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Ultima_Ratio
Guest
My thoughts exactly.
Question from a confused pagan on the Anti-Catholic Catholics
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cyberwolf001
Guest
You may and I am.
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Lamafacaja
Guest
Ah, so.
And so it’s interesting to me that you, a Druid finds the subject at hand to be interesting… Is it just idle curiosity on your part, perhaps a general interest in religions in general, or is it because of your Catholic friends and family that you want to know?
I’m just sort of wondering the why of it…
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LittleSoldier
Guest
Dear Cyberwolf,
I’m not going to quote your responses to my (and others) posts, as it is getting too long and I get dizzy. Sorry.
I am an ex-ex-Catholic. I was raised before Vatican 2 and as a small child I was very confused by the Mass, even though I went to Catholic School and had Catholic parents. When I was little, medals, scapulars, etc. were very common and you may be correct in that there is a turn away from these items, although like I’ve stated before, I haven’t seen it.
But, as you have, and I don’t think you are a liar, it should be addressed.
I wonder why you left the Church. I wonder if the reasons were the same that made me feel unloved, unwanted, confused, poorly educated about my supposed faith, etc. I know that I did not like the Church. When the Latin Mass (well, actually it was Latin with a tad of Greek) was changed to the Mass in the prevailing language of whatever country one lived in, it was done for a reason. It was to make the Mass more accessible (I’m sorry - that is a bad word, but I can’t think of the one I want right now) to the people who were attending.
I’m sure you know that old poem:
Latin is a language
as dead as it can be,
first it killed the Romans,
and now it’s killing me.
As someone who is just starting out on learning the Latin language, I can guarantee that I am feeling like it is trying to kill me. It is difficult for me to learn.
Please correct me if I am wrong, because I don’t understand why anyone would want to be a Druid, maybe as you don’t understand why anyone would want to be a Catholic who attends a parish church with the Mass in English.
The Mass isn’t a concert to show the beauty of the Gregorian Chant, nor is it a chance for those who love Latin (which is an absolutely beautiful language IMHO) to join together and speak Latin. It’s the celebration of the Lord’s Supper and a chance for real communion and understanding to occur. If it’s in Latin, the only people who will understand it are those who speak (or read) Latin, or if a translation is provided (which has been done, or so I have heard).
That being said, I do miss the Gregorian Chant. I do miss the Latin Mass because I do think the language is beautiful. But I don’t miss the confusion. I’m not able to go to Mass very often because of a disability, but when I go I actually cry. Why? Because I feel so blessed to be able to be there in a Church with other Catholics and I am able to partake of the Holy Eucharist. Jesus loves me so much, whether I speak Latin or English, that He allows Himself to be consumed by me. Little me, who is less than an ant. He allows Himself to be part of me, who is part of Him. His Love and Grace enter me, and in return I offer myself to Him. It’s a covenant between God and myself.
That is the beauty of Mass and that is why I will never leave the Church again. I know that in a prior post I mentioned my experience of two “Catholics” praying that I would be possessed, while in a Catholic Church. I didn’t remember that experience until I was actually writing that post. Something like that is so blasphemous that I can’t believe I didn’t report it. It certainly didn’t help a young teenager make an educated decision about whether to stay in the Church.
We just had a new church built. It contains no stained glass. I love stained glass and I complained to the priest. I asked for just one window. He told me it had been decided that the forest outside would be the beauty of this church. I didn’t like that one bit, but when I started attending Mass there, it made absolutely no difference at all. That’s because the Mass is the Mass is the Mass.
I know I’ve gone a bit off-topic here and I apologize for that. I just want to make it clear that all those things you speak of, including the Rosary, are not necessary - they are gifts that people do not accept. The Mass is what is important. I don’t think there is anything wrong with a Latin Mass. I would love to attend one on the condition that a translation be provided. Once I learn Latin I would like to attend Latin Masses regularly. And I would also like to see a return to the use of some of the rituals, such as the Benediction, and the use of Gregorian Chant. In my parish part of the Mass is now in Latin, so maybe some of that is coming back.
