Question on different forms of prayer

[Oumashta]

I’ve heard a lot of “centering prayer” “mental prayer” and “contemplative prayer”

I know that centering prayer is dangerous and uses eastern methods of emptying the mind.

But… What is mental prayer and contemplative prayer?
I once heard that St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the cross practiced contemplative prayer. I tried googling contemplative prayer but all I came up with was the difference between centering prayer and contemplative prayer. Some websites said that contemplative prayer is a gift from God… So… I heard that St. Therese of Lisieux learned mental prayer at eleven years of age. I also found many quotes from saints describing the importance of mental prayer. Yet, I’ve heard many use “mental prayer” and “contemplative prayer” interchangeably. What is mental prayer? How is it done?

Could someone enlighten me?
Thanks and God bless.

 

[laws319]

I am one raised baptist turned catholic, here is my thoughts
please consider all other poster have to say as well

prayer be it music sung or meditated on, thoughts and desires of the heart etc are all prayer. often I find I think of a person I know or have met and realize that I need to take the time and

1. thank god for that person
2. ask god to meet that persons needs
3. praise
   god for them

In this I later find that they were going thru something an God meet their needs.

I dont think that prayer and empty minds go together because prayer has to do with the heart, spirit and needs of yourself or others. think of the praise of god If this helps clear your mind, then by all means pray without stopping. (as the scriptures say)
Paul

 

[Edwin78]

Hi Oumashta

I’ve heard a lot of “centering prayer” “mental prayer” and “contemplative prayer”

I know that centering prayer is dangerous and uses eastern methods of emptying the mind.

But… What is mental prayer and contemplative prayer?
I once heard that St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the cross practiced contemplative prayer. I tried googling contemplative prayer but all I came up with was the difference between centering prayer and contemplative prayer. Some websites said that contemplative prayer is a gift from God… So… I heard that St. Therese of Lisieux learned mental prayer at eleven years of age. I also found many quotes from saints describing the importance of mental prayer. Yet, I’ve heard many use “mental prayer” and “contemplative prayer” interchangeably. What is mental prayer? How is it done?

Could someone enlighten me?
Thanks and God bless.

Simply put, the difference between Eastern and Western (Christian) meditation is that the Eastern methods of meditation empty the mind of everything, while Christian meditation fills the mind with God. That is all there is to it. Try reading again your sources of information with this distinction in mind

 

[DBT]

Maybe this will help . . .

Mental prayer is simply a “loving conversation between friends” (St. Teresa of Avila). It’s speaking to God in the silence of one’s own heart using whatever words we are moved to by the Holy Spirit. This way of Prayer is also called the Prayer of Heart.

The Prayer of Simplicity often flows from mental prayer, especially when one tends to pray unceasingly. In this way of prayer, the use of words is diminished . . . reduced to simple aspirations such as “Thy will be done,” “Thank you,” or even something as basic as “help.” This prayer may simplify further so that words are no longer necessary or helpful . . . our prayer becomes a “loving attentiveness” to God (St. John of the Cross).

Tied up in all of this is the concept of recollection . . . the recalling of our mind and heart to God whenever we notice it strays. Properly speaking, this is what “centering” is . . . or should be.

As stated, the goal is to learn/desire to pray continuously. This lies within our means to do. Sometimes we will be moved to pray with our heart (mental prayer) or in simplicity . . . as the Holy Spirit moves us. Throughout all this we will, by necessity, practice habitual recollection . . . for our minds and hearts are weak and we are prone to stray.

Infused contemplation, on the other hand, lies beyond our control . . . it is a total gift from God.

What we see in these stages of prayer is that the felt experience is of a *slowing down *of mental activity . . . whether by our means or God’s. With mental prayer we are quite active; with simplicty much less so. In contemplation, God actually suspends our faculties (in full or part) so that we do no more than simply bask in His glow. We don’t “do” anything at such times . . . we simply “be.” We may even momentarily become unaware of thoughts and feelings . . . such is the blinding light of His love.

