question for the TLM Faithful

[LilyM]

Lily,
Human imperfections?

When one ignores the directives from Rome (changing words to make the prayers more inclusive), forbids any form of Latin in the liturgy (contrary to the documents of Vatican II), uses an army of EMHC’s every weekend (contrary to the “extraordinary” sense of the term), frowns upon the practice of receiving kneeling and on the tongue (the normative way, as on the hand is still indulted), and uses secular instruments like guitars, and clap-happy songs as opposed to the usage of the organ and Gregorian chant (again contrary to the documents of Vatican II), it is no longer a human imperfection.

An example, in my opinion, of human imperfection, would be the omission of the Creed by a priest one Sunday, or a mistake that occurs very infrequently.

When things persist and are done in such a way that defies the rubrics, it ceases to be imperfection.

THe way I see it, where it goes beyond ‘human imperfection’ is where it more or less reaches the level of actual abuse. That is, tends toward an intentional (as opposed to mistaken or accidental) disregard of the specified rubrics of the Mass. And not merely what Rome puts forth as a wish and not a command.

If Rome is so all-fired convinced that communion on the tongue, or Gregorian chant, is the only way to go, they are certainly more than capable of making it the only way again, as the Pope did for those receiving Communion from him. Aren’t they soon to be reverting to the more traditional English translation, after all? It’s not like they can’t change what they see as being really bad.

Purposely changing wording such as the words of consecration, using a glass chalice, letting a layperson say the homily, that sort of thing - THAT clearly goes beyond a human imperfection, i’ll grant you.

As for music - there was a time when organs were seen as secular instruments and Church officialdom said THEY weren’t supposed to be used in Mass, there was a time when polyphonic music was seen as secular and similarly IT wasn’t supposed to be used at Mass. I don’t see anything wrong at all with something like acoustic guitar per se - the fault (if any) would lie in how it is used. I’m not saying this applies to every single instrument, of course.

‘happy clappy’? That’s a term I hear a lot around here. It is a incredibly vague and subjective, not to say utterly useless, label to put on music. I would have to hear pieces of actual music and see how the congregation actually behaves in response to them before I made a blanket condemnation.

By the way, where does ‘happy clappy’ come from? I’ve not heard any actual clapping along to music in a Mass since I was about six or seven years old, and in mitigation (not saying it completely excuses it) that was only in school Masses held almost exclusively for very very young children.

 

[latinmasslover]

You know nothing about me! Religious indifference, indeed! I actually support the EF and the T/traditions of the Church. I don’t push for abuses . What I abhor is this attitude you and others like you have that only YOU know what is holy, what is proper and you ignore the fact that the POPE HIMSELF has not revoked the OF. The EF and the OF are to exist together. They are BOTH the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Abuses exist in both forms. So it’s not a personality clash at all, because I don’t know you either, however, I can read the arrogance and sheer dissaproval for anything you deem not holy enough in your posts. I know that I’m just a lowly OF attending Catholic and no match for your great holiness, but give me a break. One’s holiness is not determined by what form of the Mass you attend. People who do this turn me off from ever seeking out the EF, because, while I don’t fear the form, I fear the attitude of the super pious who attend…

Grow up and quit acting so paranoid. You know, exaggerated humility is a form of pride deary. If you feel my conclusion was wrong, I hope you learned from this and will be a little more careful about how you express your attitude in the future. That being said, this post of yours just proves me right. When the “holier than thou” accusation gets thrown out it implies that the accuser is feeling guilty and knows that they’re not doing what they should, that they’re satisfied with…what…doing a certain minimum. I’m sure it doesn’t apply all the time, but…it certainly does some of the time. I started this thread as a pleading for help in getting through a Mass that has more liturgical abuse than references to Jesus Christ. I was *not *asking for reasons to avoid the Latin Mass or for an inconsiderate, self righteous opinion. I don’t believe/say that people who attend the NO aren’t holy, that’s an opinion you and others wish to believe about Catholics. The holiest person I know never attends the Latin Mass, though she can and it is her preference as far as reverence goes. The holiest and most Christ-like priest I know says the NO only and, might I add, LOVES John Paul II.

