question for the TLM Faithful

[Dauphin]

If it is good enough for the Vicar of Christ, His bishops and His priests, then I would think it would be good enough for the faithful, too.

So, criticism of the Pauline Mass is forbidden because the Church has approved it? Once the Church approves something, the discussion ends?

Demanding that Catholics suspend all critical thought the moment the Church approves something is a very troubling position. You simply have to look at the history of the Church to see the sort of thing this can lead to.

 

[PJM]

I “mock” the Catholics here who think they are more holy than the Pope and that the latin Mass is the only Mass worthy of them. Is that insensitive? If the shoe fits, then wear it.

Friend, in all thigs charity:thumbsup:

"And the grreatest of these (faith, hope and love) is LOVE

 

[latinmasslover]

Gee, you got me on that one; guess I’ll only go to the latin Mass from now on.

There’s the smart-aleck remark I expected.

If it is good enough for the Vicar of Christ, His bishops and His priests, then I would think it would be good enough for the faithful, too.

Would you like a list of things that has been “good enough for the Vicar…” throughout the Church’s history?

One other thing, the original post was:

**To those of you who dislike the new rite **but still attend because, technically (assuming the 4 conditions are met) it’s valid: how do you get through it without losing your peace?

I addressed this thread to those who value reverence at the Holy Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. If you have nothing to contribute but self-righteous mockery, please do it elsewhere.

 

[Lujack]

The problem is that the Mass is more than technically valid. As an approved Mass of the Church, the OF cannot be inherently bad; it has been approved because it is pleasing to God. Liturgical abuses are bad, but those are a problem everywhere. Arguably, we hear more about them today because they are more noticeable with the Mass being in the vernacular.

I’m certain I’ll be told that those same abuses don’t appear in the EF today, but that isn’t a valid comparison. Those celebrating the EF today are making a special effort to do so, and are unlikely to deviate from it.

 

[latinmasslover]

This thread was also not started to debate the validity of the Novus Ordo.

 

[ericka1701]

i know what you mean. i think its because this mass stems around the people/community. people who go to church during the week are there because they really want to go. whereas a lot of people go to church on sunday as an obligation.

I get a great chance to practice being charitable at all times during the summer. Many people vacation around my area in the summer, usually families with older kids, as well as some retirees, but some do have their children, who do have some older kids, including teens themselves, that come a couple of weeks during their vacation. I don’t know if because they’re on vacation or what, but I do see alot of denim shorts, skirts of questionable lengths (and I’m being very charitable in that description), and very casual clothing. I know God is happy that we’re all there, but I really wonder about their wardrobes. Please note, I don’t purposely look at what people are wearing most of the times, but this is really hard to miss. I have felt self conscious at times in my skirt that’s down to my calfs and button down 1/2 sleeve shirt.

Luckily, though, it’s pretty cold here so anyone going to Mass has to bundle up or they’ll freeze to death. Also, my priest really likes to have the air-conditioner on (he called for one of the ushers to turn it on Christmass Eve Mass unless he wanted him to pass out… ). I know summer is coming soon, and I’m hoping for much cooler temperatures this year than last.

God Bless!
Ericka

 

[LilyM]

So, criticism of the Pauline Mass is forbidden because the Church has approved it? Once the Church approves something, the discussion ends?

Demanding that Catholics suspend all critical thought the moment the Church approves something is a very troubling position. You simply have to look at the history of the Church to see the sort of thing this can lead to.

‘Roma locuta est, causa finita est’ … so quite possibly yes.

As for me, I’m not an EF attendee, but I too sometimes get worked up about abuses and things that go wrong at Mass.

Then it occurred to me that a lot of this might actually be coming from the Devil. And as good as our intent may be in trying to have the ‘perfect’ Mass, we may in fact often simply be serving his purposes.

After all, what could help the enemy’s cause better than that people are not participating, as joyfully (or at least as fully) as possible, in the Mass because they’re too busy being annoyed at the (human) imperfections that creep into its celebration?

I just try to remember that Jesus is present, so long as the Mass is valid, and that He loves each and every one of those people there, even the annoying ones and those who mangle and abuse the Mass, with greater tenderness than I could ever be capable of.

And that He loves me too, and wants me to participate on as great a level as I can in the Holy Sacrifice alongside Him, regardless of the circumstances, and that I am cheating myself and Him by not doing so.

 

[eelpis]

I focus on the spiritual reality of the Holy Sacrifice of Calvary that is occurring, I also focus on the Living Christ in Holy Communion.

I try to neglect the externals somewhat in order not to vex myself because of the female lectors and the extraordinary ministers of holy communion.

You have to believe that the OF is valid, you don’t have to like it nor do you have to believe it’s as good as the EF when it evidently is not.

 

[latinmasslover]

Then it occurred to me that a lot of this might actually be coming from the Devil. And as good as our intent may be in trying to have the ‘perfect’ Mass, we may in fact often simply be serving his purposes.

It occured to many that the devil inspired some in the Church the same way he inspired Luther and others when changing the Mass. A comparison is a bit scary.

