question on abortion

[ElizabethAnne]

Jonah,

I have read all your posts here and can understand why you feel that an exception should be made about abortion being wrong in the case of a young girl, more specifically your daughter, becoming pregnant as the result of rape.

The problem I see with this exception is that it leads to shaky ground. You have established at least one exception for an 11 year old rape victim. What about a 12 year old? 13? 14?

Would you advise your daughter, who was raped, to have an abortion up until the age of 16 or 18? Older? Younger? When is it “right” and when is it “wrong”?

What if she wasn’t raped? What if she had consensual sex at age 11. Can any 11 year old have consensual sex even if the boy was her age? Would you still advise her to have an abortion? If so, what age would you agree is the correct one to advise her that abortion is wrong?

I’m not asking these questions to have you answer all of them or to make you feel attacked in any way. I would offer that making the exception in one case leads to making exceptions in other cases as well. Abortion then is no longer objectively wrong, but could be right or wrong, depending on the circumstances. That’s relativism.

I would also argue that the time to teach a child that abortion is always morally wrong is when they can understand how precious life in the womb is. My hope would be that any 11 year old would already know that killing her unborn child is wrong.

God bless you.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

kaymart:

The Church’s stand still would remain, you can not kill the baby to save the mother. Suppose it was a Catholic married, 32 year old mother of 4. She committed no sin, if fact she is following the Church’s teachings. With her 5th pregnancy she may die, under no circumstances can she have an abortion even if that means her children will become motherless. It is part of our Teachings. By the Grace of God I, myself am here today, for my last pregnancy was high risk, I too nearly died, I recieved Last Rights, only after my baby was safely born, did they do the emergency surgery to save my life. Now as far as those child molesters go (mind you I live in the State of New Jersey home of Meghan’s Law) these no good you know whats should be locked up with the keys thrown away. BTW around the time little Meghan died two other little girls from Monmouth County NJ (where I live) were raped and killed . They were Amanda from Manalapan and Latasha from Red Bank. I am a very strong believer in Meghan’s Law.

Peace be with you!

It’s not quite that black and white. If an operation is performed to save the mother’s life, and the baby dies as a result of the operation (when every effort has been made to save it as well) then the Church does not condemn that. What the Church condemns is if the operation is performed to abort the baby. But if the doctors try to save both lives and the baby still ends up dying (most likely it would have died anyway at that point) it is not considered murder because they didn’t try to kill the baby.

But on another note, a good friend of our family had a daughter who died because she would not abort her baby. The doctors all told her that was the only way she could live and she wouldn’t do it. I never knew her daughter, but I know the mother and I’ve seen the baby a few times. The girl’s mother told me that while she was in the hospital she had the stigmata. This girl is a saint right now. There is certainly no greater love than to lay down her life for that of her unborn child.

By the way, what is Meghan’s Law?

In Christ,
Rand

 

[kaymart]

Rand Al'Thor:

Peace be with you!

It’s not quite that black and white. If an operation is performed to save the mother’s life, and the baby dies as a result of the operation (when every effort has been made to save it as well) then the Church does not condemn that. What the Church condemns is if the operation is performed to abort the baby. But if the doctors try to save both lives and the baby still ends up dying (most likely it would have died anyway at that point) it is not considered murder because they didn’t try to kill the baby.

But on another note, a good friend of our family had a daughter who died because she would not abort her baby. The doctors all told her that was the only way she could live and she wouldn’t do it. I never knew her daughter, but I know the mother and I’ve seen the baby a few times. The girl’s mother told me that while she was in the hospital she had the stigmata. This girl is a saint right now. There is certainly no greater love than to lay down her life for that of her unborn child.

By the way, what is Meghan’s Law?

In Christ,
Rand

Thank you, I wanted my son to be born no matter what(I knew he was a boy and he was already named) My emergency hysterectomy was perform after my son was safely born, abeit 5 weeks early. He was fine, I was dying. My sadness is I wanted more children, but it wasn’t in God’s Plan. Meghan’s law is the law that says all sex-offenders must register where they live (there are still loop holes) It was named for Little Meghan Kanka (age 7) of Hamilton NJ, she was killed by a repeat sex-offender that lived across the street in a quiet suburban town. In fact, 3 of them lived there. He lured the little girl to see his newborn kittens, there the *******raped and killed her. With this law you can look up in your area on the interent (usually your local Police departments website has the link) and find out if one lives in your area. Of course you can not go after this person, but you can at least tell your children to stay away from Mr. Jones next door, and the neighbors can keep a vigilant eye out. President Clinton sign it into a National Law in the 90’s If my calulations are right Meghan would be around 16 or 17 if she were alive today. I’m no big Clinton fan but I was happy for once he did not listen to the ACLU and other liberals about the right of the rapist, this became Law

 

[Jonah]

God can take the horror of a rape and let it turn into a beautiful child.

