Question from a Seeking Jew

[jimmytoes]

I was just thinking about something, and wanted to ask a question. Is baptism similar to a mikveh? (As far as purpose, etc?) Did Christian baptism originate with the Jewish mikveh, for example? I’ve noticed some similarities between the two, such as the cleansing aspect.

Actually, I believe it originated, as all the Sacraments do, with Jesus saying something was “necessary” e.g. Unless you are born again of water and the spirit, you cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. or “Do this in memory of Me”.

Turning to Acts, we can see that there is more of a connection to circumcision: Circumcision was a sign of the Covenant between God and Israel. Baptism was a sign of the New Covenant between God and all of his children. c.f. Acts 15, Romans 3.

Like I say, I’m not good with chapter and verse citings, but you get the Idea, I hope.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

jimmytoes:

Actually, I believe it originated, as all the Sacraments do, with Jesus saying something was “necessary” e.g. Unless you are born again of water and the spirit, you cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. or “Do this in memory of Me”.

Turning to Acts, we can see that there is more of a connection to circumcision: Circumcision was a sign of the Covenant between God and Israel. Baptism was a sign of the New Covenant between God and all of his children. c.f. Acts 15, Romans 3.

Like I say, I’m not good with chapter and verse citings, but you get the Idea, I hope.

I read the part in Acts about baptism. There does seem to be a connection between circumcision and baptism. I still can’t help but think that the mikveh plays a part in ther somewhere too. I mean, the mikveh is so similar to the baptism.

 

[theMutant]

Jew_Man_73:

I was just thinking about something, and wanted to ask a question. Is baptism similar to a mikveh?

I must confess my ignorance here. Could you please explain mikveh so I (we) can compare them?

 

[Jew_Man_73]

theMutant:

I must confess my ignorance here. Could you please explain mikveh so I (we) can compare them?

A mikveh is a ceremonial cleansing that Jews do. It is performed by immersing the entire body in water. It must be moving water, such as a stream. However, there are many indoor mikvehs now. They are constructed in various ways to keep the water moving. It must be performed nude, in front of a witness(es). (Same gender, of course.) It’s peformed for a variety of reasons. Women commonly undergo a mikveh after finishing their monthly menstruation, but that’s not the only reason. Men undergo mikvehs befopre certain holidays, for example. Of copurse, this is extremely brief. For a detailed explanation of a mikveh, look it up on www.jewfaq.org. Thanks!

 

[antiaphrodite]

Jew_Man_73:

I believe it was for the best. I’m just curious: Were there alot of people in the theater getting upset when you went to see it?

my mom was crying too, and my dad was really affected as well. as for the others–i can’t really tell. i was too carried away

 

[antiaphrodite]

Jew_Man_73:

A mikveh is a ceremonial cleansing that Jews do. It is performed by immersing the entire body in water. It must be moving water, such as a stream. However, there are many indoor mikvehs now. They are constructed in various ways to keep the water moving. It must be performed nude, in front of a witness(es). (Same gender, of course.) It’s peformed for a variety of reasons. Women commonly undergo a mikveh after finishing their monthly menstruation, but that’s not the only reason. Men undergo mikvehs befopre certain holidays, for example. Of copurse, this is extremely brief. For a detailed explanation of a mikveh, look it up on www.jewfaq.org. Thanks!

well, they do sound similar in baptism, though, it is original sin that is being washed away

 

[Jew_Man_73]

antiaphrodite:

my mom was crying too, and my dad was really affected as well. as for the others–i can’t really tell. i was too carried away

I understand. I was crying so hard, I wasn’t paying any attention to the priest or RCIA director. I was definitely interacting with what was going on onscreen. I’m even thinking about buying the DVD.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

antiaphrodite:

well, they do sound similar in baptism, though, it is original sin that is being washed away

Right, and mikvehs have to be repeated. The similarities are striking, though. What about an adult convert? Is baptism performed for the removal of original sin if the person is an adult, as well? Or is it performed for another purpose?