It’s not about the perfect Mass, it’s about a Mass that focuses on God rather than the community. The devil says the Mass is a get together, that we need to pay attention to our brothers and sisters; however; the Church teaches that the Mass is about God and offering worship.

After all, what could help the enemy’s cause better than that people are not participating

Bishops who disobey, disobey, disobey until their abuses are given the OK, thus scandelizing the Church and shaking the Faith of God’s children?

After all, what could help the enemy’s cause better than that people are not participating, as joyfully (or at least as fully) as possible, in the Mass because they’re too busy being annoyed at the (human) imperfections that creep into its celebration?

The Pope should have thought about that before approving a Protestant-Pleasing Form. Not to mention, these abuses aren’t sneaking in, the Church in passed years has been more focused on being everyone’s friend and so has let up on the discipline. The Church needs to become a Mother again and turn the bishops over Her knee, in a manner of speaking.

 

[Jennifer_J]

It occured to many that the devil inspired some in the Church the same way he inspired Luther and others when changing the Mass. A comparison is a bit scary.

It’s not about the perfect Mass, it’s about a Mass that focuses on God rather than the community. The devil says the Mass is a get together, that we need to pay attention to our brothers and sisters; however; the Church teaches that the Mass is about God and offering worship.

Bishops who disobey, disobey, disobey until their abuses are given the OK, thus scandelizing the Church and shaking the Faith of God’s children?

The Pope should have thought about that before approving a Protestant-Pleasing Form. Not to mention, these abuses aren’t sneaking in, the Church in passed years has been more focused on being everyone’s friend and so has let up on the discipline. The Church needs to become a Mother again and turn the bishops over Her knee, in a manner of speaking.

Wow, just wow. THIS is the attitude that keeps me from EVER wanting to go to the Extraodrinary Form…EVER…

 

[latinmasslover]

Wow, just wow. THIS is the attitude that keeps me from EVER wanting to go to the Extraodrinary Form…EVER…

So what? People with THAT attitude - the people who focus on the *opinions *of others rather than the facts - are the ones that can’t handle reverence and will push for more abuses. Overlooking truth because of a personality clash is naive and shows, in this case, religious indifference (which the Church condemns, FYI).

 

[Lujack]

So what? People with THAT attitude - the people who focus on the *opinions *of others rather than the facts - are the ones that can’t handle reverence and will push for more abuses. Overlooking truth because of a personality clash is naive and shows, in this case, religious indifference (which the Church condemns, FYI).

It isn’t religious indifference to say that the OF Mass is not bad. It cannot be bad, because it is an approved Mass of the Church, and those cannot be bad or displeasing to God. What is displeasing to God is when they are said improperly, but like I said earlier, the Tridentine Mass had abuses when it was the OF, too.

 

[Jennifer_J]

So what? People with THAT attitude - the people who focus on the *opinions *of others rather than the facts - are the ones that can’t handle reverence and will push for more abuses. Overlooking truth because of a personality clash is naive and shows, in this case, religious indifference (which the Church condemns, FYI).

You know nothing about me! Religious indifference, indeed! I actually support the EF and the T/traditions of the Church. I don’t push for abuses . What I abhor is this attitude you and others like you have that only YOU know what is holy, what is proper and you ignore the fact that the POPE HIMSELF has not revoked the OF. The EF and the OF are to exist together. They are BOTH the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Abuses exist in both forms. So it’s not a personality clash at all, because I don’t know you either, however, I can read the arrogance and sheer dissaproval for anything you deem not holy enough in your posts. I know that I’m just a lowly OF attending Catholic and no match for your great holiness, but give me a break. One’s holiness is not determined by what form of the Mass you attend. People who do this turn me off from ever seeking out the EF, because, while I don’t fear the form, I fear the attitude of the super pious who attend…

 

[BayernAnhaenger]

After all, what could help the enemy’s cause better than that people are not participating, as joyfully (or at least as fully) as possible, in the Mass because they’re too busy being annoyed at the (human) imperfections that creep into its celebration?

Lily,
Human imperfections?

When one ignores the directives from Rome (changing words to make the prayers more inclusive), forbids any form of Latin in the liturgy (contrary to the documents of Vatican II), uses an army of EMHC’s every weekend (contrary to the “extraordinary” sense of the term), frowns upon the practice of receiving kneeling and on the tongue (the normative way, as on the hand is still indulted), and uses secular instruments like guitars, and clap-happy songs as opposed to the usage of the organ and Gregorian chant (again contrary to the documents of Vatican II), it is no longer a human imperfection.

An example, in my opinion, of human imperfection, would be the omission of the Creed by a priest one Sunday, or a mistake that occurs very infrequently.

When things persist and are done in such a way that defies the rubrics, it ceases to be imperfection.

 

[justinkolo]

Well, I’m not (yet) a TLM Faithful, but I may be able to be convinced! I attended one and am not opposed to attending another though maybe without trying to read along next time

One thing I noticed even as a kid: There’s something called the Entrance Antiphon that I have never heard used in any OF Mass I’ve been to. I guess substituting some other song is allowed, and is now standard procedure, but wouldn’t it be nice if we actually used ALL the parts of the Mass given to us by the Church once in a while?