All raped victims should be so blessed!

I work in a place where babies are born to raped victims and to sexually abused teens. The mothers are young and ignorant, they have no innate bonding with their babies. Our success rate in teaching the mother to bond with her child is low.

I would never condemn a child for not wanting to go through a pregnancy. Especially if she had no say so in it’s conception.

The church says it’s a sin. Okay… it’s a sin… but I don’t think it’s a sin to have an opnion.

You can rest assured that I don’t go around convincing teens to get abortions, quite the opposite.

 

[mlchance]

Jonah:

The church says it’s a sin. Okay… it’s a sin…

Then conform both your public statements and your actions to the Church’s teaching.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

St. Ignatius of Loyola taught: “sentire cum ecclesia” which means “Think with the Church.” As Catholics, our purpose must be: sentire cum ecclesia.

I pray that Christ give his grace to all those who profess to be Catholic so that they may do just that.

 

[stadre]

Jonah:

I work in a place where babies are born to raped victims and to sexually abused teens. The mothers are young and ignorant, they have no innate bonding with their babies. Our success rate in teaching the mother to bond with her child is low.

I am not surprised that your success rate is low. If the mother can’t bond with her child, why is she not giving the child up for adoption? There is a difference between murdering a child and forcing a rape victim to raise that child. I don’t believe that any one here has suggested that to be the right thing.

 

[kaymart]

stadre:

I am not surprised that your success rate is low. If the mother can’t bond with her child, why is she not giving the child up for adoption? There is a difference between murdering a child and forcing a rape victim to raise that child. I don’t believe that any one here has suggested that to be the right thing.

You beat me to it I was going to say the exact thing. Adoptions should be encouraged more, then teaching them how to bond if they show no interest. I’m 49 and if I got raped (and still able to get pregnant) I honestly don’t know if I could bond with this child as I did with my other children. To expect young girls to do this, of course there would be a high failure rate.

 

[estesbob]

Jonah:

All raped victims should be so blessed!

I work in a place where babies are born to raped victims and to sexually abused teens. The mothers are young and ignorant, they have no innate bonding with their babies. Our success rate in teaching the mother to bond with her child is low.

I would never condemn a child for not wanting to go through a pregnancy. Especially if she had no say so in it’s conception.

The church says it’s a sin. Okay… it’s a sin… but I don’t think it’s a sin to have an opnion.

You can rest assured that I don’t go around convincing teens to get abortions, quite the opposite.

I am active in the Pro-life movement and have been to Seminars all over the country. I consider myself pretty tuned into the whole issue. I have NEVER heard of a place that caters to raped pregnant women-I find it hard to grasp why there would be a need for such a place being there is a miniscule number of woman who would be in need of such a place.

Could you giver us some more information on this place where you work??? From what you describe it sounds like they could use some help working with these women. Frankly it sounds like they may be doing them more harm than good.

 

[jebojora]

I read a post, I think somewhere in these forums, where a man said his wife had been raped…I assume early in their marriage, and she became pregnant as a result. This was the first child in their marriage. He told of how he loves this boy, who is now a young man, and how he can’t imagine life without this child. It’s not even his child. It was such a moving statement.

It can’t be only about the mother. Life begins at conception. The human being a woman carries in her womb is not her possession. He or She is a seperate and unique person with a soul, and that person is created in the image of God. We cannot play God and put a value on that person’s life based on circumstances surrounding that conception.

You cannot qualify murder. It is wrong always without exception.

 

[estesbob]

stadre:

I am not surprised that your success rate is low. If the mother can’t bond with her child, why is she not giving the child up for adoption? There is a difference between murdering a child and forcing a rape victim to raise that child. I don’t believe that any one here has suggested that to be the right thing.

Just a minor quibble. I HATE it when people talk about “giving up” the child for adoption". The preferred term is “placing your child for adoption” It may not seem like a big deal but it is when you are talking to woman faced with this decision.

