Question on Islam -- round 4

[Aydan]

Allah yerhamlek aiydan.

sorry you lost me on this one I don’t get it.

 

[dzheremi]

Hahaha. No, it’s not to you.

I cannot type in Arabic on my keyboard. My only option for typing arabic words is using Google translation page or yamli.com, both of which are something of a pain if you’re trying to type more than just a word, so it’s easier to just transliterate the Arabic into Roman characters and hope that whoever it is I’m typing to can understand.

The phrase in Arabic is الله يرحملك أيضاً “God have mercy on you, also”. أيضاً (aaydan, aydan…aiydan as I’ve put it is my attempt to deal with the vowel sound at the beginning, which would definitely require some sort of diphthong) means “also, as well, too”, etc.

I did not think of the similarity to your username when I wrote that. I’m sorry for the confusion.

 

[DeusVult09]

Hi I have a question about Islam.

Why does Mohammad say that bells are satanic then say that his revelations are revealed in the ringing of a bell? Is he calling his own revelations satanic?

Here you can see Mohammad says bells are satanic

Sahih Muslim Book 024, Number 5279: Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The bell is the musical instrument of the Satan.

Sahih Muslim Book 024, Number 5277:
Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Angels do not accompany the travellers who have with them a dog and a bell

Abudawud Book 34, Number 4218:
Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab:
Ibn az-Zubayr told that a woman client of theirs took az-Zubayr’s daughter to Umar ibn al-Khattab wearing bells on her legs. Umar cut them off and said that he had heard the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) say: There is a devil along with each bell.

Now here he says his revelations were revealed in the ringing of a bell.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 1, Number 2:
Narrated ‘Aisha:
(the mother of the faithful believers) Al-Harith bin Hisham asked Allah’s Apostle “O Allah’s Apostle! How is the Divine Inspiration revealed to you?” Allah’s Apostle replied, "**Sometimes it is (revealed) like the ringing of a bell, this form of Inspiration is the hardest of all and then this state passes **’ off after I have grasped what is inspired. Sometimes the Angel comes in the form of a man and talks to me and I grasp whatever he says." 'Aisha added: Verily I saw the Prophet being inspired Divinely on a very cold day and noticed the Sweat dropping from his forehead (as the Inspiration was over).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 438:
Narrated Aisha:
Al Harith bin Hisham asked the Prophet, “How does the divine inspiration come to you?” He replied, “In all these ways: The Angel sometimes comes to me with a voice which resembles the sound of a ringing bell, and when this state abandons me, I remember what the Angel has said, and this type of Divine Inspiration is the hardest on me; and sometimes the Angel comes to me in the shape of a man and talks to me, and I understand and remember what he says.”

Now how can this be?

As I see it there are only 3 possibilities
1 Mohammad was possessed and was admitting his revelations were satanic
2 These hadiths are corrupted (if this the case id need to see some proof of that)
3 Mohamamd was just really inconsistent in his teachings

 

[sedonaman]

…
As I see it there are only 3 possibilities
1 Mohammad was possessed and was admitting his revelations were satanic
2 These hadiths are corrupted (if this the case id need to see some proof of that)
3 Mohamamd was just really inconsistent in his teachings

How about all the above?

 

[Aydan]

no it wasn’t my username that caused the confusion I thought it was Turkish because it is very similar to the way Turkish is written because all Turkish verbs end in mek or mak as you know there is a lot of Arabic in Turkish so I just assumed you were writing something in Turkish.

Hahaha. No, it’s not to you.

I cannot type in Arabic on my keyboard. My only option for typing arabic words is using Google translation page or yamli.com, both of which are something of a pain if you’re trying to type more than just a word, so it’s easier to just transliterate the Arabic into Roman characters and hope that whoever it is I’m typing to can understand.

The phrase in Arabic is الله يرحملك أيضاً “God have mercy on you, also”. أيضاً (aaydan, aydan…aiydan as I’ve put it is my attempt to deal with the vowel sound at the beginning, which would definitely require some sort of diphthong) means “also, as well, too”, etc.

I did not think of the similarity to your username when I wrote that. I’m sorry for the confusion.

