Question: If Hell is populated with many damned souls, should this be a consideration for bringing children into the world?

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Bear in mind that after 2000 years of Saints and the Holy Spirit pretty much all that is known about Hell, with the Scriptures, the words of Jesus and Paul studied, is very slim. The vast majority of our conjecture remains just that conjecture, with Dante affecting Western thinking as much as St. Paul.

It is best that where the Church does not have doctrine, that all positions be accepted without resort to condemning each other. Bear in mind that after 2000 years of Saints and the Holy Spirit pretty much all that is known about Hell, with the Scriptures, the words of Jesus and Paul studied, is very slim. The vast majority of our conjecture remains just that conjecture, with Dante affecting Western thinking as much as St. Paul.

It is best that where the Church does not have doctrine, that all positions be accepted without resort to condemning each other.
 
thistle said:
Yes because it is Church doctrine.
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Imagery is not doctrine. The same scripture could be used to say we have a doctrine of teeth, as much as a doctrine of fire, or a doctrine of food, doors, etc. There may well be fire, physical burning, but I think it a stretch to say it is a doctrine based on images of Hell.
 
I have not read the whole thread, about half, but did the poster reject Christ, or your argument? I say that because in an area that the Church allows great latitude of what is orthodox, I would say accusing one of rejecting Christ would be much more serious than some sort of incorrect thinking.
 
I accept Saint John Paul II OPINION and the Pope in 1908. That is a pretty long span of years to have the best available men in the Vatican to read those sparce sections you speak of.
In the 20th century the church is likely not interested in representing fire in the spiritual world as the next inquiry about specifics is not a good one. It isn’t like this was a problem in DANTE’s day. Or Saint Augustine when you could opine hell is inside the earth, a ND who will question that furthur.
 
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I see lots of people say I don’t have to believe this Pope’s comment, I have this other authoritative thing.
I am not going to act like I might say the same in some circumstance. I am not above it. But I do wonder if people exercise caution before such a comment. If they are so invested in an idea that they jump to defend it. Rather than asking themselves, hey this Pope, who is a Saint, a talented professor/ teacher of theology and philosophy, why is he saying this.
 
This is because “personal feelings” are the vision of loved ones burning hell. When we discuss this we must (I feel) accept the reality of the vision. Pardon the crude (but realistic example), when we see our child fall of a peddle bike and skin their knee badly, or get bullied in school and have their little heart broken we cringe inside. We hurt more than they do. But our faith, if interpreted in such a way, dictates that there is a reality (depending on how it is viewed) even a likelihood that they will suffer for all eternity in mental and physical anguish beyond our wildest imagination. This, is what we are discussing.

For those who may think this is taking it to extreme (in terms of the potential of hell) think, Catholics who do not regularity attend Mass, Catholics who contracept, most non-Catholics. Some will suggest God gives them one last chance at death. This would be the extra-ordinary means of salvation not the ordinary. Which contradicts the term extra-ordinary.

If this is so ThomaBall, then I would take Maximus1 question in the title one step further. I would wish I were never born. IF, I make it to heaven, there can be no joy in knowing my child (who skinned their knee and who was bullied and it broke my heart) is now burning in everlasting fire.

I ask - where is the joy in this? How can there be joy in this. I call this the “hell dance”. When people talk of hell but do not appear to be addressing the reality of the definition of said hell and appear somewhat casual about the ration of saved to damned. There is something wrong with the picture. If as a human we created something (material or service oriented - we are not God) and most of the product failed, we would call it a failed experiment. Did God fail in his overall plan?
 
Well written. And let me answer your question also. I do not know how one could say such a scenario would not be a failure for God. ( Which is our point actually).
God is perfect. We are quite imperfect. Add finite , conditional and created by God.
Ephesians 1:3-4 and other passages
( he will be All in All for example)sets forth God’s plan well before we exist. ( 13 billion years).
So we have free will. How could our will thwart God’s will? Impossible.
You are right, where is the joy?
And it has been said many times by Doctors of the Church and others; what kind of God would God be besides scary and cruel.
 
I get it, Thomas. But, I think this approach is the “country club” mentality that I alluded to above to a separate poster. To my mind, this approach suffers from group over-identification. A person like this is so happy to be “in the club” and even willing (maybe hoping?) that God will keep out all the people who don’t belong who might infect the goodness of the club and bring it down. If, as intrinsic to being a part of the club, you are OK with some people suffering endlessly while you are living in bliss endlessly, I would say this borderlines on a pathology. You’ve got your golden ticket, and what does it matter if the ‘bad’ people suffer forever in endless torment?!? It’s an awful vision of the future.

But, of course, mercy transcends justice. It is a higher good than justice. No one wants to live in a world where we always get what we deserve (justice), but everyone wants to live in a world where mercy, love and understanding are readily available.

As I’ve noted in innumerable threads in CAF on Hell, the notion of an inescapable, neverending punishment for finite crime(s) is an offense against justice itself. It actually has nothing to do with justice. In fact, it’s almost counter-merciful. As in, just as mercy is a higher good than justice and suspends it and transcends it, the Augustinian Hell is similarly related to justice, only in the reverse direction. This vision of Hell suspends justice and goes well beneath it to become something much more awful and disgusting. It makes a mockery of justice. Anyone in an inescapable, neverending state of conscious torment and suffering is the recipient of something much worse than justice. Malice would be a more appropriate concept for such a state of being. I don’t say this to be sensational. I say all this to continue to point out just how nasty the Augustinian Hell is to anyone of a proper-functioning conscience.

