Question of fate?

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I had a few discussions with other friends on different threads about good, evil, creation and God and I was not satisfied with their answers. I think it is crucial to sped sometimes to discuss the issue in different thread. The main question is:

When does God knows the fate of a creation (a creature for example to simplify the problem)?

There are three possible options available here, namely before creation, right away after creation and cannot know at all. We assume that God is omnipotent, omniscience and perfectly good.

By omnipotence I mean God is able to do anything which is logically possible.

I use two definition for omniscience, one which is strong meaning that God knows everything and the other which is weak which means that God is only aware of current state of being.

Good is clear.

Lets start with, God knows the fate of creature before creation (this is strong omniscience): This unfortunately leads to an paradox. The following argument explain the argument:
  1. God know the fate of an creature.
  2. God create a creature.
  3. The creature turns into devil.
  4. God created a devil (since it knew its final destiny).
Creation of a creature with devil destiny is against the last God’s attribute, which state that God is perfectly good, so it can neither do evil nor create devil to do evil.

God knows the fate of creature after creation:

This first reduce omniscience of God. It is also very ironic statement since it reduces God to an entity without plan and knowledge about its creation. This remind me a picture that shows God throwing a dice when it creates something. We are not free of any anomaly in this case either.
  1. The creature with the eventual evil/good fate did not have any control on its creation.
  2. An creature with the eventual evil/good fate has not any control on its fate (since its fate only depends on the number that dice shows which was out of God’s control either)
  3. Evil/good creature get punishment/reward for what they have no control on it since their fate is already defined.
This is again against the concept of good God since a good God never punish a devil that its fate was out of its control.

God does not know the fate a creation at all:

This is weak omniscience but anomaly free. It also means that the concept of fate is an delusion.
 
Sorry for double post, I just wanted to make sure that my post is free of any mistakes.

I had a few discussions with other friends on different threads about good, evil, creation and God and I was not satisfied with their answers. I think it is crucial to spend sometimes to discuss the issue in different thread. The main question is:

When does God knows the fate of a creation (a creature for example to simplify the problem)?

There are three possible options available here, namely before creation, right away after creation and cannot know at all. We assume that God is omnipotent, omniscience and perfectly good.

By omnipotence I mean God is able to do anything which is logically possible.

I use two definition for omniscience, one which is strong meaning that God knows everything and the other which is weak which means that God is only aware of current state of being.

Good is clear.

Lets start with, God knows the fate of creature before creation (this is strong omniscience): This unfortunately leads to a paradox. The following argument explain the problem:
  1. God knows the fate of a creature.
  2. God create a creature.
  3. The creature turns into devil.
  4. God created a devil (since it knew its final destiny).
Creation of a creature with devil destiny is against the last God’s attribute, which state that God is perfectly good, so it can neither do evil nor create devil to do evil.

God knows the fate of creature after creation:

This first reduce omniscience of God. It is also very ironic statement since it reduces God to an entity without plan and knowledge about even its creation. This remind me a picture that shows God throwing a dice when it creates something. We are not free of any anomaly in this case either.
  1. The creature with the eventual evil/good fate did not have any control on its creation.
  2. The creature with the eventual evil/good fate has not any control on its fate (since its fate only depends on the number that dice shows which was out of God’s control either)
  3. Evil/good creature get punishment/reward for what they have no control on it since their fate is already defined.
This is again against the concept of good God since a good God never punish a devil that its fate was out of its control.

God does not know destiny of a creation at all:

This is weak omniscience but anomaly free. It also means that the concept of fate as it is explained in religious literature is a delusion.
 
I personally believe that our omnipotent God has known about each of us and the story of our individual lives eternally. However, in giving us free will, he allows us to choose the path we follow. Perhaps I am wrong though.
 
God is truly omniscient and outside of time, so let’s dispense with your second possibility right away.

Concerning the first, there is no true paradox. Creating a creature whom God knows will choose to become a devil does not constitute the creation of evil. God is the source of all being, but evil is a negation and so does not have God for its source. In particular evil, at least as we usually use the word, is a deprivation of a due good. It comes about when a creature with free will chooses to rebel against God.

