Question for the women here

[Caesar]

First let me apologize for asking what is probably a very dumb question. Its just that my romantic life ended several years ago when I began seriously seeking a vocation as a priest, and any relationships before that were not exactly serious considering my age at the time

Ok, today one of my (female) teachers, who happens to be very feminist, was ranting against what she considered to be “antiquated actions of male domination” in relationships, namely such things as the man picking up the bill for dinner, holding doors open, starting polite discussions, ect. ect.

Now, since this part of my life ended before I was really mature enough to know all the details of dating, I am confused. Such “antiquated actions of male domination” as these (and others I’m sure you can think of) I always considered to be normal and almost necessary (forgive me if I’m wrong, but one would assume that being polite and courteous in these situations should be quite natural). So, this isnt how it is anymore?

 

[LSK]

First I have to tell you I am absolutely shocked that any woman of learning would still consider all the things you relate as issues in today’s world! I have been out of college in a University setting since 1978. I heard this kind of drivel THEN but my gosh that was over thirty years ago! To think that anyone, in particular a woman of letters, would focus on such mundane, silliness.

Now, back to your question:

I can only share my thoughts as a woman on this topic. If I ask a gentleman out to coffee or to dinner I pick up the check. If I am asked out for coffee or to dinner I expect the gentleman who has asked me out to pick up the check.

A man who behaves with courtly manners is not considered an oppressor. A man who dismisses anything I say simply because I am a woman is an idiot. Either way I come out the winner.

I hope this helps and you are in my prayers!

 

[Catherine_W]

She probably thinks these things because of her extreme feminist views. I think most girls like it when men are polite to them, give them their seat, etc. At my university every semester in our school news paper their is always an article about a girl thinking men are belittling women by offering them seats on the bus. I personally think this way of thinking is the minority. I think most women find it nice when a man offers them their seat or opens the door. I find it nice in anyone holds the door open for me, if they are a man or a woman. You are just being polite to a fellow human being.

 

[LSK]

Catherine, I stand corrected…I would have thought this kind of antiquated thinking about what ‘belittle’ mean would have gone by the wayside…boy, am I naive…and I am so glad to read what you wrote: this kind of thinking is the minority. Let’s hope so!

 

[LittleRose]

Please ignore any “feminists” who say that it is degrading to women when men try to be nice to them.

 

[1ke]

If you happen to see this professor carrying a large bulky object or pile of papers, let the door slam shut on her as you walk out since that is how she wants it.

The rest of us females appreciate door opening, dinners out, and the types of courtesies you describe.

 

[Caesar]

Thank you for the responses. I was confused by this for a while there

 

[mariam1976]

i wish more men would do these kinds of things… holding the door open for a woman is a sign of respect and who does not want to be respected???



i love it when a guy says that he will pick up the tab and then asks me out again as that means that he did really enjoy being out with me… it does not have to be anything expensive… just the thought of it!!!

i hate these feminists… they have totally spoiled everything for us women as now everything we say is painted in those colors even when it might be the truth!!!

 

[BLB_Oregon]

So, this isnt how it is anymore?

The norms of behavior change from time to time, but previous mores were hardly something forced upon women by men as methods of domination. They were societal norms, and everyone in society had their own reasons for supporting them at the time. It is just that times change, that’s all.

For instance, if you read “Little House on the Prairie”, you’ll find that it was a matter of status for American-born women to not have to work in the fields. Field work was usually something that recently-immigrated women did as a matter of course (they knew what women from the agricultural classes did back home), but that women who had migrated from the eastern United States would normally do only in extremity. A man who saw to it that his wife or daughter was not asked to do manual labor in the sun was hardly trying to dominate her, but was rather trying to elevate her status.

If you stop and think about it, there aren’t many norms of behavior that would have gotten passed from one generation to the next if the mamas and grandmas weren’t on board with it.

As for the original question, I think behavior these days needs to go as if you were working in a town full of foreign diplomats. You offer to use your own manners, but preface with, “Would you mind if I…?” “Would you mind if I get the door for you?” “Would you allow me to pick up the tab, please?” “May I help you with your coat?” Presumably, you learned these things from your own mother, so if you are taken to task for even offering, you may honestly answer, “I want to show everyone respect in a way that makes them feel respected, but I always start with the methods my mother taught me. There is no woman that deserves more respect from me than she does, so that’s the least I can do for her.” And then do whatever that person tells you makes them feel both respected and comfortable in your presence.

What person, man or woman, could argue with reasoning like that?

PS You are also allowed what a friend of mine calls the “Minnesota Method”…put into use because nobody can accept anything unless you’ve insisted three times. Therefore, if you get a compliment for how nice you are and a weak refusal, instead of a flat refusal, you keep asking. (If it is a flat refusal from a relative, you overrule them and force your generosity on them, anyway.)

