question on abortion

[mikew262]

Its so easy to condemn when you are looking at it from the outside.

While the whole situation is tragic, I wonder if anybody who has condemned this abortion would think differently if it was their daughter, or themselves if they became pregnant from a violent rape.

As a general rule, I condemn abortion as well, however, in cases like this, I pause.

 

[luvmykids]

mikew262:

Its so easy to condemn when you are looking at it from the outside.

While the whole situation is tragic, I wonder if anybody who has condemned this abortion would think differently if it was their daughter, or themselves if they became pregnant from a violent rape.

As a general rule, I condemn abortion as well, however, in cases like this, I pause.

It is either murder or it isn’t, how is that so hard to understand? Everyone has temptation to sin. This isn’t the only situation where someone may be tempted to sin. It’s like saying, “it’s a sin, but only when it isn’t too difficult to deal with, and I’m really weak. Then I could sin.” That’s being your own god.

 

[jebojora]

Jonah:

Perfect plans for a perfect world…

Maybe I’m cynical because of my job. I see the other side… the not so perfect world. Where a 15 year old girl screams at her baby because he doesn’t sleep through the night. OR a 17 year old mom slaps the babies face for doing a raspberry and she think he is sticking out his tongue. Yeah, and the baby is only 7months old…

But I get off topic

I would not condemn an 11 year old for not wanting to have a rape baby. But I guess she would already be psychologically messed up for life from the rape, what would it matter if she had to go through 9 months of agony, perhaps hate and distress, and surely a c-section.

I’m done.

So when you see a young mother slap a 7 month old baby…you think to yourself, this baby would have been better off dead?

Of course it hurts you to see these things…just the thought of it breaks my heart, but not enough to take away that baby’s life. I know it seems overwhelming and it’s so exhausting to stand up for what is right. I have people say all the time…“do you really think you can end abortion??” You know what, I don’t know…but I do know that no matter what happens I stood up for life.

Seeing the side of life that you do must be difficult. I’m sure it’s frustrating and there is only so much you can do. You must watch as these innocent babies are mistreated by their young mothers…and you don’t want to see this happen. Understandable. But killing the baby is not better.

You cannot know the heart and desire of God. In all things His will be done.

 

[estesbob]

mikew262:

Its so easy to condemn when you are looking at it from the outside.

While the whole situation is tragic, I wonder if anybody who has condemned this abortion would think differently if it was their daughter, or themselves if they became pregnant from a violent rape.

As a general rule, I condemn abortion as well, however, in cases like this, I pause.

Yes the whole thing is tragic-the only thing that can make the whole thisng more tragic isd to add a dead baby to the mix.

With all due repsect Mike the old "easy to condemn when you are looking at it from the outside. " is the same dodge pro-abortion advocates have used for 32 years to rationalize abortion on demand.

 

[Writer]

I am also in opposition to abortion, but is an 11 year-old physicaly able to carry a child? If the mother’s life in danger, doesn’t the Church permit emergency measures? Just curious…I don’t remember reading anything detailing the Church’s position if the mother’s life is determined to be in grave danger. Could someone enlighten me?

 

[estesbob]

Jonah:

Perfect plans for a perfect world…

Maybe I’m cynical because of my job. I see the other side… the not so perfect world. Where a 15 year old girl screams at her baby because he doesn’t sleep through the night. OR a 17 year old mom slaps the babies face for doing a raspberry and she think he is sticking out his tongue. Yeah, and the baby is only 7months old…

But I get off topic

I would not condemn an 11 year old for not wanting to have a rape baby. But I guess she would already be psychologically messed up for life from the rape, what would it matter if she had to go through 9 months of agony, perhaps hate and distress, and surely a c-section.

I’m done.

You know the State needs to look into the hellhole you work at. A place full of teen aged pregnant rape victims who cant bond with their children and where woman physically abuse their children, aparently with no interference form the staff?

If you could email me privately the name of this place ill get CPC to look inot it.

 

[mikew262]

luvmykids:

It is either murder or it isn’t, how is that so hard to understand? Everyone has temptation to sin. This isn’t the only situation where someone may be tempted to sin. It’s like saying, “it’s a sin, but only when it isn’t too difficult to deal with, and I’m really weak. Then I could sin.” That’s being your own god.

I can see you neatly side-stepped my middle paragraph.

 

[mikew262]

estesbob:

With all due repsect Mike the old "easy to condemn when you are looking at it from the outside. " is the same dodge pro-abortion advocates have used for 32 years to rationalize abortion on demand.

Yes, but it still holds true.