Could God have prevented this evil? Of course he could have. But he also could have, and evidently did, allow it to come about in order to draw a greater good from it. Such an action (or inaction) is highly mysterious when we personally cannot see what that greater good is or why it would be worth the evil, but is not inconsistent with a perfectly good God.
 
Before / After
Left / right
Up / Down
Forward / Backwards.

These are the 4 dimensions we perceive in our physical universe.

God is outside this universe and is not constrained by it’s dimensions.
Therefore he is not constrained by the arrow of time as we humans perceive it.

Consider Jesus:
Eternally begotten of the Father.
The Firstborn of all Creation
In the Beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word as God. Through Him all things were made.

Yet the conception of Jesus is known to have occurred in a body of a young Jewish girl approx 2000 years ago. How could that have been “Before Creation”, which had occurred circa 14 billion years earlier:

Answer: because God is Outside this Universe Time is a physical dimension of this universe, and flows at a rate determined by the size of the (Expanding) universe, and by the velocity of the specific matter by which time is being judged (i.e. at velocities approaching the speed of light, time slows asymptotically to a stand-still, therefore from the point of view of an observer sitting on a photon, there is no time. he is simultaneously present in the entire line in which the photon is passing. No time passes on the photon between it’s release from a star (or light bulb) and it’s arrival at it’s destination wherever in the universe that is. The observer external to that point observes the photon passing through the space time continuum at a defined rate.
 
Aelred_Minor said:
God is truly omniscient and outside of time, so let’s dispense with your second possibility right away.

Concerning the first, there is no true paradox. Creating a creature whom God knows will choose to become a devil does not constitute the creation of evil. God is the source of all being, but evil is a negation and so does not have God for its source. In particular evil, at least as we usually use the word, is a deprivation of a due good. It comes about when a creature with free will chooses to rebel against God.

Could God have prevented this evil? Of course he could have. But he also could have, and evidently did, allow it to come about in order to draw a greater good from it. Such an action (or inaction) is highly mysterious when we personally cannot see what that greater good is or why it would be worth the evil, but is not inconsistent with a perfectly good God.
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Thank you for saying what I wished to say in a way far superior to my writing abilities.
👍
 
Simply stated,

if God foresees that Harry will turn evil and be damned,
can he prevent that from happening by not creating Harry?

No. If Harry never exists God can’t know what would have happened to him. So we have a logical inconsistency.
Not knowing what would have happened to Harry is not a limitation on God’s omniscience. He knows all that’s knowable. What would have happened to a man who never exists is not knowable. Of course, God knows all the possibilities, but possibilities are not actualities and only actualities can be known,
 
empther said:
Simply stated,

if God foresees that Harry will turn evil and be damned,
can he prevent that from happening by not creating Harry?

No. If Harry never exists God can’t know what would have happened to him. So we have a logical inconsistency.
Not knowing what would have happened to Harry is not a limitation on God’s omniscience. He knows all that’s knowable. What would have happened to a man who never exists is not knowable. Of course, God knows all the possibilities, but possibilities are not actualities and only actualities can be known,
Click to expand...
I take it you are not a Molinist. 😃
 
Bahman said:
  1. God know the fate of an creature.
  2. God create a creature.
  3. The creature turns into devil.
  4. God created a devil (since it knew its final destiny).
Click to expand...
False deduction! Fore-knowledge does not entail causation.
 
Aelred_Minor said:
God is truly omniscient and outside of time, so let’s dispense with your second possibility right away.

Concerning the first, there is no true paradox. Creating a creature whom God knows will choose to become a devil does not constitute the creation of evil. God is the source of all being, but evil is a negation and so does not have God for its source. In particular evil, at least as we usually use the word, is a deprivation of a due good. It comes about when a creature with free will chooses to rebel against God.

Could God have prevented this evil? Of course he could have. But he also could have, and evidently did, allow it to come about in order to draw a greater good from it. Such an action (or inaction) is highly mysterious when we personally cannot see what that greater good is or why it would be worth the evil, but is not inconsistent with a perfectly good God.
Click to expand...
First, what do you mean with rebelling against God? To me this concept is completely misleading as God is omnipotent and is able to switch off all creations in one instant!