 

[dzheremi]

Ah. Nope. I’ve never learned any Turkish or any other Turkic language.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Ugh. I hate this kind of garbage. God bless me, I know it’s a sin to hate, but I really can’t stand it. What kind of a Muslim is it that does not believe that Jesus EXISTED, even if they don’t believe Christian claims about Him? You’ve only been here for a short time, but if you only knew how often such things are posted…you wouldn’t want to add to it. Or maybe you would. Plenty of Muslims here seem content to cut off their noses to spite their faces. Or rather, to spite ours. It’s pathetic and sad.

Even more hilarious is to claim that some ideas believed even by Muslims (ie. Christ’s miraculous birth) are apparently ripped off from paganism. So…I guess…Islam ripped off paganism too?

As you said, sometimes in an effort to shoot down Christianity, some (though not all, to the credit of many on this board) Muslims seem to only shoot themselves in the foot.

EDIT: Actually I remember at the last place I lived a Muslim debated a Christian and claimed the idea of a resurrection was taken from Osiris. The Christian said, “Uh…don’t Muslims believe in the resurrection at the end times?”

 

[Christos]

Ugh. I hate this kind of garbage. God bless me, I know it’s a sin to hate, but I really can’t stand it. What kind of a Muslim is it that does not believe that Jesus EXISTED, even if they don’t believe Christian claims about Him? You’ve only been here for a short time, but if you only knew how often such things are posted…you wouldn’t want to add to it. Or maybe you would. Plenty of Muslims here seem content to cut off their noses to spite their faces. Or rather, to spite ours. It’s pathetic and sad.

I never once said that I disbelieve in Jesus. I am saying that it can also be said that you have Plagiarized and stolen from other religions. That was my only point. I apologize if I misled you. As you can see however, these are still historical facts, and many with older supporting proofs to back them up. So if you are willing to use that same reasoning that the Quran is plagiarized, then we can also say that the Bible was plagiarized. However, us Muslims know better, and do not belive that the Bible was plagiarized nor the Quran. The Bible may contain teachings of other religions from around the world, becuase the Quran says there isnt a single nation where a Prophet hasnt been sent. Still, if your willing to say the Quran is plagiarized, then answer the posts i have made, imagining an Atheist had been questioning you. Don’t just simply say you hate this garbage, and not refute it.

So therefore, please enlighten me with your knoledge.

 

[planten]

This has nothing to do with anything, since the passage under consideration was not written in English or Arabic. The word used in Hebrew is anaw or anav, depending on dialect, which is pretty clearly unrelated to any cognate of “Muslim” or “Islam”. From what I can gather without learning Hebrew just to respond to your post, anav is something like “humility” (I don’t know this word in Arabic, but I looked it up and it’s apparently التواضع…also transparently unrelated to “Muslim” or “Islam”!)

**dzheremi, you are right. The arabic word التواضع tawadhu’u is used for humility. There is a Hadith (saying) of the prophet Muhammad as follows:

If any servant behaved with humility التواضع ( tawadhu’u ) Allah will raise his ranks to the seventh heaven.**

 

[planten]

**Dear christos, I am following your posts with careful reading. I find them the best replies and no more replies are needed for any question on Islam - round 4. We do not know how many more questions these friends have got in store. But let there be one question only at a time. God willing, it will be replied.
You had described the matter of divorce as per Islam very well. These christians are in trouble due to some misunderstanding of their scripture.

Jesus was right when he said that those who are joined by God, let no one separate them. That was a good advice, indeed very good. But it did not forbid divorce. Jesus did not say there is no divorce. He only advised against divorce. But the christians understood it differently and later had to become defaulters. How bad !!

About your post #1038, may I just add one more line?

In some cases, uttering the words of divorce become invalid. Among these cases is when the husband is:

drunk

forced to utter them by someone else

in a complete loss of temper to the extent that he is unaware of what he is saying

in an abnormal state of mind, such as temporary madness, epilepsy or in a coma,

In such cases, divorce is null and void.

**

It is also forbidden to divorce a wife when she is menstruating. The order of divorce should be pronounced on her during her clean periods only. There could only be a maximum of three pronouncements only.The lady cannot divorce (dismiss) the husband. Only the husband can do that. But the lasy can always resign (i.e. Seek Khula’a).

I hope I am right. The rest of your post was all very well. I thought you may have missed that point about the divorce in clean time only, or I may be wrong. Wassalam. planten.

