Question on Homosexuality

[buffalo]

You missed the rest of my post. I have not actedon my attraction but refuse to say it is environmental when I experienced it as far back as I can remember. There is nothing, absolutely nothing unhealthy about an attraction either way. It is the irrational fear of others who experience those attractions that I see as unhealthy.

What if you were intorduced to some environmental factor before your earliest memories, ie the womb?

 

[fix]

fix, I’ll go out on a wild hair here, and guess that you aren’t a bioscientist by trade.

Certainly not. Do you think one who claims that title is axiomatically ethical? You want to divorce science from morality and logic.

And ‘health’ is in fact a human judgment, and very arbitrary. What happens does, in fact happen, whether or not you, I or the ghost of Elvis thinks it should.

What does that mean? Arbitrary? So if you get hit by a bus you really are not hurt?

 

[goofyjim]

What if you were intorduced to some environmental factor before your earliest memories, ie the womb?

Therein would be a biological cause for the orientation and make it pointless for any darn psychologist to try to reverse it.

 

[fix]

You missed the rest of my post. I have not actedon my attraction but refuse to say it is environmental when I experienced it as far back as I can remember. There is nothing, absolutely nothing unhealthy about an attraction either way. It is the irrational fear of others who experience those attractions that I see as unhealthy.

I did not miss your post. I just disgree with your conclusion. You think the inclination is equivalent to something like eye color? Some have blue some have brown?

 

[Reepicheep]

Unless someone is Gay or lesbian they should not judge or critize them.

Unless someone is an alcoholic they should not judge or criticize alcoholics who get drunk.

Unless someone is clinically depressed they should not judge or criticize depressed people who refuse meds or therapy.

Unless someone robs people they should not judge or criticize those who do.

If you don’t plan to spend the rest of your life single and alone,

Like me?

without acceptance from the Christian Church,

The Catholic Church specifically teaches compassion for those afflicted with SSA.

then don’t express your lack of LOVE!
Luke 10:27.

(mildly) Love of course requires that we condone anything the loved one wants to do, and agree with anything they say.

The loving thing to do is to let them decide for themselves what path they need to take

Because we must never tell someone that what they want to do is harmful or wrong – that would be judgemental.

in their Christian walk.

To have a Christian walk you must admit that Christianity is true. Part of that truth is that homosexual acts are objectively wrong and forbidden.

The issue is between their creator themselves.

If I want to:
/get drunk all the time/
/mug people/
/beat my aging mother/
/use amphetimines/
/cheat on my taxes/
/insert forbidden act of choice here/
that’s between my creator and me.

If you’re not gay it’s none of your business.

Can’t criticize gays unless you’re gay – see above.

It’s no secret that catholics are homophobic!

Definition of a homophobe: Any person who criticizes or disagrees with gay people.

My self included, it was tuaght to me by the church,

(Flat statement) No. It was not taught to you by the church.
…It might have been taught to you by some individual or individuals.

and I’ve worked hard to overcome that Bigotry. Jesus had a “special relationship” with the one whom he Loved, (John) who lay at his breast. And also, was the only male at the cross with the women; Figure it out,

Assertion is not evidence. Prove it.
And you don’t get to argue that because John is called “beloved” he must therefore be gay.

Jesus didn’t try to make him straight. To fast foward into the 21st century, it’s been several years now since science has discovered the unchallengeible fact that SSA is found in identical twins, which makes it genetically related!

“Non sequiter” --it does not follow.
Show me a set of twins, both of whom are gay, and I’ll show you a set of twins, one of whom is gay while the other is not.
Or show me a gay redhaired man and then claim that redheads are genetically predisposed to be gay.

Another outdated superstion has been has been thrown into the dustbin of history. Lets see, before that one, there was the one about left-handedness being an evil inclination. Early 1960’s ish.:nun2:

Since when did the Church teach that being left-handed was evil? In any case, again non sequiter - pointing to a false belief about left-handedness proves nothing about SSA.

 

[Nepenthe]

Title? Ethical? What are you trying to say here, fix?

Do not make the mistake I think you’re approaching. Really, don’t.

And fine…go ahead, define ‘health,’ at least as you would have it. Can you agree that it is referential to the system in question? Sometimes being healthy is painful, though pain generally serves as a warning that there may be a problem, or sometimes more than just a problem.

 

[goofyjim]

I did not miss your post. I just disgree with your conclusion. You think the inclination is equivalent to something like eye color? Some have blue some have brown?

Yes. I do. There is nothing conclusive either way so it is all just a matter of opinion for now. Yet we spent so much time and money in finding the alcoholic gene and refuse to do any more research into biological causes of a homosexual orientation. If we could show that one is born with this inclination it might help us treat the behavior without putting many through the misery of having to fit the social norms of heterosexuality.

 

[fix]

Title? Ethical? What are you trying to say here, fix?

Do not make the mistake I think you’re approaching. Really, don’t.

You think because one is credentialed in some field that means any finding or conclusion is unassailable? You think because someone claims some inclination has some genetic component that means it is *natural *as in consistent with good health.

 

[fix]

Yes. I do. There is nothing conclusive either way so it is all just a matter of opinion for now. Yet we spent so much time and money in finding the alcoholic gene and refuse to do any more research into biological causes of a homosexual orientation. If we could show that one is born with this inclination it might help us treat the behavior without putting many through the misery of having to fit the social norms of heterosexuality.

