Question From a Protestant

[MilesXpisti]

Does not the Catholic church teach that the Holy Ghost can cleanse a soul without water? Why is physical H2O required to remove the sin from a non-material soul?

Because it’s not an either-or, it’s a both. Water and spirit working simultaneously. And the Church requires this because that’s the matter, the physical essence, the God chose for the Sacrament. Could he have chosen something, else? Sure. But he didn’t, even in the OT, when Naman was forced dip himself seven times in water to be healed. The external matter of the Sacrament is just as important as the operation of the Sacrament, because it is the means by which the understanding the transmission of the Sacrament is assured. The external is as important as the internal, and its the same with the faith of the believer, which requires works to be justified. We are not justified by merit of works to our salvation, for that is by faith. But it is works, the external expression, that justifies our faith unto salvation.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Without the sacrament of baptism, I would say that this would be the case, yes.

… Then Peter said, “Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. …
(Acts 10:46-48)

If what you say is true, then how can it be that St. Peter clearly says that these people had received the Holy Spirit prior to receiving the sacrament of baptism?

 

[jmcrae]

Does not the Catholic church teach that the Holy Ghost can cleanse a soul without water?

There is also baptism of desire, and baptism of blood, but these presuppose that normal baptism is not available.

Why is physical H2O required to remove the sin from a non-material soul?

Because the soul is not “non-material.” It is the life of the body.

 

[MilesXpisti]

… Then Peter said, “Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. …
(Acts 10:46-48)

If what you say is true, then how can it be that St. Peter clearly says that these people had received the Holy Spirit prior to receiving the sacrament of baptism?

I would argue that the reception is not of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but the encouragement, or “conviction” to use the Protestant term, to receive and believe the Gospel of Christ.

 

[jmcrae]

… Then Peter said, “Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. …
(Acts 10:46-48)

If what you say is true, then how can it be that St. Peter clearly says that these people had received the Holy Spirit prior to receiving the sacrament of baptism?

I’ve been seeing this coming for an hour, now.

For the third time:

For the purpose of opening the Church to the Gentiles and thus making it Catholic, the Holy Spirit came to certain Gentiles and then revealed them to Peter and the others, so that they could then be baptized. But this was in order that the Church would begin to include the Gentiles - if it had not happened in this way, then the Church would still be a tiny offshoot sect of Judaism.

God Himself can work outside of His own Sacraments, but we the Church must obey what He has commanded us to do (that is, use the Sacraments) and assume that He does not ordinarily work outside of them, any more than He ordinarily works outside of the laws of nature to create miracles.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

There is also baptism of desire, and baptism of blood, but these presuppose that normal baptism is not available.

Because the soul is not “non-material.” It is the life of the body.

By non-material i mean that which has no atoms. In contrast to your soul, water has three for each molecule (one hydrogen and two oxygen).

 

[MilesXpisti]

By non-material i mean that which has no atoms. In contrast to your soul, water has three for each molecule (one hydrogen and two oxygen).

We cannot say for certain that the soul is immaterial. That the soul is that which animates the physical body could imply that there is a physical symbiosis between the flesh and spirit that is not understood by modern science, any more than chemists in the 19th century could explain the loss in weight when a piece of wood was burned.

 

[jmcrae]

By non-material i mean that which has no atoms. In contrast to your soul, water has three for each molecule (one hydrogen and two oxygen).

My soul needs many material things - food, water, warmth, and shelter - as well as many non-material things - hope, love, and friendship - to keep it attached to my physical body.

It therefore makes perfect sense that the Holy Spirit comes to us through both material and non-material means working together (water and words, for example) - and that’s exactly how the Sacraments work.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I’ve been seeing this coming for an hour, now. …

My apologies for offending you JM. I did not bring up the subject of baptism. The question was raised by another who asked me whether i thought it was the act that saves me. I have my doubts so i was hoping someone would have answers. I was not looking for some kind of debate. I came to find answers. I’ll stop asking questions, now.