 

[dzheremi]

I never once said that I disbelieve in Jesus. I am saying that it can also be said that you have Plagiarized and stolen from other religions. That was my only point. I apologize if I misled you. As you can see however, these are still historical facts, and many with older supporting proofs to back them up.

Oh, come on now. You may not have written the words “I do not believe in Jesus”, but by claiming that Jesus is the latest incarnation of previous mythical characters (which is what that list of historical “facts” is meant to do), this is in effect what you are doing.

So if you are willing to use that same reasoning that the Quran is plagiarized, then we can also say that the Bible was plagiarized.

It is not the same reasoning, though. That’s the key. Christians here and elsewhere have pointed out that the Qur’an fails according to its own precepts by being unable to prove its claims of continuation/correction of the religions that came before it. Christianity does not have this problem because it does not claim that the previous scriptures were corrupted, and it does not claim that the previous prophets in fact belonged to it and not Judaism.

However, us Muslims know better, and do not belive that the Bible was plagiarized nor the Quran.

Get over yourselves. You know nothing of other traditions because you don’t value them as being separate from Islam. You claim all the past prophets for yourselves and subordinate everyone and everything to Muhammad. You don’t know better than anyone about any other religious tradition.

The Bible may contain teachings of other religions from around the world, becuase the Quran says there isnt a single nation where a Prophet hasnt been sent.

This is an interesting idea. Does the Qur’an record any of these prophets, so that we can check up on who they are and where they were sent?

Still, if your willing to say the Quran is plagiarized, then answer the posts i have made, imagining an Atheist had been questioning you. Don’t just simply say you hate this garbage, and not refute it.

I think it is pretty much an incontrovertable fact that at least some of the Qur’ans stories about Jesus and other persons that the Qur’an claims for itself that are also present in Christianity are taken from apocryphal gospels. Plagarized could be the word for it, if that’s what you want to use. Stories in the Qur’an about the infancy and childhood of Jesus, for instance, are found originally in the Arabic Infancy Gospel (Jesus speaking from the cradle) and the Infacy Gospel of Thomas (Jesus making birds out of clay).

 

[elwill]

This argument has been used before, and it is just as faulty when used again for two reasons.

First, nowhere does Moses say that the scripture will be corrupted beyond recognition - he is merely saying that they will start acting in a corrupt fashion after he goes. This does not denote that the scripture will be tarnished, but that the actions of people will. The scripture will remain the same, but people will not listen to it.

it will be acceptable reason for me , if we had the scriptures which written in his time , actually many verses of OT was very clearly writen after his death by the hand of those jews whom moses (pbuh) predict that they will provoking the God to anger with the work of thier hands
**and evil will befall you in the latter days, for you will do that which is evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him to anger with the work of your hands.” **
isn’t OT is the work of thier hands !

Second, Mohammad made the same prediction about Muslims.

Narrated Zahdam bin Mudrab:
I heard Imran bin Husain saying, “The Prophet said, 'The best people are those living in my generation, then those coming after them, and then those coming after (the second generation).” Imran said “I do not know whether the Prophet mentioned two or three generations after your present generation. The Prophet added, 'There will be some people after you, who will be dishonest and will not be trustworthy and will give witness (evidences) without being asked to give witness, and will vow but will not fulfill their vows, and fatness will appear among them.” Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 3, Book 48, Number 819]

So according to the logic used here, the Koran is corrupt too, because Mohammad claimed that Muslims would become corrupt.

i think that i decleared my point allrady , quran for muslims is the book which revealed to the prophet we believe in , not the book which later genearations authorised , but the OT contains additions from later generations

Again, that doesn’t say the scripture will be corrupted, let alone that all of scripture will be corrupted. Jeremiah is doing what other prophets before and after him did, which was accuse the leadership of corruption. The scribes were teachers, and hence Jeremiah is attacking the corrupt teachers in Israel at that time (and who would still be there around Christ’s time). So it does confirm Moses’s prediction, but not any prediction of corrupt scripture, but rather that the Jewish culture would become corrupt and not obey the laws of God.

