question on abortion

[kaymart]

mikew262:

This is a very tough question. The baby has commited no crime. Again, with very few exceptions, I oppose abortion as much as the next person. However, for instance, when it comes down to a wife/mother or the baby, the medical establishment asks for a choice and the father/husband has to choose or both will die, I cannot fault the husband for choosing his wife. As far as aborting fetuses after a violent rape or incest, I am torn on that. I certainly would insist it should be done within 6 weeks after conception, but I know that offers no comfort to no-exception pro-lifers.

Mike, not to start a fight with you, it is not my intention, but I was that woman on the table almost 18 years ago. (I’ve posted about this before) We saved our son, I nearly died an emergency hystrecetomy was performed. My husband and I both agreed that no matter what (even though 2 little ones of our own and a baby sister I was raising at home) that this is the only thing we could live with. Thankfully my life and my son’s were spared. Because we don’t know God’s plan for us, what if I aborted him? Although I was told I should, There would not be a reason would there? Because he and I are here today.

 

[mikew262]

kaymart:

Mike, not to start a fight with you, it is not my intention, but I was that woman on the table almost 18 years ago. (I’ve posted about this before) We saved our son, I nearly died an emergency hystrecetomy was performed. My husband and I both agreed that no matter what (even though 2 little ones of our own and a baby sister I was raising at home) that this is the only thing we could live with. Thankfully my life and my son’s were spared. Because we don’t know God’s plan for us, what if I aborted him? Although I was told I should, There would not be a reason would there? Because he and I are here today.

No fight. You 2 bravely made your decision and it worked out for the best. You obviously made the right one and God Bless you for it. However, if another couple chose differently, I could not find fault. In fact, I would pity them because it is something they would have to live with the rest of their lives.

 

[kaymart]

mikew262:

No fight. You 2 bravely made your decision and it worked out for the best. You obviously made the right one and God Bless you for it. However, if another couple chose differently, I could not find fault. In fact, I would pity them because it is something they would have to live with the rest of their lives.

True, everyone has to make his/her own peace with it, I am not to judge, God will. This is just something my husband and I personally could not live with and our choice was to Pray and Put it in God’s hands.

 

[estesbob]

mikew262:

While I commend your consistant stance on capital punishment and abortion, to say opposing abortion and supporting capital punishment is in no way hypocritical is laughable.

As some of your fellow posters have said, killing is killing. Sure, I agree, executing a mass murderer morally seems easier than aborting babies, but again, killing is killing.

Cmon, you seem like a pretty smart guy, think this through.

Church teacning is crystal clear on both issue-Captal Punishment has been accepted by the Church for 2,000 years-Abortion has never been approved of by the Church. There simply is no comparison or moral equivalency betweeen the two.

Personally I cant reconcile it BUT as a Catholic i am not about to call someone a hypocrite who is following Catholic Teachings

 

[vluvski]

Writer:

I am also in opposition to abortion, but is an 11 year-old physicaly able to carry a child? If the mother’s life in danger, doesn’t the Church permit emergency measures? Just curious…I don’t remember reading anything detailing the Church’s position if the mother’s life is determined to be in grave danger. Could someone enlighten me?

According to snopes, the youngest “woman” to give birth was age 5.

These “emergency measures” are in fact permissible, but cannot include direct abortion. I am not fully clear on what is considered a direct abortion, but the idea is that if the death of the child is an “unfortunate side effect,” then the operation falls under the principle of the double effect. The most common example is an ectopic pregnancy.

 

[estesbob]

mikew262:

Many Catholics do not agree with 100% of the church’s teachings. Many of the teachings are man-made not God-made. Each person has (or should have ) a personal relationship with God.

I use by Christian Catholic faith as a guide to live my life, but most important is my personal relationship with God. He is my life’s ultimate judge. He is the person I seek my guidance from.

Just a slight correction-many people who CALL themsleves Catholics do not agree 100% with Catholic teachings.

Scripture and 2,000 years of tradition and teaching makes it clear that our persoanl relatiosnhip with God comes THROUGH the Church. The Protestant notion that we are all supposed to go out and establish our own “personal” relationship pretty much negates the need for a Church. Since Christ took great pains to found our Church I dont think bypassing it is the way to go.