 

[porthos11]

Wow, just wow. THIS is the attitude that keeps me from EVER wanting to go to the Extraodrinary Form…EVER…

You may not agree with the attitude, and that’s fine. But don’t deprive yourself the opportunity to attend the Mass that has nourished countless saints and martyrs over the centuries.

 

[Jennifer_J]

I think I do owe a slight apology. I should avoid this sub forum because it does anger me so. I see such disdain for the only form of Mass I’ve ever known (I’m relatively young at 36 and a convert)… Are there abuses and do they bug me from time to time, sure. I offer up those abuses that bug me, and that I can’t do anything about; however, I am first in line to offer my $.02 to the proper people when I see an abuse I can change I can be outspoken and annoying when I want to be Those abuses that I’ve seen have been pretty minor and easily fixed. Choice of music (I used to be a music teacher at a Catholic school) makes me cringe sometimes, but some of that is personal preferences. The simple fact that I know that Jesus is present at the Mass is enough to get me back on track–well, that and having 6 children I have to coral. I suddenly don’t have time to dwell on something I think might be wrong

I’ll cease hijacking the thread and avoid this subforum again. I don’ t need the stress…

 

[Ghoti]

To Latinmasslover:

Going way back to your first post: you mention “assuming the 4 conditions are met…”

What are these 4 conditions, for those of us who do not know?

Thanks.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I think I do owe a slight apology. I should avoid this sub forum because it does anger me so. I see such disdain for the only form of Mass I’ve ever known (I’m relatively young at 36 and a convert)… Are there abuses and do they bug me from time to time, sure. I offer up those abuses that bug me, and that I can’t do anything about; however, I am first in line to offer my $.02 to the proper people when I see an abuse I can change I can be outspoken and annoying when I want to be Those abuses that I’ve seen have been pretty minor and easily fixed. Choice of music (I used to be a music teacher at a Catholic school) makes me cringe sometimes, but some of that is personal preferences. The simple fact that I know that Jesus is present at the Mass is enough to get me back on track–well, that and having 6 children I have to coral. I suddenly don’t have time to dwell on something I think might be wrong

I’ll cease hijacking the thread and avoid this subforum again. I don’ t need the stress…

Jennifer? May I be allowed to interject another viewpoint? I’m only 57. I grew up with the TLM. I was an altar boy. In May of 1968 as a high school junior, I sang in Latin in the choir for the senior’s graduation at my Catholic boy’s high school. There was no choir for my graduation, just four of my classmates on guitars singing Simon and Garfunkle.

Should I avoid my first seventeen years of life and what I experienced because it does not fit into your world view? Should I abrogate my “been there, done that” award? I’m not being a smart aleck. What you take as the “norm” is anything but for those of us who remember what HMC was like before 1967. Faithful Catholics in 1967 did not dissent against HMC. In all brutal honesty, had I known then what I know now in terms of how the NO was to be implemented, you better betcha I’d have raised my voice even as a teenager.

For the record, I haven’t attended a TLM since 1978. I’ve sung in a cathedral choir for twenty years and, yes, I’ve seen my share of abuses to the point where I refused to sing for any diocesan events. I am no zealot. I am simply one who remembers who remembers what HMC was before 1967.

The NO may be the only Mass you have ever known. I submit to you that I am not dead nor are many of my contemporaries. There are those of us who remember and were comfortable with the TLM because that was the Mass we grew up with. Please consider that.

 

[CradleCath]

Validity is a pretty low bar if you ask me. Soggy liver and onions might be a valid meal, but it’s hardly a glorious meal. Shouldn’t Holy Mass be glorious?

Nonetheless, I feel your pain. It seems so rude to offer up the anguishes of Lord’s Mass. Practice helps you tune it out over time! When you’re striking your breast at the correct times; when you’re saying “and with your spirit” under your breath; when you’re folding your hands like a Catholic while everyone else is glad-handing the Lord’s Prayer… just hope that you’re being a good influence on someone else in the pews. You never know who’s learning from you!

Sometimes it’s lonely being at Church, especially when you’re the only one tradding up the spaceship. Hang in there.

