Question from a Seeking Jew

[theMutant]

Mel Gibson used the Gospels and the vision of a Saint who had visions of the life and death of Jesus but whose name currently escapes me (anyone??). The Gospels don’t record this difference between the Jewish officials but Acts does record such an incident which occurred after the Crucifixion. Chapter 5, verses 17 through 42. It is reasonable to assume that not all of the Jewish officials were called to condemn Jesus as well but only those who were sympathetic to such a thing.

 

[CARose]

Jew Man 73,

I would like you to know that you remain in my thoughts and prayers and I even mentioned to my husband at the dinner table how impressed I was that you not only heard my suggestion to see the movie the Passion, but you actually went ahead and saw it with the RCIA director and Pastor. That’s awesome!

Your response and willingness to be cooperative to the call of the Holy Spirit is truly amazing to me! Would that we all listened and responded as wonderfully as you have. The world would be a better place if all men listened to the will of God.

Your journey, even as small a series of steps as you’ve taken this far, are a beautiful witness to all that God has made us to be! Thank you for sharing it with us and allowing us to participate!
I was reading your post about having met many G-dly Jewish people and I need to tell you that I too found some absolutely wonderful, G-dly people in the Jewish Faith. I studied under a Chabbad Rabbi for several years and then after college moved to within 2 blocks of the temple to make it possible to walk to Shabbas Service. The Rabbi from Central California and the one on the Peninsula (SF Bay Area) were both incredible people, as were the members of their respective communities.

But when I realized in my heart, that the something missing was that they fervantly sought the Messiach that had already arrived, I knew that nothing could keep me standing with them in anticipation. And yet, all, with the exception of the anticipation, had been true. Their love for G-d, their desire to serve him through the actions in their lives, their awareness that G-d had chosen them, these were all beautiful and compelling truths, and yet they were insufficient.

It took me a long time to make the transition, but I eventually came home, ready to accept that I had once rejected the truth that I had been offered as a child. I now thank God for returning me to the place where I can find 100% of the teachings God has made available to His adopted childen, all the children of the world. He makes the Fullness of His Truth available through His Mystical Body, the Catholic Church.

Know that I continue to keep you in my prayers,

CARose

 

[CARose]

theMutant:

Mel Gibson used the Gospels and the vision of a Saint who had visions of the life and death of Jesus but whose name currently escapes me (anyone??). The Gospels don’t record this difference between the Jewish officials but Acts does record such an incident which occurred after the Crucifixion. Chapter 5, verses 17 through 42. It is reasonable to assume that not all of the Jewish officials were called to condemn Jesus as well but only those who were sympathetic to such a thing.

I believe it was Anne Catherine Emmerick.

CARose

 

[ThinkEternity]

You all need to read this book.

A Woman rides the Beast by Dave Hunt.

A woman rides the beast

It will open your eyes to the history of the Roman Catholic church and expose it for what it is.

If y’all are open to the truth.

 

[CARose]

ThinkEternity,

Please think about your eternity and the eternity that is Christ. If you bothered to read the review of the book you recommended you yourself would see that the points it attempts to make have already been clearly refuted.

Why do you come to a Catholic site and make such a post?

Cease and desist!

CARose

 

[Jew_Man_73]

ThinkEternity:

You all need to read this book.

A Woman rides the Beast by Dave Hunt.

A woman rides the beast

It will open your eyes to the history of the Roman Catholic church and expose it for what it is.

If y’all are open to the truth.

Please get off this thread. If you want to start your own thread about the evils of the Catholic church, feel free.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

CARose:

ThinkEternity,

Please think about your eternity and the eternity that is Christ. If you bothered to read the review of the book you recommended you yourself would see that the points it attempts to make have already been clearly refuted.

Why do you come to a Catholic site and make such a post?

Cease and desist!