Dave

 

[Oumashta]

Maybe this will help . . .

Mental prayer is simply a “loving conversation between friends” (St. Teresa of Avila). It’s speaking to God in the silence of one’s own heart using whatever words we are moved to by the Holy Spirit. This way of Prayer is also called the Prayer of Heart.

The Prayer of Simplicity often flows from mental prayer, especially when one tends to pray unceasingly. In this way of prayer, the use of words is diminished . . . reduced to simple aspirations such as “Thy will be done,” “Thank you,” or even something as basic as “help.” This prayer may simplify further so that words are no longer necessary or helpful . . . our prayer becomes a “loving attentiveness” to God (St. John of the Cross).

Tied up in all of this is the concept of recollection . . . the recalling of our mind and heart to God whenever we notice it strays. Properly speaking, this is what “centering” is . . . or should be.

As stated, the goal is to learn/desire to pray continuously. This lies within our means to do. Sometimes we will be moved to pray with our heart (mental prayer) or in simplicity . . . as the Holy Spirit moves us. Throughout all this we will, by necessity, practice habitual recollection . . . for our minds and hearts are weak and we are prone to stray.

Infused contemplation, on the other hand, lies beyond our control . . . it is a total gift from God.

What we see in these stages of prayer is that the felt experience is of a *slowing down *of mental activity . . . whether by our means or God’s. With mental prayer we are quite active; with simplicty much less so. In contemplation, God actually suspends our faculties (in full or part) so that we do no more than simply bask in His glow. We don’t “do” anything at such times . . . we simply “be.” We may even momentarily become unaware of thoughts and feelings . . . such is the blinding light of His love.

Dave

Are you supposed to use words during mental prayer? Like spoken words or thinking about the words? How do I do mental prayer? Just bask in the presence of God, or do I talk? Sorry I’m not very familiar with this form of prayer
Thanks!

 

[DBT]

Are you supposed to use words during mental prayer? Like spoken words or thinking about the words?

Yes, mental prayer is simply talking to God in our own words. Not so much with spoken words, though, we talk to Him interiorly . . . anywhere, anyplace, anytime. There’s no “method” or “how to” about it . . . you just do it. In fact, this wonderful little book on mental prayer called “The Practice of the Presence of God” by Brother Lawrence, a Catholic classic, is sometimes called the methodless method.

www.catholictreasury.info/books/presence_of_God/index.php

Hope this helps,
Dave

 

[Monica4316]

I’ve heard a lot of “centering prayer” “mental prayer” and “contemplative prayer”

I know that centering prayer is dangerous and uses eastern methods of emptying the mind.

But… What is mental prayer and contemplative prayer?
I once heard that St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the cross practiced contemplative prayer. I tried googling contemplative prayer but all I came up with was the difference between centering prayer and contemplative prayer. Some websites said that contemplative prayer is a gift from God… So… I heard that St. Therese of Lisieux learned mental prayer at eleven years of age. I also found many quotes from saints describing the importance of mental prayer. Yet, I’ve heard many use “mental prayer” and “contemplative prayer” interchangeably. What is mental prayer? How is it done?

Could someone enlighten me?
Thanks and God bless.

You might be interested in reading the book “the Interior Castle” by St Teresa of Avila she describes it very well there! She also describes the soul as a castle, with different ‘mansions’, indicating the person’s spiritual progress… I think I’m at mansion 1 or 2, lol, but it was still very interesting to read and she gives very good advice

 

[Oumashta]

You might be interested in reading the book “the Interior Castle” by St Teresa of Avila she describes it very well there! She also describes the soul as a castle, with different ‘mansions’, indicating the person’s spiritual progress… I think I’m at mansion 1 or 2, lol, but it was still very interesting to read and she gives very good advice

I tried reading The Interior Castle It’s just that I don’t have enough time on the computer to read it online. I tried the library but the book, according to their log, is in another library REALLY far away from me… Is there another book that may talk about the same subject? Thanks!
God bless.

