmaiden of the Lord’ whose soul ‘magnifies the Lord’ is now being humbled at the foot of the Cross to such an extent that only one other person in history ever humbled himself more: Jesus.
Mary’s heart ‘reveals the thoughts of many’ because Mary’s role in salvation is so significant that God has elevated her to the level of mediatrix of graces. **
Perhaps the thoughts that her heart ‘reveals’ are our thoughts to God so to speak. Yes of course God knows the hearts of all men, but I like to think of Mary as God’s special “reminder-er” 🙂 ) She was so in tune (and is in tune) with God, that she felt His pain when Jesus suffered. She represents our mother in the faith appealing to the Father.
And what better way to tug on the King’s ear but through the queen?
In bold. Absolutely wonderful! 👍
 
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SolaChristo:
Im not sure you can get to where you want by going where you are going.
Different languages have differing grammatical rules.
I would go to my interlinnear bible (at home) Im now at work. But the word structure of the original language would be for that language and not for english. You talk abgout corrupt translations, however when the translators translate from the original text their theological bias will always come into play depending how they apply the rules of interpretation. This is an polemic that only those conversant in Hebrew and or Aramaic (depending on the text could fully examine).
First of all, I have no predetermined place to go with this thread. I wanted the Protestant take on the prophecy in question.

Secondly, the bulk of your remarks above are absolutely correct. But consider the fact that for almost 1600 years the Aramaic, Hebrew, Latin, and Greek scholars of both the Catholic and Protestant churches have delivered Luke 2:35 in a manner such as… “And your soul a sword shall pierce, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”

Suddenly, the expression “that the thoughts of many hearts shall be revealed…” is attached to verse 34 where it never belong for 1600 years. And this is not the only instance of this happening. Do you see the problem, SolaChristo? Catholics and Protestants have been arguing over scriptural interpretation for almost 500 years now.

Mess with the proper structure of the text and we are creating the opportunity for another 500 years of pointless argument. Continue to alter the words and sentence structures whenever one feels the need to confuse an issue and the arguing goes on forever; the word of God is no longer the word of God, and the bible becomes a worthless book of religiously biased personal opinions.

Thal59
 
Catholics want to pronounce Mary as CoRedemdrix and give her a position which was never intended. <<<
Some Catholics do, but this Catholic does not.
You are, by this scripture, attempting to build that case.<<<
Not in the least. I am simply asking for Protestants to give me their take on the prophecy of Simeon. But as you can see, the Protestant bias against Mary is making that impossible. It is almost as if the Protestants on this website are terror-stricken to answer this question.
My answer is SolaChristo —by Christ alone.<<<
Congratulations. Many on this forum agree. But you are still not answering the original question.
When you say you agree to that then immediately want to give Mary some of the glory, honor and praise that only Jesus should have then you belie your statement.<<<
Nonsense. I do NOT want to give Mary some of the glory, honor and praise that only Jesus should have. (You have jumped to the assumption that I am.) I want to hear the Protestant interpretation of the prophecy of Simeon as it concerns Mary. If there is anything that is betrayed, it is your inner motives. When you say that I want to give glory, honor, and praise to Mary, you are admitting that you **fear **the prophecy of Simeon is somehow glorifying or praising Mary in a way that is repugnant to you. That is why you will not answer the question. Or ist it possible that no Protestant has answered it? Is this why the newer Protestant bibles corrupt the original rendering of Luke 2 verses 34 and 35?

For the books, your answer is…

“Christs passion is the sword that pierces Mary’s heart.”

First of all, the text says the soul, not the heart. (You have, in typical Protestant fashion, subconsciously watered-down the text.) Secondly, I have stated and restated that such a statement could be applied to any mother whose child was tortured and crucified. I am not saying your answer is wrong, only that it doesn’t seem to answer the prophecy specifically.

Daniel Marsh, after cobbling Ephesians, Hebrews, and Romans together in a way that is like puzzle pieces that don’t mesh evenly offers…

"Off the top of my head, the sword that will pierce Mary’s heart is the word of God and that word reveals the sin in Mary’s heart —
“the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed.”

Again, the Protestant reduces the “soul” in the prophecy to the “heart,” thereby lessening the magnitude of the prophecy in an attempt to diminish Mary. The rest of the interpretation is shallow. What sin in Mary’s heart? Mary was the first to acquiesce to the word of God when she submitted to the Angel’s words that she would bear the Christ. How can the one who brought the word of God into the world in the flesh be accused by the word of God?

This is indeed a novel attempt to make the prophecy appear to somehow expose Mary.