CARose

Thank you. The Catholics who have responded to my posts have been nothing but kind and loving. This speaks volumes to me. This person needs to leave this thread.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

theMutant:

Mel Gibson used the Gospels and the vision of a Saint who had visions of the life and death of Jesus but whose name currently escapes me (anyone??). The Gospels don’t record this difference between the Jewish officials but Acts does record such an incident which occurred after the Crucifixion. Chapter 5, verses 17 through 42. It is reasonable to assume that not all of the Jewish officials were called to condemn Jesus as well but only those who were sympathetic to such a thing.

Thanks for explining this to me, but how can anyone know if this saint is telling the truth? I mean, how do you know if it isn’t in the Bible? I’m a little confused. Please explain. Thanks.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

CARose:

Jew Man 73,

I would like you to know that you remain in my thoughts and prayers and I even mentioned to my husband at the dinner table how impressed I was that you not only heard my suggestion to see the movie the Passion, but you actually went ahead and saw it with the RCIA director and Pastor. That’s awesome!

Your response and willingness to be cooperative to the call of the Holy Spirit is truly amazing to me! Would that we all listened and responded as wonderfully as you have. The world would be a better place if all men listened to the will of God.

Your journey, even as small a series of steps as you’ve taken this far, are a beautiful witness to all that God has made us to be! Thank you for sharing it with us and allowing us to participate!
I was reading your post about having met many G-dly Jewish people and I need to tell you that I too found some absolutely wonderful, G-dly people in the Jewish Faith. I studied under a Chabbad Rabbi for several years and then after college moved to within 2 blocks of the temple to make it possible to walk to Shabbas Service. The Rabbi from Central California and the one on the Peninsula (SF Bay Area) were both incredible people, as were the members of their respective communities.

But when I realized in my heart, that the something missing was that they fervantly sought the Messiach that had already arrived, I knew that nothing could keep me standing with them in anticipation. And yet, all, with the exception of the anticipation, had been true. Their love for G-d, their desire to serve him through the actions in their lives, their awareness that G-d had chosen them, these were all beautiful and compelling truths, and yet they were insufficient.

It took me a long time to make the transition, but I eventually came home, ready to accept that I had once rejected the truth that I had been offered as a child. I now thank God for returning me to the place where I can find 100% of the teachings God has made available to His adopted childen, all the children of the world. He makes the Fullness of His Truth available through His Mystical Body, the Catholic Church.

Know that I continue to keep you in my prayers,

CARose

Thank you for your continued prayers. I appreciate them very much. Since you were once a religious Jew, what do you think of the Jewish refutations for all the Messianic passages in the TANAKH, and the Messianic passages in the New Testament? As I’m sure you know, Jews refute the passages very well, and have their own passages and explanations. The “Jews for Judaism” website has over 130 Messianic passages listed, with refutations. What about the Jewish position that the Christian Bible is mistranslated, and based on faulty manuscripts? What about the Jewish position that the Messaich will be a mortal man, a political leader, and not the Son of God? My rabbi presented all these questions to me today, and I was at a loss. I couldn’t answer.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

CARose:

I believe it was Anne Catherine Emmerick.

CARose

I’ve heard of her. Mel Gibson talked about her on TV, I think. How has she come to be accepted, though? Is she on the same level as the Bible in the eyes of the Catholic church?

 

[theMutant]

Jew_Man_73:

Thanks for explining this to me, but how can anyone know if this saint is telling the truth? I mean, how do you know if it isn’t in the Bible? I’m a little confused. Please explain. Thanks.

Ah, now you are touching on a subject which I have only begun to examine (thoroughly) myself - the process by which the Church declares Saints! What I have studied so far has strengthened my faith tremendously. However, it should be noted that there is no requirement to accept the visions given to any particular Saint. Mel Gibson clearly does in this case and so he included it.

It goes a bit off the original topic but, since it is your thread…

When a holy person dies, there is often a petition to declare them a Saint. To be clear, Catholicism has two levels of sainthood. All of the members of the Church (everyone who is validly baptized) is properly called a saint by virtue of their share in the universal priesthood of Christ. In this sence, all Christian churches (that I know of) use this meaning and it is found in the Bible as well. The title, Saint, which is what most Catholics think of, is a declaration by the Church that the soul of the person in question is, in fact, in Heaven. In ancient days, Saints were declared by popular assent but over the centuries, it was found that some people were popularly acclaimed who, upon further investigation of their lives, were not worthy of the title. A formal process was therefore set up which includes a thorough investigation of the person’s life (including statements by both supporters and detractors) is conducted to ensure that they lived a life of “heroic virtue.” Added to this is the requirement of confirmed miracles credited to their intercession.

