Question for the next JW who may be dropping by

[adf417]

I cant seem to get a direct answer to this question from another JW im in conversation with so I would like to pose it here…

Logical progression…(remember, logic is also from God)

1. Ez 30:13 says God will destroy Idols.
2. Idolatry - worship of anything not God.
3. I, and billions of others, worship Jesus
4. JW position - Jesus is not God

Conclusion 1 – Jesus must be an idol
Conclusion 2 – God will destroy Jesus

Obviously God will not destroy Jesus, I think we all agree. So one of the following must be true…
A. God will not destroy ALL Idols.
B. Idolatry has a different meaning.
C. I don’t know what I actually worship and if I don’t I cannot ever know - and this must go both ways, if not we will follow another logical progression.
D. JW position is wrong.

If “D” above is not the final conclusion, please show me where this logic if flawed.

Im sure this may not be clearly spelled out progression so any clearity from others is welcome.

Peace!!!

 

[Memaw]

I cant seem to get a direct answer to this question from another JW im in conversation with so I would like to pose it here…

Logical progression…(remember, logic is also from God)

1. Ez 30:13 says God will destroy Idols.
2. Idolatry - worship of anything not God.
3. I, and billions of others, worship Jesus
4. JW position - Jesus is not God

Conclusion 1 – Jesus must be an idol
Conclusion 2 – God will destroy Jesus

Obviously God will not destroy Jesus, I think we all agree. So one of the following must be true…
A. God will not destroy ALL Idols.
B. Idolatry has a different meaning.
C. I don’t know what I actually worship and if I don’t I cannot ever know - and this must go both ways, if not we will follow another logical progression.
D. JW position is wrong.

If “D” above is not the final conclusion, please show me where this logic if flawed.

Im sure this may not be clearly spelled out progression so any clearity from others is welcome.

Peace!!!

If your not sure how to defend your Catholic Faith, then just tell them you are Catholic and not interested, they will do all they can to sway you in their direction by casting doubts!! Beware!!! Go on catholicanswers. com for more information. God Bless, Memaw

 

[spiderweb]

Just some (hopefully) constructive criticism.
*

1. Ez 30:13 says God will destroy Idols.
2. Idolatry - worship of anything not God.*

This seems to be a flawed argument. The idols mentioned in Ezekiel seem to refer to statues and images that are being worshiped as God, not to real persons being destroyed.

My personal favorite is John 5:23, “that all may honor the son, just as the Father”. Worship is the highest form of honor. And this is demonstrated in Rev 5:13-14.

 

[inocente]

Found this on their website, which says they believe Jesus is real but don’t worship him. I think Jews and Muslims also believe Jesus is real but is not God. He’s not an idol to them, and he’s not an idol to you, and they can’t tell you what to believe, so where’s the problem?

 

[omgriley]

I cant seem to get a direct answer to this question from another JW im in conversation with so I would like to pose it here…

Logical progression…(remember, logic is also from God)

1. Ez 30:13 says God will destroy Idols.
2. Idolatry - worship of anything not God.
3. I, and billions of others, worship Jesus
4. JW position - Jesus is not God

Conclusion 1 – Jesus must be an idol
Conclusion 2 – God will destroy Jesus

Obviously God will not destroy Jesus, I think we all agree. So one of the following must be true…
A. God will not destroy ALL Idols.
B. Idolatry has a different meaning.
C. I don’t know what I actually worship and if I don’t I cannot ever know - and this must go both ways, if not we will follow another logical progression.
D. JW position is wrong.

If “D” above is not the final conclusion, please show me where this logic if flawed.

Im sure this may not be clearly spelled out progression so any clearity from others is welcome.

Peace!!!

My thought is that your friend will probably select option A, and back it up with some bizarre translation of the Ezekiel. The JW’s are notorious for letting their per-determined theology guide how they translate the Bible, so it would not surprise me to see them attempt to translate Ez 30:13 erroneously.

On the other hand they could also attempt to simply explain it away. Perhaps your friend will claim that God will in fact destroy all idols, and that this has nothing to do with Jesus because Jesus is not an idol. He’s merely a creature whom we have misunderstood to be God. Thus the fault would be ours’ and not Jesus’.

To me though, this passage isn’t the most effective when it comes to pointing out the errors of the JWs.

Instead I would ask your friend to explain his position on something like the doctrine of Hell. JWs reject the existence of Hell. Point out to them these passages:

he shall be tormented with fire and sulfur . . . the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest" (Rev. 14:11)

“Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;” (Matt. 25:41)

You can also visit the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, which is a story Jesus Himself told. There are also multiple times in Matthew’s Gospel where he describes the dead sinners in a state where they “weep and gnash their teeth.” Obviously this can only refer to a conscious state of sorrow and torment.