“May I pick up the tab, please?” (Taking the tab so that they can’t get to it, even if you don’t actually read it…if you offer to pay, by golly, you’re not going to come off with less than going halves.)
“Oh, you don’t need to do that.”
“Are you sure? It would be a pleasure.”
“No, really, you are too generous.”
“Oh, c’mon, I would love to do it. I’ve had a great time.”
“Well, if you insist. Thank you so much, you are very generous.”
According to my friend, there is some Minnesota statute, possibly something in the state Constitution, which decrees that nobody is allowed by law to let you buy them lunch without at least that much protest. I don’t know what happens if they fail, but probably the license plate for their car is repossessed.

As for the relatives…I have seen some near-brawls for the tab when a group of aunties went to lunch together. Somebody always wins, and gets to pay for it all.

 

[jlcasey]

Well I have a story to tell about this very topic. I grew up in New Zealand, very much the feminist culture. Men had no idea how to handle a lady and well I never knew better until I met my husband - an American. When he opened a door for me for the first time I actually got confused! I didn’t understand what he was doing and opened the next door along for myself! Then he was like ‘huh?’

Let me tell you something - I never feel more like a lady, and more importantly, like someone to be cherished and respected when my husband opens a door for me.

 

[OldAgeGuru]

Ok, I’m a girl who’s 26. I have lots of guy friends. I can tell you right now, that girls should ALWAYS offer to pick up their share of the bill.

Here’s why both my answer and my guy friends answer.

If it’s a first date and I thought it was going well… if he lets me pick up my share… ugh no second date. Means he’s cheap. (keep in mind, it’s not like I order the most expensive thing on the menu, nor are we at a ritzy restuarant. The bill is probably like 26 bucks)

My friends answer? If she doesn’t offer it means she’s kinda selfish.

If it’s a first date. I always let the guy open the car door for me. Usually he unlocks it from the outside, with the key in the door. I let him help me in, then I unlock his door from the outside. I let him do it to be kind, then I return the favor.

Only ONCE did I fail the test. And as soon as he unlocked his side and got in, I was like oh **** I didn’t unlock the door for you cause my purse spilled all over the floor. He laughed and said I got extra credit for remembering.

I’m still with him today. Now I don’t bother unlocking the door … or offering to pick up the tab. I do his laundry for free. I feel it’s a good trade.

It’s fine to be chivilous, but don’t date a girl who doesn’t offer to help or return a favor.

 

[jmcrae]

Caesar;

Of course men should do all those things - but women shouldn’t act entitled to them.
**
Some rules for women:**

The person carrying the least stuff opens the door. (If the woman’s hands are free, and the man is carrying several awkward packages - and especially if the packages are hers, the woman should open the door for him, and ensure that he has passed safely through it before following him, and allowing it to close behind her.)

If both the man and the woman’s hands are equally free, and the man does not open the door for the woman, the woman should open the door for herself, swing it wide enough for him to catch it as he follows behind her, and pass on through ahead of him without hesitating, while he catches it and comes behind her.

This rule also applies on the bus, with a slight variation - the pregnant and elderly women have first dibs on the seats. If you are healthy and young, then even if you are a woman, you should give up your seat to an elderly or pregnant woman. Frail gentlemen come second, and people carrying heavy packages are third. Those who are relatively unencumbered, relatively young, and healthy, regardless of sex, should expect to stand whenever they take the bus, unless they only travel at times when everyone else on the bus is also young, healthy, and unencumbered.

If the man opens the passenger door of the car for you, then get in gracefully, and reach across to unlock (but not open) the driver’s side door for him.

Men should continue to behave as their mothers have taught them to behave - and women should not make an issue out of it, either way.

PS: When out on a date, even during the Neanderthal era when I was growing up, nice girls carried enough money to pay for their share of the dinner and the movie, and enough for a taxi to get home - just in case.

 

[LittleRose]

Caesar;

Of course men should do all those things - but women shouldn’t act entitled to them.
**
Some rules for women:**

The person carrying the least stuff opens the door. (If the woman’s hands are free, and the man is carrying several awkward packages - and especially if the packages are hers, the woman should open the door for him, and ensure that he has passed safely through it before following him, and allowing it to close behind her.)

If both the man and the woman’s hands are equally free, and the man does not open the door for the woman, the woman should open the door for herself, swing it wide enough for him to catch it as he follows behind her, and pass on through ahead of him without hesitating, while he catches it and comes behind her.