BTW, pro-choice does not equal pro-abortion. I get so tired of hearing that! Its just Pro-lifer propaganda. The vast majority I think personally oppose abortion, however they feel the choice shouldn’t be legislated/adjudicated away.

I don’t want to get into a drawn out discussion about pro-life vs. pro-choice philosophies, so as Forrest Gump would say, “that’s all I’ve got to say about that”.

 

[estesbob]

mikew262:

Yes, but it still holds true.

BTW, pro-choice does not equal pro-abortion. I get so tired of hearing that! Its just Pro-lifer propaganda. The vast majority I think personally oppose abortion, however they feel the choice shouldn’t be legislated/adjudicated away.

I don’t want to get into a drawn out discussion about pro-life vs. pro-choice philosophies, so as Forrest Gump would say, “that’s all I’ve got to say about that”.

Of course pro-choice equals pro-abortion. That is the only choice in dipute. No one, for instance, is arguing against a womans choice to have her and her the fathers child. One can rationalize away all sorts of evils-the end result is still the same-the child is dead.

You and Jonah having played the “hit and run” game, can can now go off in a corner and talk about us pro-life propogandists-meanwhile the babies will continue to die.

 

[luvmykids]

mikew262:

I can see you neatly side-stepped my middle paragraph.

Actually, your middle paragraph was exactly what I was addressing in my post.

 

[jebojora]

mikew262:

BTW, pro-choice does not equal pro-abortion.

Yes it does! Saying “I’m against abortion except when…” means you are pro-abortion. It comes down to words. Can someone be murdered a little bit? No!!

When is murder not murder? The main reasons given for abortions is…I’m not ready to have a child or I can’t afford it right now. Horrible excuses used to justify killing babies. The very very few and far between cases as is mentioned in this thread always bring this topic up of an exception. There can be no exception. How can we ever say we know which lives are valuable and which are not? They are all valuable…the mother’s and the baby’s.

Let’s say an 11 year old is raped and becomes pregnant…so someone goes to the elementary school and kill’s the 11 year old’s classmate! It’s no different with abortion. The baby is an innocent victim who has been killed by association.

Pro-Choice = Pro-Abortion!!

 

[mikew262]

estesbob:

Of course pro-choice equals pro-abortion. That is the only choice in dipute. No one, for instance, is arguing against a womans choice to have her and her the fathers child. One can rationalize away all sorts of evils-the end result is still the same-the child is dead.

You and Jonah having played the “hit and run” game, can can now go off in a corner and talk about us pro-life propogandists-meanwhile the babies will continue to die.

Oh brother!

 

[estesbob]

jebojora:

Yes it does! Saying “I’m against abortion except when…” means you are pro-abortion. It comes down to words. Can someone be murdered a little bit? No!!

!!

Back on the early 70s the pro-abortion crowd had a marketing survey done to see how to best present their position.They recognized that selling the diememberment of unborn children was going to be a hard sell. The results of the survey was that they should use the word “ABORTION” as little as possible. They were told that the best way to sell their position was to call it a matter of “choice”.

The MM aids and abetts this farce-note that they always refer to those who favor abortion as pro-chocie and those who oppose aboprtion as anti-abortion or anti choice. They also have convinced the MM to NEVER use the world child or baby-it has to refered to as a fetus until the child is born. This gets carried to ridiculous lenghts as copy editrs furiously change words in stories to nbe n compliance- thus in the NYT a story about popular names for babies becomes one about parents buying books to help name their “fetus”. The worst case was when the lady mudered a pregnant woman and cut her baby out of the womb. The amber alert was delayed some 9 hours becuase it was reported as a kidnapped fetus and only children were eligible for being part of an amber alert!

 

[mikew262]

luvmykids:

Actually, your middle paragraph was exactly what I was addressing in my post.

Really? I don’t think so. You side-stepped it. However, I don’t blame you for doing so. It would be a tough position to be in, to make that kind of decision either for yourself or for your daughter. Having the child quite possibly is the right decision, but I certainly wouldn’t condemn the alternative. Unless you’ve walked in that person’s shoes…

 

[mikew262]

jebojora:

Yes it does! Saying “I’m against abortion except when…” means you are pro-abortion. It comes down to words. Can someone be murdered a little bit? No!!

When is murder not murder? The main reasons given for abortions is…I’m not ready to have a child or I can’t afford it right now. Horrible excuses used to justify killing babies. The very very few and far between cases as is mentioned in this thread always bring this topic up of an exception. There can be no exception. How can we ever say we know which lives are valuable and which are not? They are all valuable…the mother’s and the baby’s.