Many, many saints were pained by the very possibility of such a final state for any human. Sts Teresa of Avila, Catherine of Sienna and JH Newman, just to name a few. And these saints went so far as to tell God that they would do anything to prevent it from happening to a single soul (St Catherine was particularly articulate here). They would want to suffer themselves, so that someone else could escape Hell. That is the appropriate disposition–not the country club, golden ticket, I-got-in-who-cares-about-you? attitude. St Augustine’s vision for the future is repulsive, and we should never get desensitized to just how gross it is.
 
Maximus1 said:
sets forth God’s plan well before we exist. ( 13 billion years).
So we have free will. How could our will thwart God’s will? Impossible.
You are right, where is the joy?
And it has been said many times by Doctors of the Church and others; what kind of God would God be besides scary and cruel.
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My apologies Maximus1, I am not sure I am getting your point.

Perhaps I am…Are you suggesting that God set forth the plan of Salvation History (fall and all), since the beginning of time and we are now in such a time that we are sinning abundantly and are therefore about to fall victim to God’s plan and be cast into hell (those of us who die unrepentant). Therefore we see God as cruel and scary (as opposed to a failure)?

I don’t think that is your point, but it kind of reads that way.
 
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This thread is full of all-or-nothing thinking.

First, “Don’t allow humans to exist if there’s any possibility they’ll go to Hell!”

Then, “God forces everyone to be with Him forever, whether they like it or not! No free will! Mwahaha!”

God is a loving parent. He teaches you all about the rules of the road, and how to cross the road safely. He has mercy on people who are sincerely attempting to cross the road, and binds up their wounds or grabs them out of the way. He is eager to see you repent, even at the last minute; or to see you amend your life and do better, after repenting.

But if you really, really want to run head-on into a truck, He will let you. Yes, He will let you go against His will and get smeared into Hell’s catsup.

If you’re an adult, and possibly even a member of Christ’s holy family in God’s eyes, then you are an adult and responsible for your own body and soul – albeit an absurdly proud and angry, or possibly kinky, adult.

Go play in traffic if you really want to. See what you get.

Or better, try not to play in traffic and be sorry when you do, and live forever in joy.
 
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Let me rephrase. It’s not that St Catherine was able to finally reconcile herself with the ugly concept of an inescapable Hell. It’s that she recognized the immense value of all human souls and would place herself in harm’s way for their sakes. See if you can wrap your heart/mind around this quote:
“How could I ever reconcile myself, Lord, to the prospect that a single one of those whom, like me, you have created in yοur image and likeness should become lost and slip from your hands? No, in absolutely no case do I want to see a single one of my brethren meet with ruin, not a single one of those who, through their like birth, are one with me by nature and by grace. I want them all to be wrested from the grasp of the ancient enemy, so that they all become yours to the honor and greater glorification of your name.
If only your truth and your justice were to reveal themselves, then I would desire that there no longer be a hell, or at least that no soul would go there. If I could remain united with you in love while, at the same time, placing myself before the entrance to hell and blocking it off in such a way that no one could enter again, then that would be the greatest of joys for me, for all those whom I love would then be saved.” Dialogues of Catherine of Siena
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Mintaka said:
This thread is full of all-or-nothing thinking.
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I think Catholics can hardly be blamed for this. There is no strong tradition within Catholicism of considering any tertium quid besides the Augustinian vision and universalism reconciliation. For my part, I find the visions of Sts Gregory of Nyssa and Maximus the Confessor to be much more intriguing than that of St Augustine or any sort of blasé universalism. The great Fathers of the East recognized a place for Hell (even its punitive aspect), they just never imagined the horrific vision of forever-and-inescapable-torment-and-suffering from a “good” God. Regarding Hell, we Catholics are the unfortunate inheritors of the hyper-dualistic vision of St Augustine.

Saints Gregory and Maximus, pray for us!!
 
Magnanimity said:
I think Catholics can hardly be blamed for this.
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Humans can hardly be blamed. Of all the divine aspects of God, the most over-looked and most important in our understanding of God is His transcendence. He cannot understand God. We only know the smallest, the tiniest smidgen of what He is. It is really rather amazing how dogmatic some people are about the life planned for us after death in light of how little we can know, and it is rather pitiable the ferocity with which we project these limited opinions on others.
 
On a personal note, my own outlook is to look with hope for the salvation of all others, but for me, to assume nothing.
 
pnewton said:
On a personal note, my own outlook is to look with hope for the salvation of all others, but for me, to assume nothing.
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I love the sentiment. Wasn’t it Kierkegaard that said something like this?
 
If I may, let me add Edith Stein, whose position that God would find a way ( to spare souls the pain of hell and win them over) came at a worldly hell at Aushwitz, seeing God’s limitless love in such a place. martyr, and venerated a saint by SaInt Pope John Paul II, was said to be the inspiration for Balthazar work Dare we have hope. Saint Teresa Benedicta
 
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Maximus1 said:
If I may, let me add Edith Stein, whose position that God would find a way ( to spare souls the pain of hell and win them over) came at a worldly hell at Aushwitz
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Yes, definitely! From what I recall of Balthasar‘s book, he quotes stein at length on these issues. Stein is a huge inspiration.
 
You didn’t read my proposition. I assumed the position of a very limited salvation.
And the question was should that be a consideration. I am not eliminating free will if you check my position.
On the other hand, God’s will, ( one place it is memorialized was Ephesians 1:3-4) existed billions of years before we were created. Jesus Christ was part of that plan billions of years before us as well.
It seems absurd that our will could ever supplant his. It seems absurd to imagine an infinite punishment for a finite crime.
 
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