 

[antiaphrodite]

Jew_Man_73:

Right, and mikvehs have to be repeated. The similarities are striking, though. What about an adult convert? Is baptism performed for the removal of original sin if the person is an adult, as well? Or is it performed for another purpose?

baptism is intitiaton into the Christian life, and through that, original sin is washed away, and the person is renewed in Christ. that goes for babies and adults

 

[Jew_Man_73]

antiaphrodite:

baptism is intitiaton into the Christian life, and through that, original sin is washed away, and the person is renewed in Christ. that goes for babies and adults

Ok. That must be why the Catholic Church doesn’t require baptism for adults who were baptized in other churches.

 

[CARose]

Jew_Man_73:

Ok. That must be why the Catholic Church doesn’t require baptism for adults who were baptized in other churches.

Correct! As long as the baptism was done with water and using the correct words “I baptise you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit” and where the person doing the baptism has the correct intent of baptising the person, it is a valid baptism. This sacrament is one of two that do not need a priest. The other is Marriage, although marriages between a Catholic and another (Catholic or otherwise) do need to be performed by a priest or deacon to be valid in the eyes of the Church. But the priest does not confer the Sacrament, the couple confer it upon one another. So two non-Catholic Christians who marry outside the church have a sacramental marriage, even if they don’t know it.

And regarding your thoughts on baptism and the Mikvah, interesting thought. I think you are correct! I hadn’t thought of it before, but the parallels are certainly there. As has been mentioned however, the baptism is most closely aligned with the Bris, as both are to be performed when the child is an infant (according to Catholic teaching, Protestants differ on their view of infant baptism). Both instill an indelible sign that the person is a child of God (either part of his Chosen People for Jews, or actually an adopted member of God’s family for Catholics).

You will find that some Protestants object to infant baptism, insisting that one must first understand and accept Christ to be baptised. However, the Grace that one receives through baptism is a free gift from God, undeserved, as are all the Graces we receive. A child is worthy of such a gift only through God’s infinite Love and Mercy. Certainly no adult is more worthy of such a gift than would be an innocent child. It is then the responsibility of the parents and the God parents to ensure the child is taught the truth of Christ through the Church.

CARose

 

[Jew_Man_73]

CARose:

Correct! As long as the baptism was done with water and using the correct words “I baptise you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit” and where the person doing the baptism has the correct intent of baptising the person, it is a valid baptism. This sacrament is one of two that do not need a priest. The other is Marriage, although marriages between a Catholic and another (Catholic or otherwise) do need to be performed by a priest or deacon to be valid in the eyes of the Church. But the priest does not confer the Sacrament, the couple confer it upon one another. So two non-Catholic Christians who marry outside the church have a sacramental marriage, even if they don’t know it.

And regarding your thoughts on baptism and the Mikvah, interesting thought. I think you are correct! I hadn’t thought of it before, but the parallels are certainly there. As has been mentioned however, the baptism is most closely aligned with the Bris, as both are to be performed when the child is an infant (according to Catholic teaching, Protestants differ on their view of infant baptism). Both instill an indelible sign that the person is a child of God (either part of his Chosen People for Jews, or actually an adopted member of God’s family for Catholics).

You will find that some Protestants object to infant baptism, insisting that one must first understand and accept Christ to be baptised. However, the Grace that one receives through baptism is a free gift from God, undeserved, as are all the Graces we receive. A child is worthy of such a gift only through God’s infinite Love and Mercy. Certainly no adult is more worthy of such a gift than would be an innocent child. It is then the responsibility of the parents and the God parents to ensure the child is taught the truth of Christ through the Church.

CARose

Yes, the parallels are there. Honestly, the parallels are stronger between the mikveh and Protestant baptism, because most Protestant sects don’t practice infant baptism. However, there are similarities between Catholic baptism and the mikveh too. It still makes me wonder. What if circumcision and the mikveh both were precursors to Christian baptism?

 

[CARose]

Oh, an extra bonus for adult baptism is that not only is original sin removed but also actual sin is washed completely away through baptism. This only counts once, you cannot simply return for a new baptism to cleans you from your sins.

That’s where confession comes in. One confesses to the Priest and the priest has been given the authority to act “In Persona Christi” in the forgiveness of sins per John 20:21-23

Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are fogiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

In this portion of scripture, Christ ordains his first ministers and gives them the authority to go forth and forgive sins, as his Father sent him, so he sends them. This is one of the reasons it is so important to retain Apostolic Succession, one must be sent by someone with Authority to send others out in Christ’s name. This authority is retained in the Bishop, who ordains priests and deacons.