The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: “How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us’? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)”

what ! doesn’t it say that scripture corrupted ?
well , i respect your view . but honesty i read the otherwise

Keep in mind Islamic apologists claim all the books of scripture were tarnished - why then would whoever did the tarnishing leave these bits in? Wouldn’t it make sense to remove such warnings? The entire argument is of itself conspiratorial in nature.

may be it was happened , so that you can realize the truth about your holy book , i think that the alterations happened in specific verses , or happened by the additions of human desire in the name of God .
the corruptions happened through the time by many persons , not happened to the whole scripture suddenly by one person

But as I stated before, nowhere in the New Testament did Christ or any apostle ever argue with, “Well you Jews corrupted your scripture.” They used what came before to verify who they were and what they were doing. The only time you hear someone claim that what came before was tarnished in any way, or encourage people to ignore what came before and listen to what comes now, is at the advent of different groups such as Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Oneness Pentecostals…and Muslims.

what about Bart Ehrman ?

 

[seraphime2008]

There is many evidence that Proves that the Quran is the Word of God, there are the Historic facts contained in the Quran, the Scienctific, and many more. I will Briefly narrate one of them. (This is my post from the Islam’s Plagiarized Christian Origins thread. Post #141.)

See first we have to assertain that the Quran is the word of God. We have to put the Quran to many tests. For a second ignore all other scriptures as hard as it may be and test the Quran alone without prejudice which i know for many christians its extremely hard, but only when that is done you will see the truth. The Quran has placed many challeges towards people and yet till today no one has been able to prove the quran wrong. Also, the Muslim Scholars were always asked as to what was Iram, the City that the Quran mentions. A Christian Convert, Gary Miller, in his short essay tells us here

The City of Iram

The Qur’an mentions a city by the name of Iram (89:7). The city of
Iram has been unknown to History, so unknown that even Muslim
commentators, out of embarrassment or feeling apologetic for their
religion, have commented on this mention of the city in the Qur’an as
being perhaps figurative, that Iram was possibly a man and not a
city.

In 1973, the excavation in Syria at the site of the ancient city of
Eblus uncovered the largest collection of cuneiform writings on clay
tablets ever assembled. In fact, the library discovered in Eblus
contains more clay tablets that are more than four thousand years old
than all the other tablets combined from all other sites.

Interestingly enough, you will find the details in the National
Geographic of 1978 which confirms that in those tablets the city of
Iram is mentioned. The people of Eblus used to do business with the
people of Iram. So here in 1973, comes confirmation of the fact that,
after all, there really was an ancient city by that name, wherever it
was. How did it find its way into the Qur’an, we might ask? "
So how did this City find it’s way into the Qur’an. Obviously, many people with can come up with many theories, but just as you Christians follow many things based on faith alone, we do not. The actual discovery of these Tablets is just one example that tell us this Book is no ordinary book, but the Word of God.

I can give more examples if you like. This was just one that immediately popped to my mind.

Hei…my pagan ancestors also had legend or story circulating until now that there was a huge lake besides the mountain near the city where I live. No one could ever see any evidence of it now or even at their time. But later on, the expert of archeology came and study the soil there and later on conclude that there was a great lake in that particular place that exist around 260.000 years ago…! Now…I have to thank my ancestors who didn’t claim their pagan faith to be divine and make that legend the proof of what they have believed. And, really I am not joking about the story!

 

[Christos]

Hei…my pagan ancestors also had legend or story circulating until now that there was a huge lake besides the mountain near the city where I live. No one could ever see any evidence of it now or even at their time. But later on, the expert of archeology came and study the soil there and later on conclude that there was a great lake in that particular place that exist around 260.000 years ago…! Now…I have to thank my ancestors who didn’t claim their pagan faith to be divine and make that legend the proof of what they have believed. And, really I am not joking about the story!

Just saying there was a lake and having it proved there was, and saying that the name of the lake was so-and-so, and then having it proved ancient documents/tablets saying that there really was a lake so-and-so there, would prove it. It’s the actual name of the City that made the entire difference. When you dont care, however, and are just here to simply say others wrong, even when they are right, it doesnt matter. By the way, what did happen to your pagan ancestors if you dont mind me asking.

 

[seraphime2008]

Explain this to me, the recount in each of the four Gospels was different. You may argue that just oral tradition reaching that person may have been different than to the other. Then, if these Gospels were truly Inspired by God, then it would not matter about the oral tradition reaching these individuals because God would still inspire them to write as it had happened, and not differently. However, if the Bible had been changed, or had interpolations, and had these many changes done towards it, then it is understandable that yes, these Gospels were inspired by God, but other people had changed it.

This is both my answer and something for you to ponder over.