 

[mikew262]

estesbob:

Church teacning is crystal clear on both issue-Captal Punishment has been accepted by the Church for 2,000 years-Abortion has never been approved of by the Church. There simply is no comparison or moral equivalency betweeen the two.

Personally I cant reconcile it BUT as a Catholic i am not about to call someone a hypocrite who is following Catholic Teachings

I probably won’t call anybody a hypocrite either, I try to respect people’s views, unless provoked otherwise. However, to advocate killing in one sense, yet condemn it in another does seem rather odd.

 

[mikew262]

estesbob:

Just a slight correction-many people who CALL themsleves Catholics do not agree 100% with Catholic teachings.

Scripture and 2,000 years of tradition and teaching makes it clear that our persoanl relatiosnhip with God comes THROUGH the Church. The Protestant notion that we are all supposed to go out and establish our own “personal” relationship pretty much negates the need for a Church. Since Christ took great pains to found our Church I dont think bypassing it is the way to go.

Well, I disagree on several points, but this is way off thread, so I’m not going to pursue it.

As I’ve mentioned on other threads where you and I have “done battle”, I suspect we are in agreement on 90% of the issues, but violently disagree on the other 10%.

If everybody always agreed with everybody else, it would truly be a boring world to live in.

 

[luvmykids]

mikew262:

Many Catholics do not agree with 100% of the church’s teachings. Many of the teachings are man-made not God-made. Each person has (or should have ) a personal relationship with God.

I use by Christian Catholic faith as a guide to live my life, but most important is my personal relationship with God. He is my life’s ultimate judge. He is the person I seek my guidance from.

Exactly what teachings do you think are man-made? Do you actually believe that the teaching on abortion is man-made? Thou shall not kill is one of the 10 commandments.

 

[luvmykids]

mikew262:

I probably won’t call anybody a hypocrite either, I try to respect people’s views, unless provoked otherwise. However, to advocate killing in one sense, yet condemn it in another does seem rather odd.

These people have murdered other human beings. Committed violent crimes and continue to be a threat to our society. I do not believe in capital punishment, but I do not think you can compare it to killing an innocent human being.

 

[mikew262]

luvmykids:

These people have murdered other human beings. Committed violent crimes and continue to be a threat to our society. I do not believe in capital punishment, but I do not think you can compare it to killing an innocent human being.

I feel capital punishment has it’s place for the most heinous of crimes, however when it comes down to it, they are both killing. One is just easier to accept than the other.

 

[mikew262]

luvmykids:

Exactly what teachings do you think are man-made? Do you actually believe that the teaching on abortion is man-made? Thou shall not kill is one of the 10 commandments.

No, that one is God made. However, the church has allowed killing based on certain circumstances for centuries.

Again, it seems some of you feel that I think abortion is ok. Its not ok, but under a very narrowly defined set of circumstances, it might be considered IMO.

 

[sadie2723]

mikew262:

I feel capital punishment has it’s place for the most heinous of crimes, however when it comes down to it, they are both killing. One is just easier to accept than the other.

I think that is because a person can make an arguement for CP. A person commits a heinous crime and they face death because of it.

The problem with abortion is that no such arguement can be made. The baby did nothing to deserve to face death. The only reason the baby is killed is to make life more convenient for the mother.

I just hope that when abortion finally is outlawed that we also get state sponsered legislation making it equivilant to murder. People who do this should face the same penalty as those who pull a gun and kill someone…in both cases, they made a choice …the wrong one.

Brad

 

[johnq]

mikew262:

Many Catholics do not agree with 100% of the church’s teachings. Many of the teachings are man-made not God-made. Each person has (or should have ) a personal relationship with God.

I use by Christian Catholic faith as a guide to live my life, but most important is my personal relationship with God. He is my life’s ultimate judge. He is the person I seek my guidance from.

mike :tiphat:

I can see where you are coming from. How is your knowledge of Jesus and His relationship with the Church? I have argued this same point many times with friends of mine. I believed certain teachings would change and the only reason the Church did not already change them was because of Her size and slow movement to act. “Just give us time, the Church will change.”

Then I saw this scripture passage.