You have the help of the Church. Did God ordain same sex attraction? Was that part of the original plan for humanity?

 

[Nepenthe]

Hardly, fix.

But I sure don’t think you know your elbow from a hole in the ground on these topics either. So maybe you personally shouldn’t be assailing them until you do a little studying.

 

[goofyjim]

You have the help of the Church. Did God ordain same sex attraction? Was that part of the original plan for humanity?

And the Church does not pretend to know the exact cause of ssa so neither should we. It does not, does not, does not need to be changed. One can go through life with it and never step foot into any doctors office. In fact one might be able to go through life with it never having to confess a mortal sin. It is possible because the attraction is not the sin.

 

[fix]

Hardly, fix.

But I sure don’t think you know your elbow from a hole in the ground on these topics either. So maybe you personally shouldn’t be assailing them until you do a little studying.

And you are the expert? Are you not the one who thinks health is arbitrary? I think those involved in a particular “lifestyle” have a deep seated need to prove it is “natural”. Now, why would that be?

 

[fix]

And the Church does not pretend to know the exact cause of ssa so neither should we. It does not, does not, does not need to be changed. One can go through life with it and never step foot into any doctors office. In fact one might be able to go through life with it never having to confess a mortal sin. It is possible because the attraction is not the sin.

That is not the point we are discussing. We are discussing if the inclination is consistent with good health and occurs “naturally” meaning it is not pathologic.

If the Church teaches, and She does, it is an objective disorder meaning philosophically it is not ordered to the good how could such an inclination be ordained by God?

Whether it requires treatment is not part of the discussion. I am arguing it is not “natural” meaning it was not part of God’s design just as disease is not part of God’s design.

Does God ordain things contrary to Himself?

 

[Nepenthe]

I wouldn’t know about having any ‘need to prove’ a thing about my lifestyle…why don’t you tell us, Fix? Since, of course, you are the expert here.

No really, do go on!

• and yes, actually I daresay that compared to you, at least, I am rather well-informed about biology and medicine, and my family has been prominent in many fields of biological research for six generations. You have reaped the benefits of their great learning and labor, though you haven’t the wherewithal to appreciate it, perhaps.

 

[Mirdath]

And you are the expert?

Compared to you? I’d venture a yes, based on what you’ve said about it so far.

Are you not the one who thinks health is arbitrary?

Then define it, if you would.

I think those involved in a particular “lifestyle” have a deep seated need to prove it is “natural”. Now, why would that be?

Mostly I’d say it’s because ‘those involved’ are so sick of hearing about how it’s so ‘unnatural’ from people like you that a response may be considered justified over just ignoring you, since the old canard about not reacting to bullies seems not to have worked out.

By the way, gay penguins are raising a child. Natural? Sure looks like it.

 

[Nepenthe]

Mirdath - awwies! Okay, now I am happy once more…penguins!

 

[estesbob]

Compared to you? I’d venture a yes, based on what you’ve said about it so far.

Then define it, if you would.

Mostly I’d say it’s because ‘those involved’ are so sick of hearing about how it’s so ‘unnatural’ from people like you that a response may be considered justified over just ignoring you, since the old canard about not reacting to bullies seems not to have worked out.

By the way, gay penguins are raising a child. Natural? Sure looks like it.

My dog eats his own poop and licks his anus. Does that mean its OK for us to do so?

 

[fix]

I wouldn’t know about having any ‘need to prove’ a thing about my lifestyle…why don’t you tell us, Fix? Since, of course, you are the expert here.

I have not claimed to be an expert. I offer Church teaching and some logic. I do not kowtow to para-experts.

and yes, actually I daresay that compared to you, at least, I am rather well-informed about biology and medicine, and my family has been prominent in many fields of biological research for six generations.

I see. So, you are an expert by association?

You have reaped the benefits of their great learning and labor, though you haven’t the wherewithal to appreciate it, perhaps.

Because I reject your relativism I am uninformed? Self appointed experts are in no short supply here.

 

[fix]

Compared to you? I’d venture a yes, based on what you’ve said about it so far.

Let us not get into a chlidish contest.

Then define it, if you would.

I find this amusing. You need me to define what is healthy? What does a physician do? I mean if he cannot know health how does he/she treat disease? I understand the relativists play with the definition all the time in an attempt to get in abortion and homosexual acts and all the rest.

Mostly I’d say it’s because ‘those involved’ are so sick of hearing about how it’s so ‘unnatural’ from people like you that a response may be considered justified over just ignoring you, since the old canard about not reacting to bullies seems not to have worked out.

Bully? The persecution complex is showing. Any contra position is deemed hate, bullying, etc.

By the way, gay penguins are raising a child. Natural? Sure looks like it.

Again, that something occurs in nature does not make it consistent with health or morally good.

 

[buffalo]

And the Church does not pretend to know the exact cause of ssa so neither should we. It does not, does not, does not need to be changed. One can go through life with it and never step foot into any doctors office. In fact one might be able to go through life with it never having to confess a mortal sin. It is possible because the attraction is not the sin.

C’mon JIm, if you are truly on a journey to perfection we should strive to be like Christ in all ways.