Nah…do i have to explain something that u could read ur self in the bible, that Jesus in all the accounts were brought to Pilate, to the Jews council, later on died in the cross. Did they wrote something different? Now a muslim member here have tried to explain that Jesus indeed was crucified, but later on could escape and ran away to India. And now ur version which is even more ridiculuous says that the man on the cross was Judas. There were so many people at that time witnessing the account, don’t u think that if it was Judas replaced Jesus he would scream, rebelled and said many things. People would notice his reaction, and of course also Pilate and the Romans, and so the story would be different. Why would Christianity be spread if it only based on lies, the apostles and many early Christian have sacrificed their life, only for lies? Will u find any story telling people are sacrificing their lifes for lies?
Compare the story to ur so called propeht, all his companions were given rewards from the booty of the war. They immediately fought each other after ur prophet died!

 

[seraphime2008]

Please could you show me where in Genesis 19 did the daughters of Lot, or Lot himself get punished. Please show me where in Genesis 35 did Reuben or Bilha get punished. Please show me where in Genesis 38 was Judas or his daughter-in-law punished. When Judas called his daughet-in-law to be punished she showed him his signet, his bracelet and staff, and after that he dared not do anything to her.

Please show me where in II Samuels 13 and 16 were the two sons of David punished for one raping his sister and the other his fathers concubines. One brother (Amnon) was murderd by the other Absalom two years after the event. That too after Absalom himself had commited incest so who was he to kill another?

Why are u so unsatisfied that somebody were not punished? Your view of the bible is that it supposed to be narrations that people were punished due to their sins? How bitter and remorseful are u ?
The account u mentioned above were stories that was part of the history of Israel. Whether they’re punished or not, the story of them will take the focus from the main story of the leading characters who become the witness of how God involved in their lifes. Can u just see it enough that God has chastised the persons that He really cares and He chose that were the leading characters? By that we have to see if we were to be chosen by God, we have to accept that we will be chastised. Not like some kind of other prophet that didn’t belong to the line of Judaism, who were eventually given so many priveleges instead of chastisement.

No the Quran does not say anywhere that the problems in marriage is just sex. If any problem arose that it should be resolved. Yes, a woman may believe she does not need another man to solve her problems, but if a man was willing to divorce her three times, with or without a second thought, then it means that he is not worthy of her. Therfore, she culd get married again if she likes. If by chance this marriage too fails, then she is once again single. Obviously, it is assumed that a certain lengthy time has passed, possible a few months maybe years. At this point the man has a chance to rethink everything and if he then believes that he will be able to treat her in a respetful manner and is willing to accept her, and the same for the woman, then it is permissible for them to get married. If you’ve ever had a girlfriend, or have been married, then you may understand me when i mention this.

Perchance, I had a girlfriend. We had lots of problems between us and we broke up. I will ignore her, or may still talk to her, but things will more or less be two seperate paths between us. (I’m speaking of complete breakup. Minor break up from fights could be considered the first divorce, a lenghtier breakup or time to ourselves from a large fight, and a complete breakup when we’ve had enough.) However, as soon as she begins to go out with someone else, which she should be allowed, it would cause me to have these regrets, remorse, and other feelings arise within me, and will bring me to new light and hope that if in the future we got back together, I would do things differnetly. Im not saying that this is certain to happen, these feelings of regret, but they are morelikely to happen after she has been with someone else.

Note: This is just a comparison. Doesn’t mean that everything in this story is allowed in Islam (example bf/gf, premarriage relations)

I still don’t get ur explanation. The man can actully divorce the woman eventhough they still love each other because he feels that he is not good enough for her to give her what she needs in matter of material needs. He has given much effort to try to get enough income, but he eventually fails several times. So let’s assume that they finally split at ur so called 3rd divorce. It;s only ur assumstion that this woman should be already with someone else, and it’s case base. This woman might think that she needs time to get married with someone else. And when her previous husband become successful, do you think that this woman should marry another man first to be able to get marry to the prev husband? Obviously this case will make her impossible to get reconciliation with her prev husband because on what base that this marriage can be accepted when she obviously has to lie to another man about the reason of marrying, because she is to divorce him later on, to get married with the prev husband? Ridiculous!

My only aswer is: no divorce at all eventhough ur husband were failing to give enough money! But ur so called noble religion gives permission to get divorce at this material problem. Ur religion doesn’t tell how to survive, endure and solve the problems, but to give up and just think about running away from problems. Of course it’s the most convinient way…

Btw, I still view that in the case of divorce, women are inferion to men in ur religion!