I have only two answers from Protestants, neither of which answer the question directly.

“And your soul a sword shall pierce, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”

Focus on the words of Simeon. A “sword” of some kind shall pierce the “soul” of Mary. The end effect is that the thoughts of many hearts (NOT Mary’s) are revealed.

Is there any other Protestants other than SolaChristo and Daniel Marsh who have something to offer?

Thal59
 
OK, what’s your interpretation?

I’m rather confused by the fact that you don’t think the prophecy refers to Mary’s sorrow at Christ’s crucifixion. I thought everyone was agreed on that. And if you want to say that it points toward Mary sharing in some way in Christ’s sufferings, I have no problem with that either.

I don’t get why you think that the statement has to refer to some unique suffering beyond that of any mother whose son is killed. If it’s a prophecy of Christ’s Passion, that’s a real prophecy. Mary didn’t know that she would live to see her son die. It’s not a trivial statement.

I’m not arguing the point that Mary’s suffering was unique because of the nature of Christ’s Passion. I’ll concede that gladly. But I don’t quite see how your argument works–I don’t even know exactly what you are trying to argue, since you say you aren’t arguing for the Co-Redemptrix doctrine.

Edwin
 
Thal59 said:
>>>
“Christs passion is the sword that pierces Mary’s heart.”

First of all, the text says the soul, not the heart. (You have, in typical Protestant fashion, subconsciously watered-down the text.)

The heart is part of the soul, the soul includes the heart. The Greek word for thought is the same as heart.

Secondly, I have stated and restated that such a statement could be applied to any mother whose child was tortured and crucified. I am not saying your answer is wrong, only that it doesn’t seem to answer the prophecy specifically.

I agree

Daniel Marsh, after cobbling Ephesians, Hebrews, and Romans together in a way that is like puzzle pieces that don’t mesh evenly offers…

"Off the top of my head, the sword that will pierce Mary’s heart is the word of God and that word reveals the sin in Mary’s heart —
“the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed.”

Again, the Protestant reduces the “soul” in the prophecy to the “heart,” thereby lessening the magnitude of the prophecy in an attempt to diminish Mary. The rest of the interpretation is shallow. What sin in Mary’s heart? Mary was the first to acquiesce to the word of God when she submitted to the Angel’s words that she would bear the Christ. How can the one who brought the word of God into the world in the flesh be accused by the word of God?

This is indeed a novel attempt to make the prophecy appear to somehow expose Mary.

I have only two answers from Protestants, neither of which answer the question directly.

“And your soul a sword shall pierce, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”

Focus on the words of Simeon. A “sword” of some kind shall pierce the “soul” of Mary. The end effect is that the thoughts of many hearts (NOT Mary’s) are revealed.

Focus on sword, It is the sword, the passion, the brutal beating, the scourging, the crucifying that reveals the thoughts of many souls.

Is there any other Protestants other than SolaChristo and Daniel Marsh who have something to offer?

Sorry youll have to settle on my (name removed by moderator)ut 👍

Thal59
 
Mary’s Cooperation in the Redemption

Sciptural Foundation


Many Protestants claim that the more advanced doctrines of the Catholic Church about Mary are unscriptural. They say this especially about our teaching concerning her cooperation in the redemption.

First, we want to notice that in the very earliest Fathers of the Church, such as St. Justin Martyr (c. 145-150), we find the New Eve doctrine, i.e., that just as the first Eve really contributed to the damage of original sin, so Mary, the New Eve, really contributed to removing it. They had in mind her obedient acceptance, in faith, to be the Mother of the Messiah.

But today the Church has considerably developed that early teaching. We quote a very official text, the Constitution on the Church of Vatican II, P61: “… in suffering with Him as He died on the cross, she cooperated in the work of the Savior, in an altogether singular way, by obedience, faith, hope and burning love, to restore supernatural life to souls.” This same doctrine is found in every Pope from Leo XIII up to and including John Paul II.

So Vatican II was merely restating a repeated teaching. But the way it expressed it is very helpful. It said her role on Calvary was one of obedience. Earlier, in # 56, it had pointed out that obedience twice, in citing St. Irenaeus (late second century): “By obeying, she became a cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race.” Then (we first recall the comparison St. Irenaeus made of all sin to a complex knot, in which the Saint said that to untie a knot, one must take the end of the rope backwards through every turn taken in tying it) it added, from St. Irenaeus: “Thus then, the knot of the disobedience of Eve was untied through the obedience of Mary.”

