Question for the Sedevacantist: stay on topic!!

[cam100]

cam100;3356122:

Do you believe that the Church, in her essential structure and teachings, will last until the end of time?

Yes

Matthew 28:20 “Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.”

The structure may be slightly different, we may be without a pope or visible hierarchy from now until the end.

Although gaps occur between popes, the Church is provided with the means of re-filling that popsition. Thus a gap in the papacy, in and of itself, would not end the Church’s visible structure. However, a loss of the hierarchy (ie, the bishops) would mean a terminal break in the apostolic succession, which is one of the four marks of the Church. A Church without apostolic succession is no longer the Catholic Church. In addition, the Church is a visible structure, so her hierarchy must be visible as well.

 

[TNT]

Thanks Cath but i dont want mr TNT to get off the subject–I want him to answer–how is the next Pope going to be elected??? who is doing the electing? just answer who and how TNT------STICK TO THE SUBJECT----

OK,
What does the past post mean to you?

Now with that said, there will probably be no Pope forthcoming (and implied by the CCC).
That’s not infallible, just statistically probable.

 

[TNT]

… and I’ll add: Who determined the chair is empty?

Im’ blamin S. Paul and his cohorts!

GALA 1: 6-11:

6 I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel. 7 Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. 9 As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? If I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. 11 For I give you to understand, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.

Now I know that S. Paul et al preached interfaith Prayer & Modern Ecumenism and probably Universal Salvation, and Salvation in anti-christ religions, and gave them his Blessings, so not to worry.

[See Pope John Paul II’s Theological Journey to the Prayer Meeting Of Religions In Assisi Vol I-III, Fr Johannes Dorman]

 

[TNT]

However, a loss of the hierarchy (ie, the bishops) would mean a terminal break in the apostolic succession, which is one of the four marks of the Church. A Church without apostolic succession is no longer the Catholic Church. In addition, the Church is a visible structure, so her hierarchy must be visible as well.

This is the REAL point. Good for you!

Now, does the SSPX, SSPV, and maybe a few others (Roman Rite), have Apostolic Succession preserved??
After all, wasn’t that the whole point of Bp Lafebvre’s Consecrating 4 bishops?

Also, does the Eastern Orthodox Church have Apostolic Succession preserved??

In other words, is there plenty of Apostolic Succession around the world with no real end in sight??

 

[stmaria]

=TNT;3351875]Your own Catechism tells you what will happen to the Church during the end times.
The only position on which we may differ is WHEN that time will be. The Catechism gives no help on that other than when such a condition begins to develop would become evident. But since it is a “SUPREME deception” [CCC] wouldn’t it be reasonable to realize that most will NOT recognize it? Which of course may include you and yours. Otherwise SUPREME" has no practical meaning.

Is this the Catechism paragraph you are talking about? What do you believe it means?
**The Church’s ultimate trial **
675. Before Christ’s second coming the Church **must pass **through a final trial that will **shake the faith **of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576
574 Cf. Lk 18:8; Mt 24:12.
575 Cf. Lk 21:12; Jn 15:19-20.
576 Cf. 2 Thess 2:4-12; 1 Thess 5:2-3; 2 Jn 7; 1 Jn 2:18,22

What is this," pseudo-messianism" by which man glorifies himself in place of God? Isn’t the anti-Christ a person?

 

[TNT]

The answer we have all been waiting for.

“I announce to you a great joy. We have a pope! The Most Reverend Father Lucian Pulvermacher, O.F.M., Cap., priest of the Holy Catholic Church, born April 20, 1918 and ordained on June 5, 1946, who takes the name Pius XIII.”

Ri-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-ght !

Just as there are folks in the VatII Church going out and ordaining Sodomites embezzlers & even Priestesses, so as well, there are fringes in the Traditional Church.
Neither proves anything whatsoever.
Well, until you can get a “Lucian Pulvermacher” follower to post here that is. As of now I can’t even remember one.
In fact the only ones to have ever posted this type of “Lucian Pulvermacher” promo have been VatII church adherents.
Interesting.

 

[cam100]

This is the REAL point. Good for you!

Now, does the SSPX, SSPV, and maybe a few others (Roman Rite), have Apostolic Succession preserved??
After all, wasn’t that the whole point of Bp Lafebvre’s Consecrating 4 bishops?

Also, does the Eastern Orthodox Church have Apostolic Succession preserved??

In other words, is there plenty of Apostolic Succession around the world with no real end in sight??

Certainly. I was trying figure out if Jim28 was referring to a hypothesis that some sedevacantists hold – that we are in, or could later be in, a state in which the hierarchy has disappeared and we just have to wait for Christ to end the world or miraculously “jump-start” the Church again. My point was that this idea isn’t compatible with the Church’s teachings on indefectibility.