 

[MilesXpisti]

My apologies for offending you JM. I did not bring up the subject of baptism. The question was raised by another who asked me whether i thought it was the act that saves me. I have my doubts so i was hoping someone would have answers. I was not looking for some kind of debate. I came to find answers. I’ll stop asking questions, now.

There are no bad questions from someone looking for answers, and not to speak for jmcrae, but that verse is one often use as a supposed refutation of the necessity for baptismal regeneration and it does tend to wear on one’s patience.

 

[jmcrae]

My apologies for offending you JM. I did not bring up the subject of baptism. The question was raised by another who asked me whether i thought it was the act that saves me. I have my doubts so i was hoping someone would have answers. I was not looking for some kind of debate. I came to find answers. I’ll stop asking questions, now.

The fact that you simply ignored my first two responses and kept going as though I hadn’t answered this concern is what upset me.

Please keep asking your questions. But please, pay attention to the answers, too.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

There are no bad questions from someone looking for answers, and not to speak for jmcrae, but that verse is one often use as a supposed refutation of the necessity for baptismal regeneration and it does tend to wear on one’s patience.

I gather, then, that you would assure me that it is not wrong for me to ask these tough questions? For me, i cannot believe something until i know it is true. I suppose that makes me seem, well, annoying. I find that believing only what stands up to scrutiny actually increases my faith. The more truths stand up to questions, the more trust i have in them. Do you see what i mean?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

The fact that you simply ignored my first two responses and kept going as though I hadn’t answered this concern is what upset me.

Please keep asking your questions. But please, pay attention to the answers, too.

I would say missing your posts is more accurate than ignoring them. There were a volley of questions coming at me from many. Like the last kid left on a dodgeball team facing several left standing on the other side, it was hard to keep track of them all.

When i get the chance, i promise to read through the entire discussion thread once more to see what i missed. Thank you for investing your time in me. I do appreciate it.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Thanks everyone! On the whole, you have all been extremely patient and kind to me. I feel generally welcome here. Would it be OK with all of you if i come back again soon and ask more questions? I really want to fully understand the Roman Catholicism i left long ago to see if i made the right choice.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Thanks everyone! On the whole, you have all been extremely patient and kind to me. I feel generally welcome here. Would it be OK with all of you if i come back again soon and ask more questions? I really want to fully understand the Roman Catholicism i left long ago to see if i made the right choice.

By all means, start another thread with another question. We are here to talk.

 

[Jon_S]

Socrates,

Why did/do you think you would need to be a priest to be close to God?

Just curios.

 

[guanophore]

I added the emphasis to those passages you quoted to raise the question: Is it the water that saves us from hell or the (1) Repentance, (2) calling on the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, (3) pledging in good conscience to live our lives for our blessed Lord and Savior, and (4) receiving the Holy Ghost and eternal life as a gift from the Father though faith in Jesus Christ?

All of these are necessary parts of the sacrament, as is the proper form (“In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit”

 

[guanophore]

I hope you will all see i’m not trying to win some kind of debate, here. I’m looking for the truth by asking questions to see if what you believe is true. The answers you all give me i will consider carefully to see if they stand up to my questions.

I’m using what is called the Socratic Method. Like Socrates i’m interested not in proving i’m right but in seeing whether others are wrong.

And by what standard will you judge that?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

If anyone is interested in discussing the sacrament of baptism, please post a reply at the “Why Baptism?” discussion thread. If anyone is interested in just telling me about yourself or asking me about myself, please post a reply at the “Please Tell Me” discussion thread. If you have no interest in associating with a Protestant, please read Jesus’ parables:

biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=15&version=72

 

[Superstar905]

I hope you will all see i’m not trying to win some kind of debate, here. I’m looking for the truth by asking questions to see if what you believe is true. The answers you all give me i will consider carefully to see if they stand up to my questions.

I’m using what is called the Socratic Method. Like Socrates i’m interested not in proving i’m right but in seeing whether others are wrong.

I think its obvious you are completely sincere. Keep going!