Indeed it is & I hate that “what’s wrong with Me” feeling when I realize that everyone else seems fine with the "No Communion on the Tongue"rule, the absence of the Roman Canon (I haven’t heard EP.#1 in years), the visiting between the pews before Mass, & the 6 EEM’s EVERY Sun.

 

[latinmasslover]

To Latinmasslover:

Going way back to your first post: you mention “assuming the 4 conditions are met…”

What are these 4 conditions, for those of us who do not know?

Thanks.

Sorry. Proper: person (validly ordained priest), words (this is My Body…this is my Blood), matter (wheat bread and grape wine), intention (personal belief is irrelevent, the priest has to have the intention of consecrating).

If any one of these is missing, the Consecration does not take place and so there is no Mass.

BTW, we’re to assume the priest has the proper intention unless he’s given reason for us to believe otherwise.

 

[Ghoti]

Thank you.

 

[weepixie71]

I get a great chance to practice being charitable at all times during the summer. Many people vacation around my area in the summer, usually families with older kids, as well as some retirees, but some do have their children, who do have some older kids, including teens themselves, that come a couple of weeks during their vacation. I don’t know if because they’re on vacation or what, but I do see alot of denim shorts, skirts of questionable lengths (and I’m being very charitable in that description), and very casual clothing. I know God is happy that we’re all there, but I really wonder about their wardrobes. Please note, I don’t purposely look at what people are wearing most of the times, but this is really hard to miss. I have felt self conscious at times in my skirt that’s down to my calfs and button down 1/2 sleeve shirt.

Luckily, though, it’s pretty cold here so anyone going to Mass has to bundle up or they’ll freeze to death. Also, my priest really likes to have the air-conditioner on (he called for one of the ushers to turn it on Christmass Eve Mass unless he wanted him to pass out… ). I know summer is coming soon, and I’m hoping for much cooler temperatures this year than last.

God Bless!
Ericka

the last time we went to a novus ordo mass, there was a girl who looked about 13 or 14. she was wearing a skirt so short that when she bent down to put down the kneeler during the HOLY HOLY HOLY, you could see she was wearing a thong. this was very embarrassing for my husband. after mass my husband told the parents of the girl what had happened and can you believe they thought it was funny???

 

[Ghoti]

the last time we went to a novus ordo mass, there was a girl who looked about 13 or 14. she was wearing a skirt so short that when she bent down to put down the kneeler during the HOLY HOLY HOLY, you could see she was wearing a thong. this was very embarrassing for my husband. after mass my husband told the parents of the girl what had happened and can you believe they thought it was funny???

There’s a show on called “Toddlers & Tiaras” about child beauty pageants, with toddlers tarted up and bumping and grinding. Yes, I can believe just about anything, sometimes.

 

[latinmasslover]

the last time we went to a novus ordo mass, there was a girl who looked about 13 or 14. she was wearing a skirt so short that when she bent down to put down the kneeler during the HOLY HOLY HOLY, you could see she was wearing a thong. this was very embarrassing for my husband. after mass my husband told the parents of the girl what had happened and can you believe they thought it was funny???

They probably won’t find it funny when she’s finally gang-raped. I’d hate to be her parents on Judgment Day.

 

[Lujack]

They probably won’t find it funny when she’s finally gang-raped. I’d hate to be her parents on Judgment Day.

Woah…that’s ridiculously offensive and over the top. That’s not acceptable, even in hyperbole.

Gang-raped? Seriously?

 

[nmoerbeek]

Woah…that’s ridiculously offensive and over the top. That’s not acceptable, even in hyperbole.

Gang-raped? Seriously?

What is not acceptable is dressing that way. What is ignorant is denying that dressing in certain manners will not invite the worst forms of attention to.

I believe Latinmasslover is making a reference to current events in Europe.

What she is making reference to is how Muslim men view women in Europe due to the way the dress they feel it justifies raping them.

See article

She was not saying the women SHOULD be, she is suggesting that dressing in such a manner could PROVOKE such a response from men.

But how dare latinmasslover show concern for a womens dignity more so than her parents right?