Second, if there was a reason behind creation of devil then that means there should be a good reason behind creation of devil since God is good. I mean the creation wouldn’t be complete without them. In fact I could agree that there is a good reason behind creation of devil as we could not possibly comprehend bad without good and vise versa. So now it raises the following question that why God should punish devils as there was a good reason behind the creation of them.

Third, how possibly a creature avoid from turning to devil at the specific moment, conditioning that God knows it. I mean there are two feasible scenario for this, 1) creature does what God knows, turning to devil since it could not do otherwise and therefore has no free will at the moment, 2) the creature does otherwise and dose not turns into a devil meaning that the creature acts against God omniscience.

Forth, why we should go through the process of suffering, being in state of nature, conditioning that God is omniscience. God knows who would turn to devil and good so it could create heaven and hell following with creation of creatures, then send them to heaven and hell depending on whether they are good or devil. Simple plan.
 
empther said:
Simply stated,

if God foresees that Harry will turn evil and be damned,
can he prevent that from happening by not creating Harry?

No. If Harry never exists God can’t know what would have happened to him. So we have a logical inconsistency.
Not knowing what would have happened to Harry is not a limitation on God’s omniscience. He knows all that’s knowable. What would have happened to a man who never exists is not knowable. Of course, God knows all the possibilities, but possibilities are not actualities and only actualities can be known,
Click to expand...
So you agree with the second scenario. Don’t you? Remember that this means that God has no plan for its creation and creatures within. This however is not anomaly free as I stated.
 
tonyrey said:
False deduction! Fore-knowledge does not entail causation.
Click to expand...
So you have to either agree on the second scenario or accept that the creature, who was supposed to turn into devil, could stay good until eternity. This is however contradictory with the assumption of God’s omniscience.
 
I just realized that I have a broken key on this laptop-- I will substitute a “K” or "S"for it here. Yes I Kan spell–usually! LOL!

This diskussion reminded me of a male family member with 5 kids, the youngest a set of twins born over 3 months prematurely, hospitalized over 4 months–fighting for their very lives. The little boy twin ( fraternal–a girl and boy) started out with “short gut syndrom” and wore a kolostomy bag for over a year until old enough to have it reversed at 18 months. He almost died at the time. His little tummy looks like a roadmap, and he’s also nearly blind and wears thikk glasses. Add to that,this man was penniless after the wife had an affair and divorsed him . The egg donor never paid a penny of support.His older daughter got into drugs, ended up in a juvie jail at 15 and upon her release promptly got pregnant. The man ended up with full kustody of all 5 kids, as their mother wanted to be free and rid of them all. He was fired from his job after his auto broke down, drifted from job to job trying to find a permanent one and at one point worked as a repairman all day and delivered pizzas at night to make ends meet. Every time he almost got things under kontrol, one of the twins got hospitalized, resulting in his missing work and getting fired again. This went on for years. Finally he found himself jobless and on welfare. About 3 years ago, the boy twin went to a swim birthday party, fell unseen into the pool and was found nearly dead at the bottom. He spent weeks in the hospital in grave shape, lived, but is now physikally weak, tires easilly, and so on. I know–it almost sounds like the story of Job in the bible–but I swear it’s true.