 

[Joannm]

Lily,

An example, in my opinion, of human imperfection, would be the omission of the Creed by a priest one Sunday, or a mistake that occurs very infrequently.

When things persist and are done in such a way that defies the rubrics, it ceases to be imperfection.

Just so you know, there are valid and licit reasons for omitting the Creed at a Sunday mass when other rites take its place such as a Baptism or RCIA.

 

[BayernAnhaenger]

Well, I’m not (yet) a TLM Faithful, but I may be able to be convinced! I attended one and am not opposed to attending another though maybe without trying to read along next time

One thing I noticed even as a kid: There’s something called the Entrance Antiphon that I have never heard used in any OF Mass I’ve been to. I guess substituting some other song is allowed, and is now standard procedure, but wouldn’t it be nice if we actually used ALL the parts of the Mass given to us by the Church once in a while?

The TLM will, admittedly, take some time getting used to. I would personally recommend you go without a missal the first few times. That way, you get a sense for the flow. And then, after 4 Masses/a month, bring the missal.

Also, reviewing the Missal the night before Mass might help, too. Just to “refresh” yourself!

Happy TLM’ing!

 

[BayernAnhaenger]

Just so you know, there are valid and licit reasons for omitting the Creed at a Sunday mass when other rites take its place such as a Baptism or RCIA.

Right.

I had in mind the cases where the priest honestly forgot the omission, or a parishioner reminded him, and he face palm remembers then.

 

[ASD]

Wow, just wow. THIS is the attitude that keeps me from EVER wanting to go to the Extraodrinary Form…EVER…

Oh, come on. Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.

A plea for understanding, or an attempt to explain the palpable resentment of so many trads, me included, I guess:

In conversations with a Protestant friend of mine who simply cannot understand my obsess…, er, interest in TLM/EF I finally realized what the difference between the two of us is, at least in that regard: He’s never had something taken away from him the way the old Mass was taken away from Catholics.

What would be comparable? How about this: (1) Some authority to whom a Protestant feels obliged to defer declares that reading NIV in private is no longer allowed; (2) Furthermore, everywhere he goes thereafter he hears how ridiculous the old private NIV reading days were; what dopes those people are who remain attached to NIV reading, etc.

Well, it’s not a very good analogy. But, the idea is something like: We feel the same kind of loss and resentment that, e.g., Protestants would feel if their NIVs suddenly became banished objects of ridicule.

I need a violin playing emoticon here, right? :violin_for_pity:

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[nmoerbeek]

You know nothing about me! Religious indifference, indeed! I actually support the EF and the T/traditions of the Church. I don’t push for abuses . What I abhor is this attitude you and others like you have that only YOU know what is holy, what is proper and you ignore the fact that the POPE HIMSELF has not revoked the OF. The EF and the OF are to exist together. They are BOTH the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Abuses exist in both forms. So it’s not a personality clash at all, because I don’t know you either, however, I can read the arrogance and sheer dissaproval for anything you deem not holy enough in your posts. I know that I’m just a lowly OF attending Catholic and no match for your great holiness, but give me a break. One’s holiness is not determined by what form of the Mass you attend. People who do this turn me off from ever seeking out the EF, because, while I don’t fear the form, I fear the attitude of the super pious who attend…

Jennifer,

I believe you must shake the notion off that we are basing or statements upon what we consider holy; we are not. The general basis for opinion for Latin mass (or tradition), kneeling, head coverings etc is based upon the writings of Popes, Saints, and a strong desire to to be reverent before God.

The question of the OP was out of a desire to grow to love God more during the new form of the mass. Does that not vindicate the original poster if they are attending such a mass? Does it not take humility to acknowledge that a person needs help to feel reverent during the mass?

I will tell you that personally I feel great comfort in following men of virtuous strength not luke warm weenies. So when Latinmasslover makes the statement that holy mother of church should spank some bishops she is saying that liturgical abuses from ALL forms of mass should be stamped out. I think we could both agree on that.

Disapproval for things which are not holy is a good thing. Remember that Christ called the apostles James and John sons of thunder for being bold and zealous. Do you think that God would find such a defense of reverence to the Eucharist, the mass, the holy spirit misplaced?

I would also agree that ones holiness does not come from what mass they attend. However being told to just accept the mass as it is (if clearly we are distracted by things) does not assist us in any manner.

Also by condemning the attendees of the Latin mass for being super pious, arrogant, holier than thou or whatever has done neither us or you any good. Why do you feel the need to be defensive when all of us no that the NO mass is the regular mass that is said the most frequently.

So can you explain to us how we can be reverent or what parts of the NO mass make you feel blessed by the holy spirit and in the presence of God. I’m not asking for a comparison between the two masses, or an explanation for why it is valid. Tell us what makes you love or tell us the things that make you cringe and how you deal with them?