Eph.5
23] For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.
24] As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands.
25] Husbands, love your wives,** as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her**,
26] that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
27] that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
28] Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
29] For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, **as Christ does the church,
**30] because we are members of his body.
31] “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and **the two shall become one flesh.” **
32] This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church;

I then understood that the Church cannot error on teachings of faith and morals because Jesus sanctified her to be “without spot or wrinkle … that she might be holy and without blemish.” Jesus has a bride and the two became one flesh. WOW! I immediately knew the Church had a divine nature and I was attacking it. :banghead: My personal relationship with God rejected the guidance of the Church. It was very hard for me to admit that rejecting the teachings of the Church is the same as rejecting Jesus.

Mike, please consider what role God has for the Church and how that affects our personal relationship with our Judge.

 

[mikew262]

johnq:

mike :tiphat:

I can see where you are coming from. How is your knowledge of Jesus and His relationship with the Church? I have argued this same point many times with friends of mine. I believed certain teachings would change and the only reason the Church did not already change them was because of Her size and slow movement to act. “Just give us time, the Church will change.”

Then I saw this scripture passage.

Eph.5
23] For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.
24] As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands.
25] Husbands, love your wives,** as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her**,
26] that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
27] that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
28] Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
29] For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, **as Christ does the church,
**30] because we are members of his body.
31] “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and **the two shall become one flesh.” **
32] This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church;

I then understood that the Church cannot error on teachings of faith and morals because Jesus sanctified her to be “without spot or wrinkle … that she might be holy and without blemish.” Jesus has a bride and the two became one flesh. WOW! I immediately knew the Church had a divine nature and I was attacking it. :banghead: My personal relationship with God rejected the guidance of the Church. It was very hard for me to admit that rejecting the teachings of the Church is the same as rejecting Jesus.
Mike, please consider what role God has for the Church and how that affects our personal relationship with our Judge.

I wouldn’t say I reject any church teachings, I just don’t agree with some of them. BTW, I would never reject Jesus, but I may have issues with some church doctrine that clearly was developed by man.

However, I did read your scripture passage and it is food for thought. BTW, I appreciate the chartiable way you have tried to steer me the “right” way. Others should take note (me as well).

 

[mikew262]

sadie2723:

I think that is because a person can make an arguement for CP. A person commits a heinous crime and they face death because of it.

The problem with abortion is that no such arguement can be made. The baby did nothing to deserve to face death. The only reason the baby is killed is to make life more convenient for the mother.

I just hope that when abortion finally is outlawed that we also get state sponsered legislation making it equivilant to murder. People who do this should face the same penalty as those who pull a gun and kill someone…in both cases, they made a choice …the wrong one.

Brad

One can also make an argument against CP: Who are we to decide who is to live and who dies? Argument against Abortion: Who are we to decide that a fetus (baby) should die?

Sounds pretty similiar doesn’t?

 

[sadie2723]

mikew262:

One can also make an argument against CP: Who are we to decide who is to live and who dies? Argument against Abortion: Who are we to decide that a fetus (baby) should die?

Sounds pretty similiar doesn’t?

Here in this world, you can make any arguements that you like…the next…well…that is another story all together.

Still, I will say that your point is well taken. I can see the arguement from both sides on CP. On abortion, I can’t. Sorry.

Brad

 

[mikew262]

sadie2723:

Here in this world, you can make any arguements that you like…the next…well…that is another story all together.

Still, I will say that your point is well taken. I can see the arguement from both sides on CP. On abortion, I can’t. Sorry.

Brad

Fair enough.

 

[fix]

mikew262:

One can also make an argument against CP: Who are we to decide who is to live and who dies? Argument against Abortion: Who are we to decide that a fetus (baby) should die?

Sounds pretty similiar doesn’t?

It seems to me that they are very different cases. Generally, I am against capital punishment, but in that case the state has the authority derived from God to act to end the life of a guilty person. We each as individuals have no authority to do such a thing. Direct abortion is always the taking of innocent life or murder. Not all killing is murder and not all killing is unjust. Self defense and capital punishment may both be killing, but both are licit and not murder.

 

[vluvski]

Regarding those of us who are pro-life but pause at these suggested exceptions, it is important to acknowledge that the abortion is STILL GRAVELY WRONG.
The difference is that the situation could arguably impair the ability of the parents or the child to give ‘full and deliberate consent’ in making this decision.
Please do not confuse the objective moral gravity of any abortion with the ability of those making a decision to do so freely under what is an unimaginable amount of stress and pain.