A “confirmed miracle” is one in which non-Catholics experts are invited to examine the facts to determine if there is any possible natural cause for the event in question. Only those which completely defy nature qualify. A great movie that describes this is “A Song for Bernadette.” (which was actually written by a Jew named Franz Werfel who learned the story - I heard - while being hidden from the Nazis and then wrote a book about it.)

Anyway, there are many aspects and nuances to the process with which I am only somewhat familiar. But I have read articles written by non-Catholics who have studied the process. Some of them went into the study intending to show fraud in the process and, instead, wrote how they were amazed at how rigorous the process was. It isn’t easy to be declared a Saint in the Catholic Church. Mother Teresa, whom I believe is a Saint, has not yet been declared one.

 

[theMutant]

Jew_Man_73:

I’ve heard of her. Mel Gibson talked about her on TV, I think. How has she come to be accepted, though? Is she on the same level as the Bible in the eyes of the Catholic church?

No, she is not on the same level as the Bible. All Catholics must accept what the Bible teaches because it is the inspired Word of God and is without error. Catholics are not bound to accept any particular vision or message given by a Saint. However, the declaration of Sainthood does show the consistency of the visions or messages with Catholic teaching.

 

[theMutant]

Jew_Man_73:

What about the Jewish position that the Christian Bible is mistranslated, and based on faulty manuscripts? What about the Jewish position that the Messaich will be a mortal man, a political leader, and not the Son of God? My rabbi presented all these questions to me today, and I was at a loss.

Although we believe that Jesus is the Son of God, the fact that He died on the Cross shows that He was mortal. (Of course, now that He has resurrected, that is no longer the case.) Is the view that the Messiah would be a political leader in the sense the Rabbi intends the only possible interpretation of the prophecies in question? Do those prophecies actually state that the Messian will not be the Son of God?

Regarding the accuracy of the manuscripts. The Latin Vulgate of St. Jerome is the oldest surviving document which contains the entire Hebrew Scriptures. Fragments of documents pre-dating it have been found and, when compared to the Vulgate, have shown that it is a very accurate translation.

Without wanting to attack the Rabbi, I would ask the following questions.

If the Messiah has not come, then all of the Levitical and Deuterocanonical Laws still apply. Those Laws require daily animal sacrifices at the Temple. Additionally, the sacrifice of the Atonement, which is required every year by the high priest, must be placed on the Tabernacle. I understand that all Jews were required to go annually to offer a sacrifice at the temple. That Jewish women were to offer a sacrifice at the end of their purification after having a baby?

1: Who is the current high priest?

2: Are the descendents of Levi still ordained and serving according to the Law?

3: Since God Himself requires these Sacrifices, why have the Jews not been able to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem in nearly 2000 years? Even in the Old Testament, when the Jews were overrun, God re-established them. When the first Temple was destroyed, it was rebuilt.

4: Even if the Temple building gets rebuilt, where is the Tabernacle – without which, it would still not be the Temple?

I’m sorry, but Judaism as a religion cannot be practice in its completeness. This has been true since 70 AD when the Romans destroyed the Temple – 40 years after Christ’s crucifixion. Now, the time frame for the esablishment of the Catholic Church by Jesus and the fall of Jerusalem and the ability to fully practice the Jewish faith is either the work of God or the most incredible coincidence in history.

For more insight on this, I highly recommend two more things by Scott Hahn: “The Book of Hebrews: House of the Rising Son” and “The End” along with the previously mentioned “Salvation is from the Jews,” “Salvation History,” and “A Father Who Keeps His Promises.”

 

[theMutant]

theMutant:

I’m sorry, but Judaism as a religion cannot be practice in its completeness. This has been true since 70 AD when the Romans destroyed the Temple – 40 years after Christ’s crucifixion.