All of this I find to be much better artillery for confronting JWs.

Btw, I don’t know if you know this or not, but don’t go by their Bible. Not even a word. Like I said before, the JWs have no qualms with blatantly rewriting the Bible.

 

[undead_rat]

I often talk to JWs and really have nothing against them. However if you are expecting any of them to engage in an honest back and forth dialogue, you will be disappointed.
That is not what they do. Rather they have a script and will stick to it.

When I mention the Shroud of Turin, they reply: “That’s not in the Bible, so we don’t need it.”

 

[Jomann]

JW’s believe that:

*Jehovah is God
*Jesus is a god
*millions of false gods

And that’s it. JW’s don’t debate and are not interested in philosophy or theology.

They can only change their minds if the Governing Body says so. They only accept what the GB says.

If they come to your house they’re in a script mode and will not listen. They just want to count hours because they must work in the door to the door activity for about ten hours monthly. They do that because it’s necessary for their salvation and not yours. They consider non-JW’s as bird food because they believe after Armageddon the birds will eat the corpses of more than 90% of humanity.

 

[john1513]

My guess is

B. Idolatry has a different meaning.

In my frequent and regular discussions with JWs, you can make the Bible mean whatever you want it to mean, just like any Christian, atheist, etc. can. It’s pointless to use the Bible to argue doctrine. It was not made for that.

It (Catholicism) does not, in the conventional phrase, believe what the Bible says, for the simple reason that the Bible does not say anything. You cannot put a book in the witness-box and ask it what it really means. The Fundamentalist controversy itself destroys Fundamentalism. The Bible by itself cannot be a basis of agreement when it is a cause of disagreement; it cannot be the common ground of Christians when some take it allegorically and some literally. The Catholic refers it to something that can say something, to the living, consistent, and continuous mind of which I have spoken; the highest mind of man guided by God.

• G. K. Chesterton

 

[friardchips]

I cant seem to get a direct answer to this question from another JW im in conversation…

The best question for a JW is to ask them what time their next bus or train is and to suggest whether they might like to leave.

The answer will be “no” to the suggestion because they would prefer at all costs, to try and hypnotize you, with the training that they have had and they themselves have been mind-warped with.

You are playing with fire.

Best thing to do: when they come to the door. Say, “No, I am a Catholic and believe that Jesus is God. Goodbye.” Or, simply, don’t answer the door.

 

[omgriley]

JW’s believe that:

*Jehovah is God
*Jesus is a god
*millions of false gods

And that’s it. JW’s don’t debate and are not interested in philosophy or theology.

They can only change their minds if the Governing Body says so. They only accept what the GB says.

If they come to your house they’re in a script mode and will not listen. They just want to count hours because they must work in the door to the door activity for about ten hours monthly. They do that because it’s necessary for their salvation and not yours. They consider non-JW’s as bird food because they believe after Armageddon the birds will eat the corpses of more than 90% of humanity.

Wow. I never considered that, but good point.

I usually like to discuss with them the concept of “a god” being absurd. Define “God” and they will agree that it means the all knowing, all loving, all powerful supreme act of Being Itself, and then ask them how there could be more than one such being. Instant bear trap.

But as you pointed out, they usually don’t care about theology. Sad.

EDIT
I may have used the wrong term when I said “bear trap”. I am not trying trap people, rather expose them to a deep error in the logic of their religion’s beliefs.

 

[adf417]

I am quite aware of the JW positions and motivations as ive been in personal “conversations” about many aspects of our differences for many years. For those who think im waisting my time, well dont thing think your alone. My wife shares your thoughts.

I brought this here mainly for any other JW that might drop by and want to give a thoughtful reply to this “conundrum” that THEIR faith seems to deliver.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia,
Idolatry etymologically denotes Divine worship given to an image, but its signification has been extended to all Divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God. St. Thomas (Summa Theol., II-II, q. xciv) I do not think they disagree with this.

If this is true, and since billions of people around the world worship Jesus, and if Jesus is not God, then… how does a JW explain what will happen to Jesus?

They do not agree with what/who we worship and will not allow us to decide what/who it is we worship as they “know” better. I could see where an answer could be - “you actually don’t worship Jesus”.

But so far the only answers i have been given is how we should position Jesus in our worship and that we should worship only Jehovah. No direct andwer to the question. But i am hopful!

