question on abortion

[ElizabethAnne]

mikew262,

I’m curious as to which Church teachings you feel are “clearly” developed by man. Honestly, I don’t see any. Also, how do you determine which ones are indeed divinely inspired and which are not?

God bless.

 

[mikew262]

fix:

It seems to me that they are very different cases. Generally, I am against capital punishment, but in that case the state has the authority derived from God to act to end the life of a guilty person. We each as individuals have no authority to do such a thing. Direct abortion is always the taking of innocent life or murder. Not all killing is murder and not all killing is unjust. Self defense and capital punishment may both be killing, but both are licit and not murder.

Depends upon your perspective I guess.

 

[mikew262]

vluvski:

Regarding those of us who are pro-life but pause at these suggested exceptions, it is important to acknowledge that the abortion is STILL GRAVELY WRONG.
The difference is that the situation could arguably impair the ability of the parents or the child to give ‘full and deliberate consent’ in making this decision.
Please do not confuse the objective moral gravity of any abortion with the ability of those making a decision to do so freely under what is an unimaginable amount of stress and pain.

Good point.

 

[mikew262]

ElizabethAnne:

mikew262,

I’m curious as to which Church teachings you feel are “clearly” developed by man. Honestly, I don’t see any. Also, how do you determine which ones are indeed divinely inspired and which are not?

God bless.

Thats a topic for a whole other thread, and I’m too mentally tired from work and posting in this thread to get into it. Suffice to say it’s been discussed before in other threads on this forum.

 

[mlchance]

mikew262:

In your opinion.

It’s my opinion that abortion kills unborn children? Interesting.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[AugustineFL]

mikew262:

I consider my personal relationship with God above all else, including any church teachings. Don’t you?

You lie. If you go against church teachings then you don’t give a damn about your relationship with God.

If you love me, keep my commandments.
–St. John xiv, 15

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them; he it is that loveth me. And he that loveth me, shall be loved of my Father:and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
–St. John xiv,21

Thou knowest the commandments: Thou shalt not kill: Thou shalt not commit adultery…
–St. Luke xviii, 20a

For there shall be a time, when theywill not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: and will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables.
–II Timothy iv, 3&4

Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.
–II Peter i, 21

From what you say I would honestly say you are not Catholic. No Catholic can think that he can disobey Church teaching and have a relationship with God. To violate Church teaching is to be in mortal sin which is to reject God and sever your relationship with him. Do know that you are in my prayers.

 

[AugustineFL]

mikew262:

Ok Rand, losing your wife or the baby. What is your choice?

I’ll tell you mine. I thought about this when my wife was pregnant the last three times. Every time I know that I would have let my wife die. If I only had the baby to show I know that she will live on in that child. If I loose both of them than I know my wife was a hero for giving her all, her life, to try to give another person a chance at LIFE.

Sound familar? Jesus, our saviour, gave his life for you and me. We are called to do no less than he did.

Greater love has no man than to lay down his life for another.

Yes, I would weep and mourn the loss of my wife. But I would not mind one bit that she gave her life to try to give life to our child. I would thank God for the blessing that he gave us in that little one that we created with him; even if both my wife and my child died.

 

[AugustineFL]

mikew262:

Ok, folks, anybody here believe in capital punishment? If so, that’s murder isn’t?

Ever heard of innocent life?

A murderer isn’t innocent life.

Their can be arguments against capital punishment; but the basic fact i that it is NOT the same thing as murder.

I would also kill someone that I saw as an immanent threat against my family. I wouldn’t hesitate to kill someone that dared threatened the life or safety of my children. To clarify; I would have to truly believe a threat existed where my delay in action would be harmful to my family…I wouldn’t just on a whim of rage take such action.

 

[AugustineFL]

mikew262:

As some of your fellow posters have said, killing is killing. Sure, I agree, executing a mass murderer morally seems easier than aborting babies, but again, killing is killing.

Your right. Killing is killing. But not all killing is murder.

 

[Myangel]

Catholic mommy:

As I said, I’m glad this is a hypothetical situation in my life. I haven’t helped, assisted or encouraged anyone get an abortion. Therefore, I haven’t committed a mortal sin.

So, enough telling me I’m a murderer and I’m going to hell.

You are either Pro Choice or Pro Life in ALL circumstances, there is no in between. Anyone who would agree to an abortion, in ANY circumstance, is in danger of mortal sin!

 

[johnq]

mikew262:

I wouldn’t say I reject any church teachings, I just don’t agree with some of them. BTW, I would never reject Jesus, but I may have issues with some church doctrine that clearly was developed by man.

Hey Mike,

Let me try to understand what you are saying here. “I, Mikew, never reject any divinely inspired Church teaching; however, man-made teachings I may or may not give my assent.” Would this be a good Mikew quote?