I think I understand your complaint more clearly now - you miss the beauty of the rituals and wonder why they are no longer a part of the Mass. I agree with you - something has been lost, but it isn’t a vital part of the Mass. It’s the way the Mass was presented, but it wasn’t the Mass. It should have been changed from Latin to the prevailing language. It’s not meant to be mysterious language-wise. It’s supposed to be understood.
I’m not going to quote your responses to my (and others) posts, as it is getting too long and I get dizzy. Sorry.
I am an ex-ex-Catholic. I was raised before Vatican 2 and as a small child I was very confused by the Mass, even though I went to Catholic School and had Catholic parents. When I was little, medals, scapulars, etc. were very common and you may be correct in that there is a turn away from these items, although like I’ve stated before, I haven’t seen it.
But, as you have, and I don’t think you are a liar, it should be addressed.
I wonder why you left the Church. I wonder if the reasons were the same that made me feel unloved, unwanted, confused, poorly educated about my supposed faith, etc. I know that I did not like the Church. When the Latin Mass (well, actually it was Latin with a tad of Greek) was changed to the Mass in the prevailing language of whatever country one lived in, it was done for a reason. It was to make the Mass more accessible (I’m sorry - that is a bad word, but I can’t think of the one I want right now) to the people who were attending.
I’m sure you know that old poem:
Latin is a language
as dead as it can be,
first it killed the Romans,
and now it’s killing me.
As someone who is just starting out on learning the Latin language, I can guarantee that I am feeling like it is trying to kill me. It is difficult for me to learn.
Please correct me if I am wrong, because I don’t understand why anyone would want to be a Druid, maybe as you don’t understand why anyone would want to be a Catholic who attends a parish church with the Mass in English.
The Mass isn’t a concert to show the beauty of the Gregorian Chant, nor is it a chance for those who love Latin (which is an absolutely beautiful language IMHO) to join together and speak Latin. It’s the celebration of the Lord’s Supper and a chance for real communion and understanding to occur. If it’s in Latin, the only people who will understand it are those who speak (or read) Latin, or if a translation is provided (which has been done, or so I have heard).
That being said, I do miss the Gregorian Chant. I do miss the Latin Mass because I do think the language is beautiful. But I don’t miss the confusion. I’m not able to go to Mass very often because of a disability, but when I go I actually cry. Why? Because I feel so blessed to be able to be there in a Church with other Catholics and I am able to partake of the Holy Eucharist. Jesus loves me so much, whether I speak Latin or English, that He allows Himself to be consumed by me. Little me, who is less than an ant. He allows Himself to be part of me, who is part of Him. His Love and Grace enter me, and in return I offer myself to Him. It’s a covenant between God and myself.
That is the beauty of Mass and that is why I will never leave the Church again. I know that in a prior post I mentioned my experience of two “Catholics” praying that I would be possessed, while in a Catholic Church. I didn’t remember that experience until I was actually writing that post. Something like that is so blasphemous that I can’t believe I didn’t report it. It certainly didn’t help a young teenager make an educated decision about whether to stay in the Church.
We just had a new church built. It contains no stained glass. I love stained glass and I complained to the priest. I asked for just one window. He told me it had been decided that the forest outside would be the beauty of this church. I didn’t like that one bit, but when I started attending Mass there, it made absolutely no difference at all. That’s because the Mass is the Mass is the Mass.
I know I’ve gone a bit off-topic here and I apologize for that. I just want to make it clear that all those things you speak of, including the Rosary, are not necessary - they are gifts that people do not accept. The Mass is what is important. I don’t think there is anything wrong with a Latin Mass. I would love to attend one on the condition that a translation be provided. Once I learn Latin I would like to attend Latin Masses regularly. And I would also like to see a return to the use of some of the rituals, such as the Benediction, and the use of Gregorian Chant. In my parish part of the Mass is now in Latin, so maybe some of that is coming back.
I think I understand your complaint more clearly now - you miss the beauty of the rituals and wonder why they are no longer a part of the Mass. I agree with you - something has been lost, but it isn’t a vital part of the Mass. It’s the way the Mass was presented, but it wasn’t the Mass. It should have been changed from Latin to the prevailing language. It’s not meant to be mysterious language-wise. It’s supposed to be understood.