Peace to all!!!

 

[omgriley]

I am quite aware of the JW positions and motivations as ive been in personal “conversations” about many aspects of our differences for many years. For those who think im waisting my time, well dont thing think your alone. My wife shares your thoughts.

I brought this here mainly for any other JW that might drop by and want to give a thoughtful reply to this “conundrum” that THEIR faith seems to deliver.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia,
Idolatry etymologically denotes Divine worship given to an image, but its signification has been extended to all Divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God. St. Thomas (Summa Theol., II-II, q. xciv) I do not think they disagree with this.

If this is true, and since billions of people around the world worship Jesus, and if Jesus is not God, then… how does a JW explain what will happen to Jesus?

They do not agree with what/who we worship and will not allow us to decide what/who it is we worship as they “know” better. I could see where an answer could be - “you actually don’t worship Jesus”.

But so far the only answers i have been given is how we should position Jesus in our worship and that we should worship only Jehovah. No direct andwer to the question. But i am hopful!

Peace to all!!!

Forgive me, I wasn’t trying to imply that you didn’t know their beliefs.
Your statement reminds me of an old joke a priest told me about a righteous man who was told that he was certainly a saint. He simply replied “If you think that’s true, then just ask my wife.” LOL

I would just say that of all people, a JW is the least likely to come to a place like this. Remember that it’s their MO to have nothing to do with any sort of critique of their religion.

 

[friardchips]

I am quite aware of the JW positions and motivations as ive been in personal “conversations” about many aspects of our differences for many years. For those who think im waisting my time, well dont thing think your alone. My wife shares your thoughts.

The jokey response to this by another poster was funny.

I think that if one is attempting to convert JWs then they ought to have a prayer group praying for them. The circumstances that come about naturally whereby you have opportunities to evangelise are surely different to engaging with people with the sole aim of converting in any moment of your choice. This needs discernment, I reckon.

…that THEIR faith seems to deliver.

‘Faith’ is one word; ‘manipulation techniques’, an alternative.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia,
Idolatry etymologically denotes Divine worship given to an image, but its signification has been extended to all Divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God. St. Thomas (Summa Theol., II-II, q. xciv) I do not think they disagree with this.

I think St. Thomas means that idolatry is extended to worship given over to false ideals and gods, as Worship is only meant for the Divine. (There are no other real gods). So there can be no Divine Worship if people are not worshipping God (no need for the word ‘true’). This is not to say that people are not just trying to reach the true identity of God. But if they are actively denying the true identity then they are counteracting their own efforts.

Not getting into the rest of this discussion.

 

[Rosebud77]

Why do you engage with them?

A brace of them came to my LOCKEd gate in gale and I just told tham I am Catholic , to go away and not come back and went in. The dog was barking.

They LOVE to argue and feed on it and will never change… wear me out they would,

 

[adf417]

Why do you engage with them?

A brace of them came to my LOCKEd gate in gale and I just told tham I am Catholic , to go away and not come back and went in. The dog was barking.

They LOVE to argue and feed on it and will never change… wear me out they would,

Close family members… It is as much my motivation as theirs, maybe more. My motivation as to wanting a personal relationship with my family whom i love in the midths of knowing their judgment of my “worship” is judged by someone other than God. This kind of judgment is hard to deal with but they are family and i continue to try.

Peace!!!

 

[Porknpie]

just tell them you are Catholic and not interested
Best thing to do: when they come to the door. Say, “No, I am a Catholic and believe that Jesus is God. Goodbye.” Or, simply, don’t answer the door.

Hmm. Me thinks neither St. Paul or nor St. Augustine would have done so. I think they would have invited them in, fed them milk and cookies, and shared the truth with them. Show them first and foremost the charity of the heart.

I recommend that Catholic’s who are well Catechized do so.

But don’t expect a conversion experience on the spot. We can and should drop seeds and led the Holy Spirit do the rest.

My favorite question for JW’s (and just about any protestant):

How is it that you know and trust that all 27 books of the NT are God’s written word, and that no books have been left out that are? And… were those Christians “infallible” in their discernment and affirmation of what books belong in this canon?

They have NO idea how the canon of scripture came to be, who did so, when, and with what authority. It’s a great place to start. The second place to go to is John 6, and I ask them to show me who in John 6 took Jesus as speaking symbolically.

I don’t debate the divinity of Jesus with them head on, but drop seeds on a couple of areas that they are not as well informed.