Clarification

It cannot be practiced in its completion except in the Catholic Church; where priests present the sacrifice daily on our altars and where we have tabernacles containing the Word of God.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

theMutant:

Ah, now you are touching on a subject which I have only begun to examine (thoroughly) myself - the process by which the Church declares Saints! What I have studied so far has strengthened my faith tremendously. However, it should be noted that there is no requirement to accept the visions given to any particular Saint. Mel Gibson clearly does in this case and so he included it.

It goes a bit off the original topic but, since it is your thread…

When a holy person dies, there is often a petition to declare them a Saint. To be clear, Catholicism has two levels of sainthood. All of the members of the Church (everyone who is validly baptized) is properly called a saint by virtue of their share in the universal priesthood of Christ. In this sence, all Christian churches (that I know of) use this meaning and it is found in the Bible as well. The title, Saint, which is what most Catholics think of, is a declaration by the Church that the soul of the person in question is, in fact, in Heaven. In ancient days, Saints were declared by popular assent but over the centuries, it was found that some people were popularly acclaimed who, upon further investigation of their lives, were not worthy of the title. A formal process was therefore set up which includes a thorough investigation of the person’s life (including statements by both supporters and detractors) is conducted to ensure that they lived a life of “heroic virtue.” Added to this is the requirement of confirmed miracles credited to their intercession.

A “confirmed miracle” is one in which non-Catholics experts are invited to examine the facts to determine if there is any possible natural cause for the event in question. Only those which completely defy nature qualify. A great movie that describes this is “A Song for Bernadette.” (which was actually written by a Jew named Franz Werfel who learned the story - I heard - while being hidden from the Nazis and then wrote a book about it.)

Anyway, there are many aspects and nuances to the process with which I am only somewhat familiar. But I have read articles written by non-Catholics who have studied the process. Some of them went into the study intending to show fraud in the process and, instead, wrote how they were amazed at how rigorous the process was. It isn’t easy to be declared a Saint in the Catholic Church. Mother Teresa, whom I believe is a Saint, has not yet been declared one.

Thank you. I appreciate your response. This gives me a little more of an understanding about how people are sainted in the Catholic church. So if a confirmed miracle is attributed to a particular person, then the person is naturally understood to be in Heaven?
I think it’s good that non-Catholics are invited to investigate the miracles too. That gives it more credibility, in my opinion. To not allow non-Catholics to investigate would be very one-sided, I think. Do you know if this man Franz Werfel converted to the Catholic faith or remained in Judaism?
By the way, I agree with you about Mother Teresa. If anyone ever deserved to be made a saint, she does. When she was alive, I followed every news story and article about her that I came across. I’ve always had a deep admiration for her. That may sound strange coming from a Jew, but I did. She was the embodiment of love.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

theMutant:

Although we believe that Jesus is the Son of God, the fact that He died on the Cross shows that He was mortal. (Of course, now that He has resurrected, that is no longer the case.) Is the view that the Messiah would be a political leader in the sense the Rabbi intends the only possible interpretation of the prophecies in question? Do those prophecies actually state that the Messian will not be the Son of God?

Regarding the accuracy of the manuscripts. The Latin Vulgate of St. Jerome is the oldest surviving document which contains the entire Hebrew Scriptures. Fragments of documents pre-dating it have been found and, when compared to the Vulgate, have shown that it is a very accurate translation.

Without wanting to attack the Rabbi, I would ask the following questions.

If the Messiah has not come, then all of the Levitical and Deuterocanonical Laws still apply. Those Laws require daily animal sacrifices at the Temple. Additionally, the sacrifice of the Atonement, which is required every year by the high priest, must be placed on the Tabernacle. I understand that all Jews were required to go annually to offer a sacrifice at the temple. That Jewish women were to offer a sacrifice at the end of their purification after having a baby?

1: Who is the current high priest?

2: Are the descendents of Levi still ordained and serving according to the Law?