 

[jim28]

Certainly. I was trying figure out if Jim28 was referring to a hypothesis that some sedevacantists hold – that we are in, or could later be in, a state in which the hierarchy has disappeared and we just have to wait for Christ to end the world or miraculously “jump-start” the Church again. My point was that this idea isn’t compatible with the Church’s teachings on indefectibility.

My position is that as long as we have one priest or bishop the hierarchy is visible. Numbers never make a difference in determining where the Church is.

 

[TNT]

Is this the Catechism paragraph you are talking about? What do you believe it means?
**The Church’s ultimate trial **
675. Before Christ’s second coming the Church **must pass **through a final trial that will **shake the faith **of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576
574 Cf. Lk 18:8; Mt 24:12.
575 Cf. Lk 21:12; Jn 15:19-20.
576 Cf. 2 Thess 2:4-12; 1 Thess 5:2-3; 2 Jn 7; 1 Jn 2:18,22

What is this," pseudo-messianism" by which man glorifies himself in place of God? Isn’t the anti-Christ a person?

Well, not exactly. The Scriptures only give it 4 references, some of which are in plural form:

John 2:
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that Antichrist cometh, even now there are become many Antichrists: whereby we know that it is the last hour.

1 John 2:
22 Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father, and the Son.

1 John 4:
3 And every spirit that dissolveth Jesus, is not of God: and this is Antichrist, of whom you have heard that he cometh, and he is now already in the world.

2 John 1:
7 For many seducers are gone out into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh: this is a seducer and an antichrist.

The CCC refers to a PRODUCT of the antichrist(s) as the Supreme religious Deception.

 

[TNT]

Certainly. I was trying figure out if Jim28
was referring to a hypothesis that some sedevacantists hold – that we are in, or could later be in, a state in which the hierarchy has disappeared and we just have to wait for Christ to end the world or miraculously “jump-start” the Church again. My point was that this idea isn’t compatible with the Church’s teachings on indefectibility.

Personally, I like your jumper cables idea. pretty cool analogy.

Because:
CCC:
**677 **The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection. The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by an historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven. God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.

 

[cam100]

My position is that as long as we have one priest or bishop the hierarchy is visible. Numbers never make a difference in determining where the Church is.

Actually, a priest or priests alone won’t work. Apostolic succession is maintained through the bishops. They alone have the fullness of the sacrament of holy orders. They are an essential part of the structure of the Church as founded by Christ. Remember that He created bishops, but priests were instituted later. So visible bishops are guaranteed until the end of time.

 

[TNT]

Certainly. I was trying figure out if Jim28 was referring to a hypothesis that some sedevacantists hold – that we are in, or could later be in, a state in which the hierarchy has disappeared and we just have to wait for Christ to end the world or miraculously “jump-start” the Church again. My point was that this idea isn’t compatible with the Church’s teachings on indefectibility.

Not to worry.
As long as Jim28 & I are around there will be NO defecting.
We got it covered.

 

[jim28]

Actually, a priest or priests alone won’t work. Apostolic succession is maintained through the bishops. They alone have the fullness of the sacrament of holy orders. They are an essential part of the structure of the Church as founded by Christ. Remember that He created bishops, but priests were instituted later. So visible bishops are guaranteed until the end of time.

Bishops are part of the ordinary jurisdictional hierarchy, but priests make up part of the ecclesiastical hierarchy because they have received the sacrament of Orders. That is the difference.

Pope Pius XII, Ad Sinarum gentum (# 13), Oct. 7, 1954: “Besides – as has also been divinely
established – the power of orders (through which the ecclesiastical hierarchy is composed of bishops, priests, and ministers) comes from receiving the Sacrament of
Holy Orders.”

Pius XII says that the Church hierarchy consists of “bishops, priests, and ministers”, deriving their power all from Holy Orders. Bishops may be higher in authority, but priests are part of the Hierarchy nonetheless.

Jesus never said, “o.k. Apostles, you are bishops” although I believe they were. So bishops are not “guaranteed until the end of time”, only visible hierarchy is, which includes priests.

 

[cam100]

Bishops are part of the ordinary jurisdictional hierarchy, but priests make up part of the ecclesiastical hierarchy because they have received the sacrament of Orders. That is the difference.

Pope Pius XII, Ad Sinarum gentum (# 13), Oct. 7, 1954: “Besides – as has also been divinely
established – the power of orders (through which the ecclesiastical hierarchy is composed of bishops, priests, and ministers) comes from receiving the Sacrament of
Holy Orders.”

Pius XII says that the Church hierarchy consists of “bishops, priests, and ministers”, deriving their power all from Holy Orders. Bishops may be higher in authority, but priests are part of the Hierarchy nonetheless.

Jesus never said, “o.k. Apostles, you are bishops” although I believe they were. So bishops are not “guaranteed until the end of time”, only visible hierarchy is, which includes priests.

Priests are not part of the magesterium, as they do not have the fullness of apostolic succession. Priests have no share in the infallibility of the Church, only bishops and the pope do. A church with no pope and no bishops cannot be the Catholic Church, as it no longer contains the essential structure and attributes of the Catholic Church.