 

[kaymart]

estesbob:

Just a minor quibble. I HATE it when people talk about “giving up” the child for adoption". The preferred term is “placing your child for adoption” It may not seem like a big deal but it is when you are talking to woman faced with this decision.

That is true you are not giving up as in failure, but placing them in a loving home. “Giving up” is such a negative term. Thank you, for I mistakenly say this too sometimes and I will not ever use that term again either. Thank you for gently pointing this out…Kay

 

[estesbob]

kaymart:

That is true you are not giving up as in failure, but placing them in a loving home. “Giving up” is such a negative term. Thank you, for I mistakenly say this too sometimes and I will not ever use that term again either. Thank you for gently pointing this out…Kay

I have found that the best apporach is to explain to them how God has a plan for all of us and for most men and women that plan is for them to be in a loving family. By placing their child for adoption they can help facilitate Gods plan for an infertile couple.

 

[stadre]

estesbob:

Just a minor quibble. I HATE it when people talk about “giving up” the child for adoption". The preferred term is “placing your child for adoption” It may not seem like a big deal but it is when you are talking to woman faced with this decision.

Thank you for the clarification. I had never thought of it that way, even while going through the adoption process. I will never use that phrase again–you are so right!

 

[vluvski]

Just think of what an amazing witness the young girl could be if properly educated on the issues. How proud she will be when she grows up to know that she endured the suffering, pain, persecution, and emotional nightmare of pregnancy at such a young age through no fault of her own. How happy the adoptive parents would be to have a blessing in their lives. And most importantly, how happy the child will be to be alive!

 

[jebojora]

That’s exactly right vluvski!

We need to focus on God’s will. Not our will. We think it would be horrible for a child to endure a pregnancy…but we don’t know what God will do with that. If we cut that pregnancy short and kill the unborn child…we don’t know what else we’ve aborted. What graces we cut short. What blessings will be missed.

In China women are forced to have abortions, people are financially penalized for having more than one child. Because of their culture, and because they only get one child, most of them want boys. So little baby girls are abandoned or put to death so the parents can try for a boy. This is what happens when man tries to play God.

 

[Jonah]

Perfect plans for a perfect world…

Maybe I’m cynical because of my job. I see the other side… the not so perfect world. Where a 15 year old girl screams at her baby because he doesn’t sleep through the night. OR a 17 year old mom slaps the babies face for doing a raspberry and she think he is sticking out his tongue. Yeah, and the baby is only 7months old…

But I get off topic

I would not condemn an 11 year old for not wanting to have a rape baby. But I guess she would already be psychologically messed up for life from the rape, what would it matter if she had to go through 9 months of agony, perhaps hate and distress, and surely a c-section.

I’m done.

 

[johnq]

Jonah:

I thank God, that He alone knows my heart and I don’t have to explain anything to Him.

Really?

Rom.14

12] So each of us shall give account** of himself to God. **

Rom.3

19] Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and **the whole world may be held accountable to God. **

Matt.12

36] I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render** account** for every careless word they utter;

 

[Verity1]

Jonah:

PSHAW!

HARDLY…

“But I say it from my heart that if my baby girl had been raped and got pregnant at the age of 11, abortion would be an option.”

“I’m don’t believe in killing innocent babies, but”

So you DO believe in killing innocent babies, as an option, yes?

 

[kaymart]

vluvski:

Just think of what an amazing witness the young girl could be if properly educated on the issues. How proud she will be when she grows up to know that she endured the suffering, pain, persecution, and emotional nightmare of pregnancy at such a young age through no fault of her own. How happy the adoptive parents would be to have a blessing in their lives. And most importantly, how happy the child will be to be alive!

That is wondeful. I just can’t get some of the people here. Take a horrible trauma and double it by killing a baby. As horrible as the rape is, I believe there is a reason for everything. There is a reason why this child was concieved, maybe he might do important things, or if not him, his future great-grandchild could be a Great man someday such as President, Pope or find cures for a major disease? or simply to give the a childless couple who have been Praying for years, had their Prayers answered. It’s part of God’s plan and we have to have Faith in it. This world was not meant to be perfect, we all live through our sufferings, large and small. It helps us to grow stronger. Deeper into our Faith and our Love for Jesus when we realize how He suffered for us.