 

[LilyM]

I tried reading The Interior Castle It’s just that I don’t have enough time on the computer to read it online. I tried the library but the book, according to their log, is in another library REALLY far away from me… Is there another book that may talk about the same subject? Thanks!
God bless.

If you have a device that can play mp3s, perhaps you can try listening to it instead, as an audio book. Or just listen to it on your computer if you can. You can download (or listen to) it for free at librivox.org/newcatalog/search.php?title=Interior+Castle&author=&status=all&action=Search. It’s public domain, so it’s completely legal to download.

According to them it takes about 7 hours all up to listen to, but with books like this it pays to take your time and go through it slowly rather than all at once.

 

[rebecca123]

The book “Fire Within” by Father DuBay has been really helpful to me. It talks about the prayer habits and teachings of St. Theresa of Avilla and St. John of the Cross. It’s thick , but you can read portions at a time. Great to refer back to all the time.

 

[Oumashta]

If you have a device that can play mp3s, perhaps you can try listening to it instead, as an audio book. Or just listen to it on your computer if you can. You can download (or listen to) it for free at librivox.org/newcatalog/search.php?title=Interior+Castle&author=&status=all&action=Search. It’s public domain, so it’s completely legal to download.

According to them it takes about 7 hours all up to listen to, but with books like this it pays to take your time and go through it slowly rather than all at once.

Thanks for that! That will be VERY helpful! I can just listen to it. Thanks

 

[Alan55]

Hi Oumashta

Simply put, the difference between Eastern and Western (Christian) meditation is that the Eastern methods of meditation empty the mind of everything, while Christian meditation fills the mind with God. That is all there is to it. Try reading again your sources of information with this distinction in mind

While I am sure that your post is well intentioned, I don’t think that it is accurate that Christian meditation necessarily involves “filling the mind with God” as contrasted with “emptying the mind.” I have heard such a description by evangelical protestants as a criticism of Catholic prayer, particularly contemplative prayer. I don’t think that it is accurate or helpful.

In fact, as Christian prayer simplifies for some persons, silence, listening, and what might appear to be an “empty mind” may be part of prayer. Certainly, contemplation can involve praying without the use of the senses or thinking about a passage of scripture, an image, etc.

I’ll refer those interested to such Doctors of the Church as St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross, “The Cloud of Unknowing,” or such modern classics as “When the Well Runs Dry” by Fr. Thomas Green, S.J. for descriptions and guidance regarding contemplative prayer.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

The Catechism has an excellent section on three forms of prayer: vocal, meditative, and contemplative.

The whole article is here.

Here is the summary section of it:

CCC:

2720
The Church invites the faithful to regular prayer: daily prayers, the Liturgy of the Hours, Sunday Eucharist , the feasts of the liturgical year.

2721
The Christian tradition comprises three major expressions of the life of prayer: vocal prayer, meditation, and contemplative prayer. They have in common the recollection of the heart.

2722
Vocal prayer, founded on the union of body and soul in human nature, associates the body with the interior prayer of the heart, following Christ’s example of praying to his Father and teaching the Our Father to his disciples.

2723
Meditation is a prayerful quest engaging thought, imagination, emotion, and desire. Its goal is to make our own in faith the subject considered, by confronting it with the reality of our own life.

2724
Contemplative prayer is the simple expression of the mystery of prayer. It is a gaze of faith fixed on Jesus, an attentiveness to the Word of God, a silent love. It achieves real union with the prayer of Christ to the extent that it makes us share in his mystery.

 

[DBT]

AlanFromWichita:

The Catechism has an excellent section on three forms of prayer: vocal, meditative, and contemplative.

The whole article is here.

Here is the summary section of it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CCC
2720
The Church invites the faithful to regular prayer: daily prayers, the Liturgy of the Hours, Sunday Eucharist , the feasts of the liturgical year.

2721
The Christian tradition comprises three major expressions of the life of prayer: vocal prayer, meditation, and contemplative prayer. They have in common the recollection of the heart.