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jfoges
Guest
Is this a joke? Maybe as a pagan you should think about abandoning your ways and embracing the gospel.Simple question.
Why do so many Catholics want to get rid of the Rosary, the chaplets, scapulars, formula prayers (glory be, hail mary, litanies ect.), saint’s devotions, medals and so forth.
There is also the hate on for the old TLM Mass ( as a Druid I love it!) and latin in general…
But these kind of Catholics seem to love the speaking in tounges and rolling on the floor charismatic deal, which reminds me a lot fo voudou and trust me I’ve seen voudou it is the exact same thing, okay we can argue source but if you get a chance youtube them side by side.
So why are some Catholics out to make there own church just another protestant denomination?
I just don’t get it!
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DihydrogenOxide
Guest
They are called CNOs, catholics in name only. I don’t know why they don’t just leave, either. They don’t want to follow the teachings of our religion, but they want to still be considered a catholic. They also want to persuade others to their anti-catholic views. It’s evil seeping in. They try to divide us.Why do so many Catholics want to get rid of the Rosary, the chaplets, scapulars, formula prayers (glory be, hail mary, litanies ect.), saint’s devotions, medals and so forth.
There is also the hate on for the old TLM Mass ( as a Druid I love it!
But these kind of Catholics seem to love the speaking in tounges and rolling on the floor charismatic deal, which reminds me a lot fo voudou and trust me I’ve seen voudou it is the exact same thing, okay we can argue source but if you get a chance youtube them side by side.
So why are some Catholics out to make there own church just another protestant denomination?
I just don’t get it!
I love all the stuff you mentioned, the devotions, latin Mass, etc. Many catholics love it, but like I always say, you’re either catholic or you’re not. You either believe the precepts of the Church, or you do not. That is plain and simple black and white. There is no gray area there.
You know, your question makes me think your beliefs are more closely related to catholics than many so-called catholics are. You make a perfectly good point.
The “new age” charismatic groups are not catholic. They are more worried about self love than anything.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
Wow - your signature is so cool. Just wanted you to know!
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LittleSoldier
Guest
I would like to ask you some questions, if you don’t mind.Simple question.
Why do so many Catholics want to get rid of the Rosary, the chaplets, scapulars, formula prayers (glory be, hail mary, litanies ect.), saint’s devotions, medals and so forth.
There is also the hate on for the old TLM Mass ( as a Druid I love it!
But these kind of Catholics seem to love the speaking in tounges and rolling on the floor charismatic deal, which reminds me a lot fo voudou and trust me I’ve seen voudou it is the exact same thing, okay we can argue source but if you get a chance youtube them side by side.
So why are some Catholics out to make there own church just another protestant denomination?
I just don’t get it!
Do you wear a scapular?
Do you wear a medal?
Do you wear a cross and/or a crucifix?
Do you pray the Rosary?
Do you pray using what you term “formula prayers?”
Do you pray the prayers of the Chaplet?
Do you attend Latin Masses?
Do you speak Latin?
Do you have a devotion to the saints, or any saint in particular?
If the Church required these things, would you return to the Church?
Did you leave the Church because you saw a movement away from these things?
Did you leave the Church because you became aware of people rolling on the floor and/or speaking in tongues?
I’m not asking these questions to be nosy or intrusive. I’m asking them because I am honestly confused about where you are coming from and would like to know more in order to further communication.
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Lormar
Guest
BrotherHRoff
My sentiments exactly.
For no one having a “personal relationship with Jesus” before the age of enlightenment, we sure do have a lot of pre-Vatican II saints.
My sentiments exactly.
For no one having a “personal relationship with Jesus” before the age of enlightenment, we sure do have a lot of pre-Vatican II saints.
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mmmcounts
Guest
You mean this one?
piercework.typepad.com/.a/6a00e54f11b8be883401156f7885ef970c-800wi
That’s Italian Baroque art. “St. Teresa in Ecstasy.” Bernini. You want to go see the physical sculpture, it’s at the Santa Maria Della Vittoria in Rome.