3: Since God Himself requires these Sacrifices, why have the Jews not been able to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem in nearly 2000 years? Even in the Old Testament, when the Jews were overrun, God re-established them. When the first Temple was destroyed, it was rebuilt.

4: Even if the Temple building gets rebuilt, where is the Tabernacle – without which, it would still not be the Temple?

I’m sorry, but Judaism as a religion cannot be practice in its completeness. This has been true since 70 AD when the Romans destroyed the Temple – 40 years after Christ’s crucifixion. Now, the time frame for the esablishment of the Catholic Church by Jesus and the fall of Jerusalem and the ability to fully practice the Jewish faith is either the work of God or the most incredible coincidence in history.

For more insight on this, I highly recommend two more things by Scott Hahn: “The Book of Hebrews: House of the Rising Son” and “The End” along with the previously mentioned “Salvation is from the Jews,” “Salvation History,” and “A Father Who Keeps His Promises.”

Thank you for the book recommendations. my local public library has a large Catholic section; I’ll see if they have these.
As far as the sacrifices go, Jews believe that repentance for sins now takes the place of sacrifices, since there is no Temple now. However, Jews also believe that the Messiah will rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem one day, when he sets up the one world government in Jerusalem and has revealed himself to the world. In addition, he will also usher in an era of peace and reveal to the world that Judaism is the only true religion, and all the world will convert to teh Jewish faith. I don’t believe there is a high priest now, or that the descendants of Levi are serving, due to the lack of a Temple. I willa dmit, Judaism is an ioncomplete religion, but Jews believe that the Messiah will make it complete again when he appears.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Clarification

It cannot be practiced in its completion except in the Catholic Church; where priests present the sacrifice daily on our altars and where we have tabernacles containing the Word of God.

So basically, do Catholics consider the Catholic faith to be “Judaism Completed”, so to speak? Not really a new religion, but a continuation of the old?
If I do end up converting to teh Catholic faith, I need to hold on to my Jewishness somehow. It’s very important to me to honor that half of my heritage. That’s why I was excited to find out about the Association of Hebrew Catholics. At this point, I’m praying every day and leaving myself open to wherever G-d leads me and whatever truths He reveals to me.

 

[CARose]

Jew_Man_73,

I wish I could honestly assure you that all Catholics think . However, there is no truth that ALL who call themselves Catholic agree on. But, those who know their faith should understand that we are the fulfillment of Judaism.

At the same time, there are some of us who understand it more fully than others, either due to our previous experiences or our study of scripture and history and a realization of what it means.

CARose

 

[CARose]

Jew_Man_73:

I’ve heard of her. Mel Gibson talked about her on TV, I think. How has she come to be accepted, though? Is she on the same level as the Bible in the eyes of the Catholic church?

No, Public Revelation was completed in the Apostolic age. Sacred Tradition, especially as retained in the Liturgy and the Bible are the respository of Public Revelation. What Anne experienced was private revelation and no-one is required to believe private revelation. Furthermore, private revelation cannot be true if it in anyway contradicts Sacred Scripture or Dogma.

CARose

 

[CARose]

Jew_Man_73:

Thank you for your continued prayers. I appreciate them very much. Since you were once a religious Jew, what do you think of the Jewish refutations for all the Messianic passages in the TANAKH, and the Messianic passages in the New Testament? As I’m sure you know, Jews refute the passages very well, and have their own passages and explanations. The “Jews for Judaism” website has over 130 Messianic passages listed, with refutations. What about the Jewish position that the Christian Bible is mistranslated, and based on faulty manuscripts? What about the Jewish position that the Messaich will be a mortal man, a political leader, and not the Son of God? My rabbi presented all these questions to me today, and I was at a loss. I couldn’t answer.

I couldn’t go through all the Jewish refutations, because I simply knew that the Messiah had already arrived, in a way that had nothing to do with logic and scripture. But with this, it took me years before I was ready and willing to explore any religion again.

Once I did, I re-entered Catholicism slowly, not from a “Judaism is wrong” perspective, but from a “is Catholicism correct?” point of view. Now, after many years of being back in the Church I know that what the Jews expect is based upon their human expectations.

CARose