 

[seraphime2008]

Just saying there was a lake and having it proved there was, and saying that the name of the lake was so-and-so, and then having it proved ancient documents/tablets saying that there really was a lake so-and-so there, would prove it. It’s the actual name of the City that made the entire difference. When you dont care, however, and are just here to simply say others wrong, even when they are right, it doesnt matter. By the way, what did happen to your pagan ancestors if you dont mind me asking.

Maaan,… why would it be different? the lake was there 260000 years ago, which was too old to be recognized by human being to be named? Ha…ha…even if the ancestors clearly said the name was so…and so…what would be the proof of their faith as the divine one? They worship the mountain, the forest and whatever gods they think inhabit their misterious territory.

What happen to my ancestor? Only God knows. I am not going to assume that they were all damned to hell. The one who doesn’t have the knowledge shouldn’t be judged by that knowledge. What about urs?

 

[Christos]

I still don’t get ur explanation. The man can actully divorce the woman eventhough they still love each other because he feels that he is not good enough for her to give her what she needs in matter of material needs. He has given much effort to try to get enough income, but he eventually fails several times. So let’s assume that they finally split at ur so called 3rd divorce. It;s only ur assumstion that this woman should be already with someone else, and it’s case base. This woman might think that she needs time to get married with someone else. And when her previous husband become successful, do you think that this woman should marry another man first to be able to get marry to the prev husband? Obviously this case will make her impossible to get reconciliation with her prev husband because on what base that this marriage can be accepted when she obviously has to lie to another man about the reason of marrying, because she is to divorce him later on, to get married with the prev husband? Ridiculous!

My only aswer is: no divorce at all eventhough ur husband were failing to give enough money! But ur so called noble religion gives permission to get divorce at this material problem. Ur religion doesn’t tell how to survive, endure and solve the problems, but to give up and just think about running away from problems. Of course it’s the most convinient way…

Btw, I still view that in the case of divorce, women are inferion to men in ur religion!

Really, its a really sad case if a woman divorces a man becaus he is poor/unsuccessful. Islam, tells us to try to work things through and stay together and stay strong for as long as possible. Btw, if a woman ever left me because i was poor/unsuccesful and when i became succesful she wanted to come back, do you think i would want to. You have to be fair to the man too in his choice, now your wanting to give more choice to the female. As to your opinion on women being inferior to men, they are not, but your opinion is still your opinion. In a marriage, each party has it’s responsibilities. If a woman wants to get a divorce from her husband and she is justified, just simply ask the husband and he has to give it. If he does not give it however, then go to a judge and the judge will terminate the marriage. Simple, but women are fragile beings, its in their nature (obviously, we have much stronger women now then we had before, but majority are still fragile when it comes to emotional issues. If a woman were to have the power of divorce she may possibly divorce him everytime they got into a fight, like wise (back to the bf/gf comparison) many times, the gf will temporarily breakup with the bf, but then get back together. The bf may do so also, but he does it mroe sparingly, he usually thinks it through. You may call this women being inferior to men, but the thousands of women embracing islam each year, do not believe so. Majority of the converts to Islam are women. If as you, Christians and the western nations, believe that the women in Islam are subjugated and not given enough rights, then why is it that they are the ones converting to islam in larger numbers than men.

 

[seraphime2008]

Really, its a really sad case if a woman divorces a man becaus he is poor/unsuccessful. Islam, tells us to try to work things through and stay together and stay strong for as long as possible. Btw, if a woman ever left me because i was poor/unsuccesful and when i became succesful she wanted to come back, do you think i would want to. You have to be fair to the man too in his choice, now your wanting to give more choice to the female. As to your opinion on women being inferior to men, they are not, but your opinion is still your opinion. In a marriage, each party has it’s responsibilities. If a woman wants to get a divorce from her husband and she is justified, just simply ask the husband and he has to give it. If he does not give it however, then go to a judge and the judge will terminate the marriage. Simple, but women are fragile beings, its in their nature (obviously, we have much stronger women now then we had before, but majority are still fragile when it comes to emotional issues. If a woman were to have the power of divorce she may possibly divorce him everytime they got into a fight, like wise (back to the bf/gf comparison) many times, the gf will temporarily breakup with the bf, but then get back together. The bf may do so also, but he does it mroe sparingly, he usually thinks it through. You may call this women being inferior to men, but the thousands of women embracing islam each year, do not believe so. Majority of the converts to Islam are women. If as you, Christians and the western nations, believe that the women in Islam are subjugated and not given enough rights, then why is it that they are the ones converting to islam in larger numbers than men.