It sounds like you’re dipping your toes into the font of all that the Church offers. Enjoy!

You remain in my prayers,

CARose

 

[CARose]

Jew_Man_73:

What if circumcision and the mikveh both were precursors to Christian baptism?

As with may things Catholic, when presented with an either/or question, most frequently the Catholic answer will be Both. So, while I’d not previously seen the connection, I have to say that I recognize the similarity and would support saying it is ALSO a precursor to it.

CARose

 

[Jew_Man_73]

CARose:

Oh, an extra bonus for adult baptism is that not only is original sin removed but also actual sin is washed completely away through baptism. This only counts once, you cannot simply return for a new baptism to cleans you from your sins.

That’s where confession comes in. One confesses to the Priest and the priest has been given the authority to act “In Persona Christi” in the forgiveness of sins per John 20:21-23

In this portion of scripture, Christ ordains his first ministers and gives them the authority to go forth and forgive sins, as his Father sent him, so he sends them. This is one of the reasons it is so important to retain Apostolic Succession, one must be sent by someone with Authority to send others out in Christ’s name. This authority is retained in the Bishop, who ordains priests and deacons.

It sounds like you’re dipping your toes into the font of all that the Church offers. Enjoy!

You remain in my prayers,

CARose

Where does Apostolic Succession come from? Thank you for your prayers!

 

[Jew_Man_73]

CARose:

As with may things Catholic, when presented with an either/or question, most frequently the Catholic answer will be Both. So, while I’d not previously seen the connection, I have to say that I recognize the similarity and would support saying it is ALSO a precursor to it.

CARose

Ok, that makes sense to me. I think I would agree with that. Another simialrity between Catholicism and Judaism.

 

[CARose]

Apostolic succession starts with Jesus, see in the passage quoted above, he breathed on the disciples before telling them to go forward and forgive sins, sent as he was sent.

Apostolic succession has been maintained from these original Apostles through to the current Priests and Bishops. The sacrament of the Most Holy Eucharist cannot be confirred without a valid Priesthood, sent from the Father, through Christ. The Catholic Church has retained that authority in an unbroken succession from the days of Christ. The Papalcy is an excellent way of demonstrating the unbroken line of succession in the primary Chair of Peter.

The Orthodox Churches (e.g. Eastern Orthodox) also have Apostolic Succession so they have a valid Eucharist as well, although they do not recognise the primacy of Peter, or his successors. This rift occurred before the year 1000, when the Crusaders sacked Constantine (oops).

CARose

 

[CARose]

Yes, Catholicism and Judiasm have many things in common. I loved the Jewish tendancy to debate and hash things out. I think this thread is an excellent example of that in the most civilized of manners.

It has been fun discussing these things with you.

CARose

 

[Jew_Man_73]

CARose:

Apostolic succession starts with Jesus, see in the passage quoted above, he breathed on the disciples before telling them to go forward and forgive sins, sent as he was sent.

Apostolic succession has been maintained from these original Apostles through to the current Priests and Bishops. The sacrament of the Most Holy Eucharist cannot be confirred without a valid Priesthood, sent from the Father, through Christ. The Catholic Church has retained that authority in an unbroken succession from the days of Christ. The Papalcy is an excellent way of demonstrating the unbroken line of succession in the primary Chair of Peter.

The Orthodox Churches (e.g. Eastern Orthodox) also have Apostolic Succession so they have a valid Eucharist as well, although they do not recognise the primacy of Peter, or his successors. This rift occurred before the year 1000, when the Crusaders sacked Constantine (oops).

CARose

I don’t understand what this is though. How does the Catholic Church know it has Apostolic succession? I don’t remember reading anything about it in the gospels or in Acts. Is there anything written on it, something I can read?

 

[Jew_Man_73]

CARose:

Yes, Catholicism and Judiasm have many things in common. I loved the Jewish tendancy to debate and hash things out. I think this thread is an excellent example of that in the most civilized of manners.

It has been fun discussing these things with you.

CARose

Yes, in that way I’m definitely very Jewish! I’m happy with what this thread has become, and it has been alot of fun for me too.