Let’s say an 11 year old is raped and becomes pregnant…so someone goes to the elementary school and kill’s the 11 year old’s classmate! It’s no different with abortion. The baby is an innocent victim who has been killed by association.

Pro-Choice = Pro-Abortion!!

I disagree, but I’m not going there. Its fruitless to argue the point :banghead:

BTW, just for the record, I abhor abortion as a general rule. However, to save a mother’s life and possibly (I’m torn on this) in the cases of rape or incest, there should be exceptions.

 

[estesbob]

mikew262:

Really? I don’t think so. You side-stepped it. However, I don’t blame you for doing so. It would be a tough position to be in, to make that kind of decision either for yourself or for your daughter. Having the child quite possibly is the right decision, but I certainly wouldn’t condemn the alternative. Unless you’ve walked in that person’s shoes…

It has benn adressed again and again in this thread. What you are promoting is “situation ethics”. Its one of those things that sounds great in theory but falls apart in the real world. Abortion , as our Church teaches so effectively, is an intrinsic evil-they are no “situations” where it is acceptable. As I said before one can rationaliz all sorts of evils-the end result is still a dead baby.

 

[estesbob]

mikew262:

I disagree, but I’m not going there. Its fruitless to argue the point :banghead:

BTW, just for the record, I abhor abortion as a general rule. However, to save a mother’s life and possibly (I’m torn on this) in the cases of rape or incest, there should be exceptions.

If you say so-once you start dismissing those of us who have poured our heart and souls into this issue as “pro-life propogandists” it hard to accept you really feel that way.

 

[luvmykids]

mikew262:

Really? I don’t think so. You side-stepped it. However, I don’t blame you for doing so. It would be a tough position to be in, to make that kind of decision either for yourself or for your daughter. Having the child quite possibly is the right decision, but I certainly wouldn’t condemn the alternative. Unless you’ve walked in that person’s shoes…

Ummm, yeah really…Didn’t you get it? It is either murder or it isn’t, how is that so hard to understand? Everyone has temptation to sin. This isn’t the only situation (you know, the one in which my daughter or myself were raped and became pregnant.) where someone may be tempted to sin. It’s like saying, “it’s a sin, but only when it isn’t too difficult to deal with, and I’m really weak. Then I could sin.” That’s being your own god.

You see, doing the right thing isn’t always easy, but it is necessary.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

mikew262:

Really? I don’t think so. You side-stepped it. However, I don’t blame you for doing so. It would be a tough position to be in, to make that kind of decision either for yourself or for your daughter. Having the child quite possibly is the right decision, but I certainly wouldn’t condemn the alternative. Unless you’ve walked in that person’s shoes…

Peace be with you!

I have never walked in Ted Bundy’s shoes. I have never walked in Charles Manson’s shoes. I have never walked in Hitler’s shoes. Neither have you, but I guarantee you would condemn what they did. You don’t have to “walk in someone’s shoes” to know that what they are doing or did is wrong.

A friend of mine (I’ve know him for about 7 years) has two children and he is not married (no, I don’t approve of this, but he is still my friend). He loves both of his children. I only know the mother of one of the children and she loves their son very much. Only my friend is working and he does construction work and doesn’t get paid very much for it. The mother stays home with their son. This couple would have been the perfect “candidates” for abortion because they are unmarried and not in a great financial situation. But they are accepting what happened and it is obvious both of them are very glad to have the child. My friend’s father, who is also a very good friend of mine, doesn’t approve of this (sex outside of marriage) but he still loves his grandchildren and would have never even suggested abortion.

So no, I have not personally walked in someone’s shoes that is in a situation that pro-choicers would say needs an abortion. But, I have not walked in a serial killer’s or a rapist’s shoes either. I can still condemn what they did as evil, just as I can condemn abortion as evil. I don’t NEED to walk in their shoes to say that something violates God’s law. God’s law was not meant to apply only to certain situations.

In Christ,
Rand

 

[mikew262]

estesbob:

If you say so-once you start dismissing those of us who have poured our heart and souls into this issue as “pro-life propogandists” it hard to accept you really feel that way.

Dismiss? I did no such thing; at least I didn’t intend too. I respect your views. This is a very passionate issue, on both sides. However, my somewhat open-minded point of view on this subject was dismissed as well. I was attacked faster than a “chicken jumping on a worm sandwich”.

I do have an issue with pro-choice equaling pro-abortion. IMO, this is pro-life blabber and is just not true. However, I’m not going to change your mind on that.

I consider myself pro-choice (not pro-abortion) to the extent that I described in my last post (#115), and thats all. For someone to get an abortion simply because it’s not convenient to be pregnant, is truly repugnant and wrong to me.

Condemn if you must.