To the first question, I’ve had more then one walk away when I tell them it was Catholic Bishops in the 4th century that they tacitly trust.

 

[spedteacherita]

Why do you engage with them?

A brace of them came to my LOCKEd gate in gale and I just told tham I am Catholic , to go away and not come back and went in. The dog was barking.

They LOVE to argue and feed on it and will never change… wear me out they would,

I have many JW’s on my mom’s side of the family and I feel it’s my duty as a Christian to share Christ’s Good News to them as often as I can. They do like to argue and have their apologetics down pat but you never know what you say may make them doubt and research on their own. The Holy Spirit can use any tiny doubt to bring them to faith in Christ. Just a thought.

Blessings, Rita

 

[friardchips]

Hmm. Me thinks neither St. Paul or nor St. Augustine would have done so. I think they would have invited them in, fed them milk and cookies, and shared the truth with them. Show them first and foremost the charity of the heart.

St. Augustine, if I am not much mistaken, said that one must start dialogue by looking for what is true in Scripture and not what is false. It is that which leads us to more Truth.

I do not think he would have agreed with your statement here. I am open to being proved incorrect if you can show me some evidence of this.

I recommend that Catholic’s who are well Catechized do so.

But don’t expect a conversion experience on the spot. We can and should drop seeds and led the Holy Spirit do the rest.

This again, seems rather distant from actual reality.

While it might be advised to drop some seed if one doesn’t purposefully enter such an environment does not equal purposefully going into such an environment to convert. For a start, this is disingenuous. And one is being a bit conceited if one does this without thinking there might not be come-back.

If you wish to dialogue with JWs purely to convert then no one can stop you but I still find your advice to be negligent and slightly lacking in education considering it involves urging others to do as you might.

 

[Porknpie]

I do not think he would have agreed with your statement here. I am open to being proved incorrect if you can show me some evidence of this. .

St. Augustine is synonymous with charity. His charity, evident in his responding to Manichaeism, Donatism and Pelagianism came a large part from his having gone astray as a Manichean for 9 years. Those who converted him back to the Church were most patient with him, showing him much charity. He acknowledged this and returned the same charity, even more, with those involved in these heresies. In short, even at the risk of his life, he never shut the door and told them to go away. He always invited them in, even seeking them out. He was a model for evangelization.

An example below.

See NPNF-04 the Epistle of the Manichaeus called Fundamental, chapter 3 :

“… I must be as patient towards you as my associates were with me, when I went madly and blindly astray in your beliefs.”

“Let neither of us assert that he has found the truth; let us seek it as if it were unknown to us both”

 

[friardchips]

St. Augustine is synonymous with charity. His charity, evident in his responding to Manichaeism, Donatism and Pelagianism came a large part from his having gone astray as a Manichean for 9 years.

Hi. Thanks for getting back. He argued with people before his conversion whilst on the way to discovery of the Catholic faith. These were concepts/movements with which he was debating, and refuting.

Those who converted him back to the Church were most patient with him, showing him much charity.

He was converted by St. Ambrose when St. Augustine heard him preaching. I think I remember reading that they argued with one another on occasion. St. Ambrose was known to have a tempter.

He acknowledged this and returned the same charity, even more, with those involved in these heresies. In short, even at the risk of his life, he never shut the door and told them to go away. He always invited them in, even seeking them out. He was a model for evangelization.

With respect, St. Augustine would not have mixed with those who are are known to use manipulation techniques including forms of hypnotism.

You need to read his book Confessions. It will put everything in the right order for you, timeline-wise. I would guess and say that if St. Augustine didn’t kick them out, then
St. Ambrose night have done…

…and this would have been out of charity. One does not Tempt the Spirit. Or put oneself in near occasion of sin. If JWs came to his door, he would have said his piece, and left it. Noticing the signs of people who have been brain-washed. Either that, or he would have sought to giving them some kind of spiritual blessing to vanquish demons.

One other point, is that JWs came a lot later, so they are rather irrelevant when in dialogue concerning this great Saint. Or rather, this Saint doesn’t fit with the defense of arguing it out with JWs.

An example below.

See NPNF-04 the Epistle of the Manichaeus called Fundamental, chapter 3 :

“… I must be as patient towards you as my associates were with me, when I went madly and blindly astray in your beliefs.”

He did not practice mind-washing techniques when searching.

“Let neither of us assert that he has found the truth; let us seek it as if it were unknown to us both”

This is in relation to people searching, not for a sect, that goes around trying to manipulate people with their brain-washing antics.

You are misrepresenting the subject of charity, with being reckless.