At first sight this teaching seems to have no basis in Scripture. But if we look more closely, we will see something quite obvious. First, at the Annunciation, she was asked to consent, in faith, to be the Mother of the Messiah. She knew this perfectly clearly, for as soon as the Archangel said, “He will reign over the house of Jacob forever,” she knew that only the Messiah could reign forever. So she knew it was the Messiah. Then there would begin to crowd into her thoughts all the ancient prophecies of the Messiah, especially Isaiah 53, of His dreadful sufferings and death. She was asked to consent to be the Mother of such a Messiah.

She did consent, as St. Luke tells us, saying: "Be it done to me according to your word. "She gave her fiat, her obedience to the will of God, as the angel told her of His will. Did she later retract this acceptance of God’s will? Of course not. Any soul either falls back or goes ahead in holiness. Holiness really consists in the alignment of our wills, through grace, with the will of God–for the free will is the only thing free we have. So Mary faithfully stood by Him, keeping in the background when the crowds gave Him praise, but moving out into the dark blackness that hung over Calvary. There she stood.

What was her reaction? Of course, she grieved, as any Mother would, seeing her Son suffering so horribly. And she saw that suffering as our crucifixes do not generally let us see it–they contain no trace at all of the horrid scourging, leaving Him bloody all over.

But now we can begin to realize something tremendous. As we said, spiritual perfection consists in the alignment of our will with the will of the Father. Further, when we know what He positively wills, it is not enough for us to say, as it were: “Let it go”. No, we are called on to positively will what He wills. But what did He will in that dread hour? She knew from Isaiah 53:10: “It was the will of the Lord to crush Him with pain.” So the Father willed that His Son should die, die then, die so horribly. So did the Son will it. So she was then called upon to will what the Father willed, what her Son willed, in other words, she was called on to will positively that He die, die then, die horribly.

We must add: the redemption was, under one aspect, the making of the New Covenant, foretold by Jeremiah 31:31 ff: “I will make a New covenant. It will not be like the covenant I made with your Fathers, for they broke my covenant, and I had to show myself their master. But this is the Covenant. I will write my law on their heart. I will be their God, and they will be my people.”

In the Covenant of Sinai, the essential condition had been the obedience of the people (Ex 19:5): “If you really hearken to my voice, and keep my covenant, you will be my special people.” So the New Covenant would have again as its essential condition obedience, which Jeremiah expressed by speaking of a law written on hearts. Perhaps Jeremiah did not see it fully, but that obedience was to be the obedience of Christ.
 
(cont’d…)

What did that law of the Father, written on her heart call for? It called for what we have just said: That she positively will that her Son die, die then, die so horribly. In that, she was joining in the fulfillment of the Covenant condition. He, in Gethsemani, had said: “If it be possible, let this chalice pass … but nonetheless, not what I will, but what you will.” In other words, He obeyed. St. Paul stressed that too in Rom 5:19: “Just as by the disobedience of the one man [the first Adam] the many were made sinners [original sin] so by the obedience of the one man [the New Adam] the many will be constituted just.”

In fact, had His death taken place without obedience, it would not have been a redemption, it would have been merely a tragedy. So it was obedience that was the covenant condition, it was that which gave the value to His death.

To look at the same reality from a different perspective, His death was a sacrifice. God had once complained through Isaiah 29:13: “This people honors me with their lips … their hearts are far from me.” The ancient Jews were very adept at what is sometimes, simplistically, called “participation.” They loved to make the responses, to sing, to join in processions. But too often it was all empty, for their hearts were far from Him: their hearts did not act in obedience.

But Jesus did offer His sacrifice in obedience. So just as obedience is the covenant condition, so too, it is that without which His sacrifice would be as worthless as those of which God complained through Isaiah.

From a third perspective, the redemption was an act of reparation to make up for sin. Since sin is disobedience of God’s will, it was, once again, Christ’s obedience which gave his death value to make up for sin. But we return to Our Lady. At the annunciation, she obeyed, she said her fiat. She knew too much for comfort even then, of what that entailed, as we explained above. But now in the blackness of Calvary, she was called on to continue to obey the will of the Father. That she did. As we said, we know this since any soul is required to conform its will to that of the Father. But then, she knew that will of the Father, knew it all too well. It was that He should die then, die horribly. So what she had to do, unless she would break with the Father, was to will what He willed, to will the terrible death of her Son.