Anyway, I spoke with the Dad awhile ago. He said in disgust that he quit believing in God-- that a good and just God, wouldn’t be so kruel to inosent kids or adults who were just trying to get by and do right. He raged that God shouldn’t allow kids to suffer so. As a parting shot he insisted that the fakt we read almost daily about some pervert kidnapping and raping a kid, or like a a few years ago, burying a kid alive under a doorstep proved God didn’t exist. Obviously, he was hurt and distraught. SO,this is what I told him. I hope I am right. I told him that God doesn’t do bad things to people of any age. He gives us all free will though and, additionally, told us that we must suffer while on earth. He never promised us a free ride or that it would be easy. I told him that we must first realize that, if we believe in God, then death is NOT the worst thing that would befall a person–adult or kid. A little one who dies is spared 60 or 70 years of trial on earth and is immediately happy with God in heaven! It is the relatives left behind who suffer. I reminded him that Jesus–the only truly blameless human ever-- allowed even his own Mother to suffer having to see Him die by krusifixion (UGH! I HATE this broken key thing–sorry) and Jesus’ death was more painful and demeaning even than being buried alive! God has never asked us for more than He himself endured, but we all have free will. Every man, woman and kid is judged by God at death. God may have worse punishment in mind for a torturer and murderer of a kid than what we mortals would hand out. I told him that an adulterous wife who left a good marriage and deserted 5 kids would have to explain it to God one day. All of us will have to answer to God about how we spent the life that He gave us. Jesus had a very profound love for kids. I really wouldn’t want to have to be in the person’s shoes who stands before God either having deserted a family of kids or worse if I had tortured and murdered a kid. I also told him that his finansial issues were God’s way of testing him and allowing him to grow in grase and wisdom and for others on earth to see Jesus in him and his little ones and to show love and generosity by assisting. Those who did so would be rewarded. Those who failed would have to answer when Jesus says that He doesn’t know them as to why they just stood by observing a family in a desperate situation. Frankly, the man I speak of is my oldest son. We have helped him as best we were able both with $$ and emotional support for years. We are now in our 60’s with no money to retire on, having more or less raised 10 kids–first our own 5 kids and then 5 grandkids. I am ill and as is my husband. Yet we will never be able to slow down in working. Yet, I am thankful that God saw fit to let us live long enough to have been able to help when he needed us. I am sad to say that while my son is now remarried and his finanshal situation is working out, he still questions God’s justise. I pray for him daily. If any of you have time after trudging through this awful, misspelled post, I’d be thankful you would whisper a prayer for all us. SO, what’s my point in all this? As I told my son, God knows in advanse, what our lives will be–but He doesn’t pre-ordain things. He gives all free will. Sin is responsible for the pain and misery we experiense in life-- be it our own sins or Adam and Eve’s sin. God doesn’t usually intervene in things like a man torturing and murdering a kid–but the kid is rewarded with life in a far better plase than here. The one doing a terrible thing must answer for it. God is just and wishes salvation for us all. Part of earning salvation is suffering through our lot in life. Fortunate are those whose “sentense” here is only 8 or 10 years or less! God is just. He rewards in the next life our earthly good works and punishes our evil ones. He knows before hand the path we will take, but gives us free will to walk that path. Sometimes we see evil in a person here on earth and wonder why God allowed a person or situation to exist. We should remember, that if God made every person or situation here good, then nobody would experiense trials we must go through to earn our heavenly reward. I hope I stated it right!:sad_yes:
 
Starrsmother said:
… He knows before hand the path we will take, but gives us free will to walk that path. Sometimes we see evil in a person here on earth and wonder why God allowed a person or situation to exist. We should remember, that if God made every person or situation here good, then nobody would experiense trials we must go through to earn our heavenly reward. I hope I stated it right!:sad_yes:
Click to expand...
Thank you very much for sharing his/your story with us. I wish the best for you and your friend. First I wish for friend hope and strength in life and for you love and joy.

I am not Christian but I am aware of Jesus teaching and story.
 
Bahman said:
Thank you very much for sharing his/your story with us. I wish the best for you and your friend. First I wish for friend hope and strength in life and for you love and joy.

I am not Christian but I am aware of Jesus teaching and story.
Click to expand...
As I said, the “friend” is my oldest son. He’s had a lot of hard breaks in his life (the woman he married first being rotten break #1)–but I keep trying to pull him away from the edge of bitterness or feeling sorry for himself–as I don’t think that self pity is very helpful to anyone!👍 (sigh)
 
Bahman said:
I had a few discussions with other friends on different threads about good, evil, creation and God and I was not satisfied with their answers. I think it is crucial to sped sometimes to discuss the issue in different thread. The main question is:

When does God knows the fate of a creation (a creature for example to simplify the problem)?
Click to expand...
God is outside of time and sees all of creation at once. Every moment since the creation of the world and its end is present to him “now”. Thus, he is infinitely knowledgable of the past, present and future.
 
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