I think that’s the only cover that could be called “sexy,” although some of his books (ie., The Cardinal Sins) include more material pertaining to sex than your average Catholic novel. Greeley’s status as media darling also happens to be of greater magnitude than his popularity among the average Catholic. This does not, however, render him incapable of writing things that are of some value.
That said, it really bothers me when someone opens right up with the genetic fallacy as you have. That is one of my least favorite fallacies and I see if from Catholics far too often.
logicalfallacies.info/relevance/genetic/
If you can, please try to avoid that one.
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DihydrogenOxide
Guest
Oh, thank you very much! I’ve basically been taught catholicism in my youth through Mother. She’s an awesome catechist.
Gotta love Mother Angelica.As an aside, please pray for her. I hear they think she is on her last legs.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
She is in my prayers…Oh, thank you very much! I’ve basically been taught catholicism in my youth through Mother. She’s an awesome catechist.
As an aside, please pray for her. I hear they think she is on her last legs.
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cyberwolf001
Guest
Curiosity. From the outside it is like watching a religion rip itself apart.Ah, so.
And so it’s interesting to me that you, a Druid finds the subject at hand to be interesting… Is it just idle curiosity on your part, perhaps a general interest in religions in general, or is it because of your Catholic friends and family that you want to know?
I’m just sort of wondering the why of it…
You do understand my question is the out and out HATRED for it. I mean when the Pope tried to make it more accesible many of the Bishops freaked and did everything they could to shut it down again. As you can read right here in this form. An the TLM IS more than just the current Mass in Latin right?
As a Druid I am learning Irish, Welsh and Old English. At an insanely slow rate. So I share your pain.
Again the hatred for the TLM which is more than just the current Mass in Latin. Everyone has there own reasons, for me it was the Gods calling to me. Jesus threatened and bullied with constant visions of hell.
The Gods welcome, nurture and encourage.
I will repeat again and keep repeating because it seems most in this thread don’t get it. It is the HATRED for the TLM which is more than the current Mass in Latin that I don’t get.
I never understood the confusion argument. Just keep going every Sunday and Holy Day of Obligation. It will all become old hat fast. I’ve learned this in my freuqent Druid liturgy.
I will repeat again and keep repeating because it seems most in this thread don’t get it. It is the HATRED for the TLM which is more than the current Mass in Latin that I don’t get.
I’ve often had people pray Jesus would strip me of everyone and everything I love and render me sick, depressed and homeless. So that broken I’d come crawling to him… So I know where your coming from.
Once more it is the HATRED I don’t get.
Please, please, PLEASE stop reframing my questions. It is the getting rid of them I do not get. The taking it away as an option for everyone. Please answer the questions I asked, don’t alter it to a different question and answer that one.
I will repeat again and keep repeating because it seems most in this thread don’t get it. It is the HATRED for the TLM which is more than the current Mass in Latin that I don’t get.
CONTINUED
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cyberwolf001
Guest
No it is exactly what they say. Why hate the old mass. Why get rid of devotions like the Rosay. Get rid of as in make it so NO ONE can practice them. i.e. abolish them.
Sorry if I come across as rude, but I asked my RL Catholic friends and got the same treatment. Questions altered, questions reframed. Even after repeated clarification.
It’s like I hit a spot they where terrified to give a straight answer too. One of my Catholic friends even laughed and said by now I should know Catholics don’t believe in straight forward, clear, conciese (spelling?) honest answers.
An honestly, I am just tired and want some answers… Another thing that drove me to Paganism, at least my questions get a direct and straight forward answer. The questions I asked. Not alter versions of them.
I wondered when I’d get this response.
Makes sense. They’d rather not do the work of forming there own faith, so alter the one they have. Laziness pure and simple.
This is true, I even told the Catholic girl asking me for tarot readings that her Church in no uncertain terms forbid it. Even if for fun and amusement value and that if she is gonna do witchcraft she should just become a witch.
You gonna be a Catholic be a Catholic. Gonna do witchcraft be a witch. Just that simple.