Mike, if you found out that something you believed to be a man-made teaching was actually divinely inspired, would you give your assent to that teaching? Actually, you already answered the question. “I would never reject Jesus.” Awesome quote BTW, I hope some day I can say the same.

Remember how Ehp 5 says that Christ is one with the Church, in other words, the Church is the “spotless” bride of Christ? Do me a favor, in the following encyclical, take out the words “the Church” and insert Christ.

Familiaris Consortio, Apostolic Exhortation on the Role of the Christian Family
in the Modern World

Thus the Church condemns as a grave offence against human dignity and justice all those activities of governments or other public Authorities which attempt to limit in any way the freedom of couples in deciding about children. Consequently any violence applied by such authorities in favor of contraception or, still worse, of sterilization and procured abortion, must be altogether condemned: and forcefully rejected. Likewise to be denounced as gravely unjust are cases where, in international relations, economic help given for the advancement of peoples is made conditional on programs of contraception, sterilization and procured abortion.

Did you see any exceptions? Christ, through His spotless bride, the Church, has clearly spoken. Will you serve Christ’s bride with obedience or will you not?

May the Holy Spirit, through the pillar and foundation truth, guide you to the right decision.

 

[johnq]

More teachings from the “spotless, bride of Christ” the Church.

CASTI CONNUBII

ENCYCLICAL LETTER

Pope Pius XI
December 31, 1930

****Christian Marriage

1. But another very grave crime is to be noted, Venerable Brethren, which regards the taking of the life of the offspring hidden in the mother’s womb. Some wish it to be allowed and left to the will of the father or the mother; others say it is unlawful unless there are weighty reasons which they call by the name of medical, social, or eugenic “indication.” Because this matter falls under the penal laws of the State by which the destruction of the offspring begotten but unborn is forbidden, these people demand that the “indication,” which in one form or another they defend, be recognized as such by the public law and in no way penalized. There are those, moreover, who ask that the public authorities provide aid for these death-dealing operations, a thing which, sad to say, everyone knows is of very frequent occurrence in some places.
2. As to the “medical and therapeutic indication” to which, using their own words, we have made reference, Venerable Brethren, however much we may pity the mother whose health and even life is gravely imperiled in the performance of the duty allotted to her by nature, nevertheless what could ever be a sufficient reason for excusing in any way the direct murder of the innocent? This is precisely what we are dealing with here. Whether inflicted upon the mother or upon the child, **it is against the precept of God and the law of nature: “Thou shalt not kill.”**50 The life of each is equally sacred, and no one has the power, not even the public authority, to destroy it. It is of no use to appeal to the right of taking away life for here it is a question of the innocent, whereas that right has regard only to the guilty; nor is there here question of defense by bloodshed against an unjust aggressor (for who would call an innocent child an unjust aggressor?); again there is no question here of what is called the “law of extreme necessity” which could never extend to the direct killing of the innocent. Upright and skillful doctors strive most praiseworthily to guard and preserve the lives of both mother and child; on the contrary, those show themselves most unworthy of the noble medical profession who encompass the death of one or the other, through a pretense at practicing medicine or through motives of misguided pity.

…And if the public magistrates not only do not defend them, but by their laws and ordinances betray them to death at the hands of doctors or of others, let them remember that God is the Judge and Avenger of innocent blood which cries from earth to Heaven.53

 

[fix]

mikew262:

Depends upon your perspective I guess.

Nope, it is not a matter of opinion or perspective. It is a matter of truth.

Direct abortion is the taking of innocent life. That is always wrong and we can know that from the natural moral law and this understanding may be deepened by informing out consciences with the truth as taught by Christ through His Church.

 

[mikew262]

AugustineFL:

You lie. If you go against church teachings then you don’t give a damn about your relationship with God.

If you love me, keep my commandments.
–St. John xiv, 15

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them; he it is that loveth me. And he that loveth me, shall be loved of my Father:and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
–St. John xiv,21

Thou knowest the commandments: Thou shalt not kill: Thou shalt not commit adultery…
–St. Luke xviii, 20a

For there shall be a time, when theywill not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: and will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables.
–II Timothy iv, 3&4

Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.
–II Peter i, 21

From what you say I would honestly say you are not Catholic. No Catholic can think that he can disobey Church teaching and have a relationship with God. To violate Church teaching is to be in mortal sin which is to reject God and sever your relationship with him. Do know that you are in my prayers.

I wasn’t going to answer anymore posts because I’ve already stated my position whether anybody else agrees or not, but I couldn’t let this pass. How outrageous of you to make such a claim when you know so little about me. Who are you to judge me about my faith and relationship with God? Shame on you!

BTW, how do you know I’ve violated any church teaching? I’ve never been involved in any abortion!

If you want to disagree with my position on a certain subject, go for it. However, don’t ever question my belief in God or whether I’m a good catholic or not.