This rule also applies on the bus, with a slight variation - the pregnant and elderly women have first dibs on the seats. If you are healthy and young, then even if you are a woman, you should give up your seat to an elderly or pregnant woman. Frail gentlemen come second, and people carrying heavy packages are third. Those who are relatively unencumbered, relatively young, and healthy, regardless of sex, should expect to stand whenever they take the bus, unless they only travel at times when everyone else on the bus is also young, healthy, and unencumbered.

If the man opens the passenger door of the car for you, then get in gracefully, and reach across to unlock (but not open) the driver’s side door for him.

Men should continue to behave as their mothers have taught them to behave - and women should not make an issue out of it, either way.

Absolutely! Common courtesy is always the best policy.

PS: When out on a date, even during the Neanderthal era when I was growing up, nice girls carried enough money to pay for their share of the dinner and the movie, and enough for a taxi to get home - just in case.

Yes, always wise, especially if your date is the kind who exptects you to treat him to dessert.

 

[puzzleannie]

Ok, today one of my (female) teachers, who happens to be very feminist, was ranting against what she considered to be “antiquated actions of male domination” in relationships, namely such things as the man picking up the bill for dinner, holding doors open, starting polite discussions, ect. ect.

she must be someone of my generation who has been stuck in a time warp. that rant has been antiquated since the 70s.

 

[Island_Oak]

Ok, today one of my (female) teachers, who happens to be very feminist, was ranting against what she considered to be “antiquated actions of male domination” in relationships, namely such things as the man picking up the bill for dinner, holding doors open, starting polite discussions, ect. ect…

This may not be the most charitable answer, but I would hope anyone possessing and promoting these delusional attitudes is at least a lesbian who will not be reproducing and raising sons to whom she would be passing on this venom.

 

[cecilia97]

First let me apologize for asking what is probably a very dumb question. Its just that my romantic life ended several years ago when I began seriously seeking a vocation as a priest, and any relationships before that were not exactly serious considering my age at the time

Ok, today one of my (female) teachers, who happens to be very feminist, was ranting against what she considered to be “antiquated actions of male domination” in relationships, namely such things as the man picking up the bill for dinner, holding doors open, starting polite discussions, ect. ect.

Now, since this part of my life ended before I was really mature enough to know all the details of dating, I am confused. Such “antiquated actions of male domination” as these (and others I’m sure you can think of) I always considered to be normal and almost necessary (forgive me if I’m wrong, but one would assume that being polite and courteous in these situations should be quite natural). So, this isnt how it is anymore?

I’m not terribly traditional but those things are just what I call being a gentleman and I would not date a guy who didn’t do them.

Honestly, to hear an educated career woman say things like that makes me wonder why her self esteem is so LOW that she feels threatened by a guy doing nice little chivalrous things for her.

For benchmarking purposes, I’m Texas big city born and raised and 30 years old with a college education. I had a succesful career in a technical field and now I run a tiny business and stay FAR away from cubicles.

 

[sing]

I don’t want to be treated differently because I’m female. I want to be treated politely because I’m a person. I don’t need someone to open a door for me, or pay for things for me, and I open doors for anyone, and offer to pay for other people’s things if I have money. If I’m dating someone, I want us to split the amount of money that is spent. If it’s a long term relationship, then I can pay one time, the guy can pay other times, it’s not a big deal.

The whole idea of men paying for dates, opening doors, etc, came from the outdated idea of courting as a guy trying to show himself as a good provider and someone who would take care of the girl. But now, I don’t need someone to provide for me. I am not a little girl, I have my own intelligence and abilities, and I’m not looking for a second father, I am looking for a partner. So, I think the chivalry idea is nice, but it’s outdated. Of course, there are women who are still looking for providers. But I have already found my partner

 

[Lourdes_1]

My husband opens the door for me almost everytime the opportunity arises and I love it. He’s sweet and considerate. He does nice things for me and I do nice things for him. What’s the matter with that??

 

[lotusblossom]

I’d say any woman that you’d even consider dating would probably NOT have this attitude . Women who are not “feminazis” do not see this as male domination, but gentlemanly behavior! I remember in my early dating life, and even with my husband before we were married, paying for dates occassionally, but that was because at the time, I had the money and he didn’t. It was more a mutual thing and we felt comfortable enough (heck, we got engaged after 3.5 months of official dating!) to talk finances and work out dates that we could afford. But that’s kind of a tangent.

I’ve heard of women who become insulted when a man holds open a door for her, but even working in the heart of Chicago, the men I come across go out of their way to hold open doors for me and let me off the elevator first. It’s common courtesy to most. And those poor women who hate it, should they ever become pregnant and bloated and can’t bend, lift, or do pretty much anything…I think they’ll appreciate it then!

 

[shirleytowers]

Whoever invites the other one pays. The inviter pays. Period.

Opening the door, etc., is FINE.

Your teacher is crazy. A few ultrafeminist nutters take her stand, but most people ignore them.