2722
Vocal prayer, founded on the union of body and soul in human nature, associates the body with the interior prayer of the heart, following Christ’s example of praying to his Father and teaching the Our Father to his disciples.

2723
Meditation is a prayerful quest engaging thought, imagination, emotion, and desire. Its goal is to make our own in faith the subject considered, by confronting it with the reality of our own life.

2724
Contemplative prayer is the simple expression of the mystery of prayer. It is a gaze of faith fixed on Jesus, an attentiveness to the Word of God, a silent love. It achieves real union with the prayer of Christ to the extent that it makes us share in his mystery.

This is a nice synopsis.

Note the slowing down of mental activity that occurs (as some posters have noted): From engaging in thought, imagination, emotion etc (meditation) . . . to a simple gaze, wordless attentiveness and silent love (contemplation).

I think this slowing down . . . which is so much a part of mystical teaching (especially Sts John and Teresa) . . . is very difficult for some people to understand and accept. Perhaps it’s part of human nature to think “we” have to be responsible for everything. That good prayer means “doing” rather than just “being.” I’ve seen a lot of that over the years on these forums in the form of distrust and contentious arguements over the meaning of terms like “emptying” or “filling.” The great paradox is that in contemplative prayer . . . they are one and the same. But only experience can show that this is true. And words often fail to explain what is known by experience in one’s own heart.

Regardless, the Saints were well aware of these concerns of what other people might think about the simplified prayer that becomes contemplation. Just one example: much of the anxiety that’s part and parcel with St. John of the Cross’ passive night of sense (when contemplation first begins) is the fear that the soul is simply wasting their time and engaging in worthless idleness. To make matters worse, well meaning but ill informed people have a tendency to interject themselves into the situation by giving wrong or even harmful advice. St. John, in particular, warns against spiritual directors lacking in experience who insist individuals return to meditation when the Lord is calling them to a “loving attentiveness” that doesn’t have need for “images, forms or ideas” (i.e. indulging our thoughts and feelings at prayer). And St. Teresa speaks at length of the great harm done to her by all the “learned men.”

Just some rambling thoughts that came to mind when I saw your post

Dave

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Dave,

When you say that emptying and filling can happen together, that reminds me of a CD I heard about non-dualistic thinking. It’s like being able to see a way other than taking one of two sides of any given issue. For example, when Jesus was asked whether they should stone the adulteress, Jesus did not take a side. He did not tell them they should not, and thus go against the law, or tell them they should stone her, and thus kill. Instead, he took a third way out. He chose to take that time to teach a lesson about sin and punishment and let the people’s own guilt protect the woman. My point is, a non-dualistic thinker tries not to be pigeonholed into choosing and either/or situation, in preference for a win-win situation if at all possible.

Alan

 

[DBT]

Dave,

When you say that emptying and filling can happen together that reminds me of a CD I heard about non-dualistic thinking. It’s like being able to see a way other than taking one of two sides of any given issue. For example, when Jesus was asked whether they should stone the adulteress, Jesus did not take a side. He did not tell them they should not, and thus go against the law, or tell them they should stone her, and thus kill. Instead, he took a third way out. He chose to take that time to teach a lesson about sin and punishment and let the people’s own guilt protect the woman. My point is, a non-dualistic thinker tries not to be pigeonholed into choosing and either/or situation, in preference for a win-win situation if at all possible.

Alan

Well, I’m not familiar with non-dualistic thinking so I’ll take your word for it!

I know you know what I’m trying to say . . . but perhaps I should clarify lest I open an unnecessary can of worms. For whatever reason, the concept of “emptying” is viewed with distrust by some . . . but that’s precisely what St. John teaches in “The Ascent of Mount Carmel” as part of the active night of spirit. Specifically, that we should train ourselves to maintain habitual custody over our minds and heart . . . to continually redirect our thoughts and feelings away from “self” and back to their true end . . . God. If we don’t learn to do this, we end up making little idols of our opinions and preferences. Letting go of these is a great act of detachment and abandonment . . . and a great part of the pain and suffering that comes with the corresponding passive night of spirit . . . when God strips us by the roots of the very ideas we hold of ourselves.