All this is, of course, entirely Scriptural. It merely points out that at the start, she obeyed in saying her fiat, as St. Luke tells us. At the Cross, as any soul that loves the will of the Father must do, she had to continue her fiat, to continue to obey. Isaiah 53 had said that, “by His stripes we are healed”, that, “it was the will of the Lord to crush Him in pain.” Even the Targum knew Isaiah spoke of the Messiah, although in the stiff-necks of many, the message was even inverted. But she was not such, she understood, and yet she did not take back her fiat, she obeyed the will of the Lord. That obedience of hers was a joining in the essential condition of the New Covenant, it was a joining in the necessary interior of His sacrifice.

Her love of Him would multiply the difficulty. It was the love of the best of Mothers for the best of Sons, a Son whom she understood as no other person could. We cannot really calculate the terrible difficulty of her obedience, going counter to such love.

Would the Father accept her obedience as part of the covenant obedience? In the old covenant, He accepted the obedience of even very ordinary, sinful people–how much more hers! Would He put her in such straits, call on her to obey when it was so incredibly hard, and then not accept her obedience as part of the covenant condition even as He had accepted the obedience of very ordinary, sinful people, as we said, in the old covenant.

He could have redeemed us with something immeasurably less painful–the mere fact of the incarnation, even without so much as a short prayer added, would have been superabundant. Yet in His love of all goodness, in His love of us, He would not stop short when there was any way to make it all richer. It was in that attitude that He called for the death of His Son, that He called for her immeasurably difficult obedience.

So, Vatican II in its teaching, merely unfolded, by pondering in hearts, what the Scripture contains, and what the Church over the course of the centuries has gradually come to understand: “In suffering with Him as He died on the cross, she cooperated in the work of the Savior”–in the essential requirement of the New Covenant, in the essential interior of the Great Sacrifice–“by obedience, faith, hope and burning love.”
 
Objection

Now about the objection that since she had to be redeemed, she could not cooperate in the redemption, which would include her own redemption, we have two replies:
  1. the Magisterium has taught repeatedly, so often as to constitute an infallible teaching, that she did so cooperate. We see in the collection of papal teachings how precise and clear this teaching is. It cannot be taken as something merely loose or vague, especially since LG ## 56, 61 had said three times that she shared by obedience, the covenant condition, and that which gave its value even to His sacrifice. Pius XII, in the constitution solemnly defining the assumption, had even gone so far as to speak of her role on Calvary as a work “in common” with Him. Even if we could not explain the how, we should still believe an infallible teaching. The saying is very true: a thousand difficulties do not add up to one doubt, when the assurance of the truth is full.
  2. We have said that one major aspect of the redemption is that it is a new covenant. Two comments on that:
a) He who makes a covenant does not ask, need not ask of a proposed covenantor: Are you worthy to fulfil this condition, so that if you do this, I will do that? No, the one who makes the covenant has the sovereign right to set whatever terms and conditions He wishes, and to choose whoever he wishes as a covenant partner, especially when the originator of the covenant is God Himself. Really, He could have set as a condition for the whole of redemption an animal sacrifice by any ordinary human, and have even bound Himself by advance promise to accept it.

b) There are two levels within the new covenant, so that if we ask why God gives good things under it, there are two answers, on the two levels. First, on the most basic level, everything He gives is unmerited, unmeritable, for no creature by its own power can establish a claim on God. And He cannot be moved at all. But then, on the secondary level, that is, given the fact that the Father has freely created and entered into a covenant, then if the human fulfills the condition set, the Father owes it to Himself to give what He has promised. Really, even the death of Jesus was on this secondary level. It did not move the Father: He could not be moved, did not need to be moved. It was because the Father always loved us that Jesus came, not that Jesus came and then the Father dropped His anger.

The old language on this subject often spoke much of meriting redemption on a basis of justice. But we must never forget that no creature at all can ever establish any kind of claim on God, whether in justice or on a lesser level, by its own power. It can establish any sort of claim only if God as it were says: “If you do this, I will do that.” So St. Augustine wrote well in saying to God (Confessions 9. 5): “You deign to even become a debtor by your promises to those to whom you forgive their debts.”

So there is no need to think of Mary as if she had to earn on a primary, basic level. No, as we saw, even the work of Jesus, infinite though it was, was on the secondary level. It was, to borrow an expression from St. Thomas, a hoc propter hoc (ST I. 19. 5. c) "Vult hoc esse propter hoc, sed non propter hoc vult hoc. That is: God in His love of good order, of all that is right, loves to have one thing in place to serve as a reason or title for giving the second thing, even though that title does not at all move Him. Again, we must not forget that He cannot be moved, and needed not to be moved to love us.

When we finally grasp this perspective, when we realize that even the merits of His Son did not move the Father, who did not need to be moved, who could not be moved, but who made a setup suited to His own purpose–we already saw that that purpose entailed two things: His desire to fully satisfy everything that was right, i.e. , to rebalance the scales of the objective order, and, secondly to provide a means of giving to us, of making us open to receive.