 

[catharina]

You should pity them because they are on the way to hell. Simple logic tells you that. Unless you don’t care about their soul.

Sorry, boyo, I’m with Aquinas on this one.Aquinas says that the just will not pity the damned since in each case of damnation it is Almighty God Who has been offended.

 

[jim28]

Sorry, boyo, I’m with Aquinas on this one.Aquinas says that the just will not pity the damned since in each case of damnation it is Almighty God Who has been offended.

Sorry Girlo,
There is a big difference between the Damned (in hell) and the evil sinners of the earth.
You have pity on the sinners of the earth because they are on the road to hell. Not there already. It is very uncharitable to say that you don’t care about people who are very sinful and probably going there.
The just of heaven do not have pity on the damned of hell because the damned a) sent themselves there and b) God is offended and his decisions are infinitely just, which is a characteristic of God that the Just of Heaven will praise for eternity.

thanks

 

[jim28]

Priests are not part of the magesterium, as they do not have the fullness of apostolic succession. Priests have no share in the infallibility of the Church, only bishops and the pope do. A church with no pope and no bishops cannot be the Catholic Church, as it no longer contains the essential structure and attributes of the Catholic Church.

Never said they were part of the magisterium. They are part of the Ecclesiastical Hierarchy.
The Church would need a pope to make magisterial pronouncements as he is the only one who can make infallible pronouncements, the bishops do not share this privilege. Any time there is a papal interregnum there can be no magisterial pronouncements.
The Church only needs a Hierarchy to exist.

 

[twf]

jim28: So what happens when the last “true” priests die out with no bishops to ordain new ones? Do you really believe that Christ would allow His Church to continue without true bishops?
TNT and Jim: You seem to be implying that the “Vatican II Church” (as you call it) teaches universal salvation. What utter non-sense! Just because some individual heretics within the Church posit such a theory doesn’t mean the Magisterium does!

 

[catharina]

Sorry Girlo,
There is a big difference between the Damned (in hell) and the evil sinners of the earth.
You have pity on the sinners of the earth because they are on the road to hell. Not there already. It is very uncharitable to say that you don’t care about people who are very sinful and probably going there.
The just of heaven do not have pity on the damned of hell because the damned a) sent themselves there and b) God is offended and his decisions are infinitely just, which is a characteristic of God that the Just of Heaven will praise for eternity.

thanks

This is what you’d said: ~~You should pity them because they are on the way to hell. Simple logic tells you that. Unless you don’t care about their soul. ~~ My response to that remains the same. You put them on the elevator going down, not I.

 

[jim28]

jim28: So what happens when the last “true” priests die out with no bishops to ordain new ones? Do you really believe that Christ would allow His Church to continue without true bishops?

There is a difference between valid priests and licit priests. As long as the priests was ordained in the traditional rite of ordination by a valid Bishop, they are valid priests. Holy orders is one of the sacraments that confer a permanent character on the soul.
There are still many valid bishops (Thuc line etc…) alive for the ordaining of priests and other bishops. They have apostolic succession.

TNT and Jim: You seem to be implying that the “VaticanII Church” (as you call it) teaches universal salvation. What utter non-sense! Just because some individual heretics within the Church posit such a theory doesn’t mean the Magisterium does!

Here is some of the quotes of John Paul II. I’m sure you are going to say “they are taken out of context”, or something of the sort.

John Paul II, Redemptor Hominis (# 13), March 4, 1979:
“We are dealing with each man, for each one is included in the mystery of the Redemption and with each one Christ has united Himself forever through this mystery.”

John Paul II, Centesimus Annus (# 53):
“We are not dealing here with man in the ‘abstract,’ but with the real, ‘concrete,’ ‘historical’ man. We are dealing with each individual, since each one is included in the mystery of the Redemption and through this mystery Christ has united himself with each one forever.”

Christ did not unite himself to each man FOREVER. When someone rejects Christ unto death he is lost. If Christ did unite himself to EACH MAN forever, EACH MAN would have to go to heaven.

John Paul II, Homily, June 6, 1985:
“The Eucharist is the sacrament of the covenant of the Body and Blood of Christ, of the covenant which is eternal. This is the covenant which embraces all. ** This Blood reaches all and saves all.”**

John Paul II, Redemptoris Missio (# 4), Dec. 7, 1990:
“The Redemption event brings salvation to all, ‘for each one is included in the mystery of
the Redemption and with each one Christ has united himself forever through this mystery.’”

The Blood of Redemption is by all means sufficient to save all men. The Blood however, does not save all, like JPII wanted people to believe.

This one speaks for itself,of course unless it is taken out of context

John Paul II, General Audience, Dec. 27, 1978:
“Jesus is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity become a man; and therefore in Jesus, human nature and therefore the whole of humanity, is redeemed, saved, ennobled to the extent of participating in ‘divine life’ by means of Grace.”

Thanks