In a mystical sense, this simultaneous emptying/filling is wonderfully captured in the scripture passage “He must increase; I must decrease.” To me at least, this crystalizes the experience of “slowing down” that occurs as our active prayer (vocal, meditation, mental prayer etc) gives way to the passive (contemplation). And, more important, it also captures the transformative effect silent prayer has in molding us into “the new man” St. Paul so often mentions in his letters. St. John of the Cross also describes how emptying and filling must go hand in hand . . . because “nature abhors a vaccuum.”

Dave

 

[CDNowak]

OP, what you read on Contemplation being a gift of God is correct from the Catholic standpoint, and very important to keep in mind when reading the Carmelites. The concept of emptying is viewed with distrust because it *resembles *the heresy of quietism.

Meditation, also called mental prayer, takes on many forms: the Benedictines and Dominicans prefer Lectio Divina (a studied, word-by-word reading of Scripture, the Fathers or other worthy texts), Franciscans (and possibly the Carmelites) tend toward an affective approach (emotion), the Jesuits an imaginative approach (placing yourself in the midst of the life of Christ).

Despite the warnings of St John of the Cross and St Therese, a spiritual director is essential as one is drawn into regular practice of meditation, particularly when one appears to be deliberately seeking the grace of contemplation. The temptation to use the “shortcuts” of the Eastern religions can be quite destructive. (and this is far more of an immediate problem in our age).

---

A semi-rhetorical question: I do wonder if the contemplation described by the Carmelites is not the ecstasies and/or raptures described by the biographers of many saints?

 

[DBT]

Wow

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Maybe a couple more quotes from the CCC article I referenced are in order:

CCC:

2710
The choice of the time and duration of the prayer arises from a determined will, revealing the secrets of the heart. One does not undertake contemplative prayer only when one has the time: one makes time for the Lord, with the firm determination not to give up, no matter what trials and dryness one may encounter. One cannot always meditate, but one can always enter into inner prayer, independently of the conditions of health, work, or emotional state. The heart is the place of this quest and encounter, in poverty and in faith.

2711
Entering into contemplative prayer is like entering into the Eucharistic liturgy: we “gather up” the heart, recollect our whole being under the prompting of the Holy Spirit, abide in the dwelling place of the Lord which we are, awaken our faith in order to enter into the presence of him who awaits us. We let our masks fall and turn our hearts back to the Lord who loves us, so as to hand ourselves over to him as an offering to be purified and transformed.

In this case, “emptying” constitutes “letting our masks fall.” What we empty our minds of is our regular day-to-day thoughts which constitute our masks. It isn’t like we’re going to turn into Buddhists or something, because we use the word “emptying.”

2715
Contemplation is a gaze of faith, fixed on Jesus. “I look at him and he looks at me”: this is what a certain peasant of Ars in the time of his holy curé used to say while praying before the tabernacle. This focus on Jesus is a renunciation of self. His gaze purifies our heart; the light of the countenance of Jesus illumines the eyes of our heart and teaches us to see everything in the light of his truth and his compassion for all men. Contemplation also turns its gaze on the mysteries of the life of Christ. Thus it learns the “interior knowledge of our Lord,” the more to love him and follow him.11

Again, a renunciation of self. Same concept.

2717
Contemplative prayer is silence, the "symbol of the world to come"12 or "silent love."13 Words in this kind of prayer are not speeches; they are like kindling that feeds the fire of love. In this silence, unbearable to the “outer” man, the Father speaks to us his incarnate Word, who suffered, died, and rose; in this silence the Spirit of adoption enables us to share in the prayer of Jesus.

Note this is entirely Catholic. Silent prayer is not dangerous; of course the prayer form that the CCC says is what prayer “should” lead to is a prime target for misconceptions. Think about it; it’s important to the enemy to prevent people from discovering contemplative prayer forms that invite contemplation, that bring us into true union with God.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Wow

You said it.