Within, then, such a framework, with such an attitude on the part of Our Father, if He, the supreme master who makes the covenant, wants to set whatever condition it pleases Him to set, then if any human, even if it were a mere, an ordinary human, if that human fulfills the covenant condition, then the human is providing the Father with a reason for giving, which the Father did not need, but yet willed for the two reasons just reviewed. So if Our Lady joins in the condition set by the Father, there is no problem at all: she is meeting the condition which His excessive generosity liked to set, as a means of giving us abundant life.
 
"Corredemptrix"

Mary’s cooperation in the work of redemption is sometimes expressed by giving her the title “Corredemptrix.” The Popes have used this title, but more rarely and in documents of lesser weight, because it easily admits of misunderstanding. The first extant use of the title is in a fourtheenth century liturgical book from Salzburg. The prefix “co-” signifies that Mary does not contribute independently to the redemption, but only as associated with her divine Son.

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya3.htm
 
The Latin text says:

Et tuam ipsius animam pertransiet gladius ut revelentur ex multis cordibus cogitationes

Translating:

And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts thoughts may be revealed.
 
read E.E.N.S. POST----------------THAT IS PRECISELY WHY i POSTED AS i DID PREVIOUSLY!
 
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SolaChristo:
read E.E.N.S. POST----------------THAT IS PRECISELY WHY i POSTED AS i DID PREVIOUSLY!
You are following the mistaken notion that if Mary is a CoRedemptorix, then that means you cannot be redeemed without her. That is not what it means. When you profess complete allegiance, faith, and trust in Jesus to redeem and save you, you are correct.

But to the Catholic mind, which does not have so powerful a hatred of Mary, we can see that there are instances in scripture of the woman and the child that indicate a closer link between the two that exceedes the mere mother/child relationship that any other mother experiences.
  1. The woman and her seed in Genesis.
  2. The virgin who will bring forth the Messiah in Isaiah.
  3. The virgin of Israel in Jeremiah.
  4. The woman in travail who brings forth the child in Michah.
  5. Mary in the Gospels.
  6. The woman clothed with the sun etc., in Revelations.
Just to name a few.

There are snipets all over the scriptures that can’t be accidental. Look at Michah 6:4 where the Lord says…

“For I brought thee up out of the land of Egypt, and delivered thee out of the house of slaves: and I sent before thy face Moses, and Aaron, and Mary.”

Why in heaven’s name would God Himself, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, move Michah to mention along with Moses and Aaron… Mary, the sister of Moses? Mary is associated with her brother Moses, the mediator of the old covenant, and with Aaron the high priest.

Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant and our high priest in the heavenly holy of holies. Yet there is still the linking of Mary and Jesus throughout the NT…

“And your (Mary’s) own soul a sword shall pierce…”
“They shall look on Him (Jesus) whom they pierced.”
“He (Jesus) shall be a sign of contradiction, for the rise and fall of many.”
“And your (Mary’s) own soul a sword shall pierce, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”
Focus on sword, It is the sword, the passion, the brutal beating, the scourging, the crucifying that reveals the thoughts of many souls.<<
This is not supported by many experts. The Koine Greek term for sword in the Simeon canticle is not merely a sword…

“The ‘sword’ of which St.Luke speaks of (*hereb *in Hebrew, romphaia in Greek was the sword of the Thracians and other barbarian peoples, much larger than the makaira or short-sword.”
(Landucci, Maria SS. nel Vangelo, p.152)

Metaphorically it could mean…
  1. Tongue (Psalms 59:8 64:4)
  2. Chastisement or ruin (Ez 5:1-7; 14-17)
  3. The judgement of God’s word. (Heb 4:12)
Whichever it is, we must consider it a weapon that inflicts a fatal wound. (Stefano M. Manelli, F.F.I. “All Generations Shall Call Me Blessed.” p.246)

I was hoping that the Protestants would have a “dyed-in-the-wool” answer for this. I wanted to see what their perspective was as I have been reading mostly Catholic sources. However, the anti-Marian bias has shown me that they do not have a valid interpretation. I assumed they had one, but I guess not.

CONTARINI… “OK, what’s your interpretation?”

I do not have one. I am still looking. I do not try to prove or disprove the CoRedemptorix approach. It just seems to me that there is something special in Simeon’s prophecy. E.E.N.S may have made a good case for it. But I don’t know. I am trying to tie it together.

Thal59
 
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