U obviously doesn’t address my question. I don’t know whether u’re lying or trying to escape! My prev question was:

The man can actully divorce the woman eventhough they still love each other because he feels that he is not good enough for her to give her what she needs in matter of material needs. He has given much effort to try to get enough income, but he eventually fails several times. So let’s assume that they finally split at ur so called 3rd divorce. It;s only ur assumstion that this woman should be already with ]someone else, and it’s case base. This woman might think that she needs time to get married with someone else And when her previous husband become successful, do you think that this woman should marry another man first to be able to get marry to the prev husband? .Obviously this case will make her impossible to get reconciliation with her prev husband because on what base that this marriage can be accepted when she obviously has to lie to another man about the reason of marrying, because she is to divorce him later on, to get married with the prev husband? Ridiculous!

And why is it impossible that they finally want to get back together?
It’s ur islamic teaching that a marriage can be invalid if a husband can;t give a wife his income to support her by at least 3 or perhaps 6 months?

I don’t have the eagerness to discuss the women problems in Islam. Btw I am a woman, I can see clearly as it’s about women that ur religion don’t treat me the same as man 'cos we have discussed it toooo many times here. Never muslim ever convinced me that u’re just . Btw I live in Indonesia, I can see many women were victims of men here because they have to accept the will of their husband of marrying another women. If they stay they will suffer, if they want to get divorce they will loose some rights and be ridiculed.

And about those women converted…poor souls! Indeed some people were gullible.

 

[Christos]

The man can actully divorce the woman eventhough they still love each other because he feels that he is not good enough for her to give her what she needs in matter of material needs. He has given much effort to try to get enough income, but he eventually fails several times. So let’s assume that they finally split at ur so called 3rd divorce. It;s only ur assumstion that this woman should be already with ]someone else, and it’s case base. This woman might think that she needs time to get married with someone else And when her previous husband become successful, do you think that this woman should marry another man first to be able to get marry to the prev husband? .Obviously this case will make her impossible to get reconciliation with her prev husband because on what base that this marriage can be accepted when she obviously has to lie to another man about the reason of marrying, because she is to divorce him later on, to get married with the prev husband? Ridiculous!

First of all that would be wrong in the case of the husband, he is should not simply divorce her beacuse he thinks he is not good enough for her material needs. (I actually misunderstood it the first time, I thought you meant that the woman left the man. I apologize). He should continue to work his hardest to give the wife what she needs. He should speak to the wife about their issues (obviously this should be done in marriage) and if she is of the opinion that she is content with what she has, why should the man worry, but he should still try his hardest to give her more than what she is currently content with. (Its called gifts). However, if she thinks that this is not enough and demands more from him, what is the man to do. If he still loves her, and she is too selfish to realise that he is trying his hardest, and then they part, then it continues with my previous post. I hope you are content with this answer.

And why is it impossible that they finally want to get back together?
It’s ur islamic teaching that a marriage can be invalid if a husband can;t give a wife his income to support her by at least 3 or perhaps 6 months?

I don’t have the eagerness to discuss the women problems in Islam. Btw I am a woman, I can see clearly as it’s about women that ur religion don’t treat me the same as man 'cos we have discussed it toooo many times here. Never muslim ever convinced me that u’re just . Btw I live in Indonesia, I can see many women were victims of men here because they have to accept the will of their husband of marrying another women. If they stay they will suffer, if they want to get divorce they will loose some rights and be ridiculed.

And about those women converted…poor souls! Indeed some people were gullible.

Can you show me where that teaching is please. I’m interested in a reference not just a statement. Thanks.

Also, remember that because a person does something doesnt mean a religion alows it. I know of the perversion some people in the Muslim countries have done, in keeping their woman under-educated, and taking away their rights that Islam has given them, but Islam has given them the rights.

Furthermore, your bible has taken away your rights to speak in the church

I Corinthians 14: 34-35
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Wow, it is a SHAME for women to speak in the church.