BTW, questioning somebody’s belief I think goes against the rules of this board. I hope a moderator is monitoring this.

I commend your devoutness to the Catholic faith, and you may well be a better Catholic than I, but you’ve still got some work to do.

 

[vluvski]

vluvski:

Regarding those of us who are pro-life but pause at these suggested exceptions, it is important to acknowledge that the abortion is STILL GRAVELY WRONG.
The difference is that the situation could arguably impair the ability of the parents or the child to give ‘full and deliberate consent’ in making this decision.
Please do not confuse the objective moral gravity of any abortion with the ability of those making a decision to do so freely under what is an unimaginable amount of stress and pain.

Which, I might add, should give us that much more motivation to NOT make exceptions. It is our duty to align civil laws with the moral code so that law abiding citizens either without moral conviction or of compromised ability to discern will choose to do good through civil obedience even if a moral decision would lead them to a different act.

 

[sadie2723]

mikew262:

I wasn’t going to answer anymore posts because I’ve already stated my position whether anybody else agrees or not, but I couldn’t let this pass. How outrageous of you to make such a claim when you know so little about me. Who are you to judge me about my faith and relationship with God? Shame on you!

BTW, how do you know I’ve violated any church teaching? I’ve never been involved in any abortion!

If you want to disagree with my position on a certain subject, go for it. However, don’t ever question my belief in God or whether I’m a good catholic or not.

BTW, questioning somebody’s belief I think goes against the rules of this board. I hope a moderator is monitoring this.

I commend your devoutness to the Catholic faith, and you may well be a better Catholic than I, but you’ve still got some work to do.

Let’s not debate who is the better Catholic here. I am not doubting the faith of anyone on this forum. I do have a question for Mike, and I do not want to enrage you here. My only question is this…What is your goal in this forum? It seems like, and I may be reaching here, that you would like people to say that abortion should be allowed under certain circumstances. Is that the case? I will note that I do not agree with you, but I still respoect your opinion and I would like some clarification on what you are trying to get to. Thanks.

brad

 

[mikew262]

sadie2723:

Let’s not debate who is the better Catholic here. I am not doubting the faith of anyone on this forum. I do have a question for Mike, and I do not want to enrage you here. My only question is this…What is your goal in this forum? It seems like, and I may be reaching here, that you would like people to say that abortion should be allowed under certain circumstances. Is that the case? I will note that I do not agree with you, but I still respoect your opinion and I would like some clarification on what you are trying to get to. Thanks.

brad

Thank you for your “civil” response. I have no particular goal on this forum except to observe and participate in discussions. In this case, I am not trying to convince people to change their opinions on Abortion; it’s a passionate topic and people obviously have strong feelings about it. I simply expressed my opinion, which some folks were intolerant too.

Somebody mentioned me being a “liberal”. In the political sense, I am not. However, after giving it some thought, in the “catholic sense”, I perhaps lean somewhat to the left, but not overly so. Does this mean I’m a bad Catholic or Christian? No, not in my mind. As you could tell, I highly resented somebody judging me otherwise.

 

[estesbob]

mikew262:

IBTW, questioning somebody’s belief I think goes against the rules of this board. I hope a moderator is monitoring this.

I commend your devoutness to the Catholic faith, and you may well be a better Catholic than I, but you’ve still got some work to do.

Questioning somones beliefs and calling someone a liar are ideed a violation of Forum rules. I see the violator is new-if he sticks around long enough he will learn how to question someones beliefs and call someone a liar without appearing to question their beliefs and call them a liar ! It happens to me a lothttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[mikew262]

estesbob:

Questioning somones beliefs and calling someone a liar are ideed a violation of Forum rules. I see the violator is new-if he sticks around long enough he will learn how to question someones beliefs and call someone a liar without appearing to question their beliefs and call them a liar ! It happens to me a lothttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

You and I “cross swords” alot, but thanks for your support in this instance.

 

[jebojora]

The real problem is the value of life.

It seems that a wanted child is a valuable life and an unwanted child is not. I’m sure we’ve all read articles where doctors have saved, or tried to save, a tiny baby born too early. Babies weighing mere ounces have teams of doctors working to save their lives. At the same time there are doctors busy sucking babies from the wombs of their mothers.

The only difference is…some are wanted and some are not.

I work with a woman who has miscarried 3 times. She cries each time and mourns the loss of her child. There are other mothers who do not want their babies and elect to have them killed.

So the value of life comes down to that. Some people do not want the child of a rapist…so that life is not valuable. Sometimes the mother’s life may be in danger during pregnancy (this is rare with our medical advances) so we can kill the child because the mother is certainly more valuable then the child right? Who makes that call?

We should always choose life because it is a gift from God.

Deuteronomy 30:19-20:

This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.