Thanks we could use a few guys like you in Paganism. Things are coming to a head and the new agers aint to happy about the way things are going. I’d say by 2020 Paganism will no longer be “Whatever you want it to be.”
Praise the gods! :extrahappy:
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KC91
Guest
Exactly, remember when Jesus said ‘If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.’ The Church could make do without fake Catholics. Another anti-modernist clean up like that of St Pius X’s is needed
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cyberwolf001
Guest
Go ahead!
Do you wear a scapular?
I did
Do you wear a medal?
I did the Miraculous medal and St. Patrick Medal
Do you wear a cross and/or a crucifix?
I did between the medals
Do you pray the Rosary?
**I did. Once in Public while waiting on a Pizza. Found it a great way to pass the time. Got told off BIG TIME by my Catholic friends for not keeping the beads hidden in my pocket and instead resting them in my lap. I had a gentlemen ask me about them and cleared up alot of his issues with Catholicism.
They said I was being like the Pharaises, I just really didn’t care if anyone saw me or not. I just had twenty minutes and said, hey why not? Didn’t even think about other people looking at me. Never did it again after the lectures I caught… Still don’t get how it was so wrong…** :crying:
Do you pray using what you term “formula prayers?”
I did. A favorite of mine was an Our Father, Hail Mary and Glory Be for anyone that ticked me off.
Do you pray the prayers of the Chaplet?
I did. Divine Mercy and St. Michael. People thought the St. Michael was me bein prideful and wanting the Angelic Escort.
Do you attend Latin Masses?
I didn’t wanted to really badly. TLM not just N.O. in Latin.
Do you speak Latin?
I did, sorta was learning it bit by bit.
Do you have a devotion to the saints, or any saint in particular?
I did. St. Patrick and a good many others. I figured the more Saints as frends the better. I was accused of treating them like I had my former Gods.
If the Church required these things, would you return to the Church?
Nope
Did you leave the Church because you saw a movement away from these things?
NOPE. An it wasn’t over the treatment I got either. Trying to keep stories about it to a minimum so that this issue isn’t brought up.
Did you leave the Church because you became aware of people rolling on the floor and/or speaking in tongues?
NOPE
No problem, again apologies if i sounded rude above. Just really tired and wanting answers ya know?
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karoleck
Guest
The same old story The world,the flesh and the devil ! The same that driuds worship!!
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cyberwolf001
Guest
Let me add to my list. Why the many on this forum insist on bashing non-Catholics for asking questions?The same old story The world,the flesh and the devil ! The same that driuds worship!!
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LittleSoldier
Guest
Thank you for answering my questions. I don’t think you sounded rude in any of your posts - what I see is frustration that you haven’t been able to get your point across and I really do understand that frustration. You have used the words “HATE” and “HATRED” several times, which wasn’t clear to me in your OP. Now it is. I understand where you are coming from a little better and I’ll think on this awhile and then post again.
There is just one thing I’d like to comment on and that is your praying of the Rosary while out in public. It angers me to find out that you got lectured about this, like there is something wrong with it. What is the matter with people? Sheesh, I pray the Rosary out loud in my front yard and I haven’t gotten any strange looks yet, but to tell you the truth I don’t care. Because I am tired, too. And frustrated, not with you, but with people who think that if a person prays out loud in public they must be drunk, stoned, or crazy.
I’m really sorry that happened to you. I don’t know what else to say right now, but I’ll post again.
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livnlern
Guest
Good for you Soldier for praying the Rosary in public. I always get mine out and say it when I’m on an airplane. I don’t say it out loud, guess I’m not that brave but I keep it visible. To the OP, you sound like you were pretty devoted to your faith when you were Catholic. And of course you were disgusted by your friends’ reactions when praying the Rosary in public.
I don’t think anyone is trying to abolish saying the Rosary. JPII added new mysteries to it so it doesn’t seem like it’s frowned upon. But it’s kind of a private prayer for most people unless they’re saying it before mass. For me it’s easier to concentrate on the mysteries when I’m saying it by myself. A group prayer goes faster and is over with before you know it!
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