Question on Islam -- round 5

[seraphime2008]

he said said that to prohibit the muslims from raising their heads before the imam in the salat
and to emphasize on straighten our raws in salat
and to not looking up to sky while we are in salat

Why? What’s wrong with looking up to sky?
what’s wrong with rasing heads before imam?
what’s wong if the raws were not straight?

And mostly why have to lie by terrorizing people, why have to create an aura of terror everytime Muhammad wanted to discipline his followers? Is that why most muslims can’t see the truth because they already feel terrorized to see that things is not the way it’s told to them?

 

[Hadi]

Why? What’s wrong with looking up to sky?
what’s wrong with rasing heads before imam?
what’s wong if the raws were not straight?

And mostly why have to lie by terrorizing people, why have to create an aura of terror everytime Muhammad wanted to discipline his followers? Is that why most muslims can’t see the truth because they already feel terrorized to see that things is not the way it’s told to them?

Why is the Bible terrorizing people that if they reject God , they will burn in hell.

 

[seraphime2008]

Why is the Bible terrorizing people that if they reject God , they will burn in hell.

IT’s not terrorizing as u view because we do believe as having faith that there’s hell afterlife for those who have deliberately put themselves against God. But terrorizing as what Muhammad did that they will become donkey when looking upon the sky? That’s not educating the people nor accepting or estimating that people have their own sense.

 

[Hadi]

IT’s not terrorizing as u view because we do believe as having faith that there’s hell afterlife for those who have deliberately put themselves against God. But terrorizing as what Muhammad did that they will become donkey when looking upon the sky? That’s not educating the people nor accepting or estimating that people have their own sense.

you will find in the Jewish tradition that God turned many people into donkeys and apes… what do you say about that…

again, these are not part of the Quran…the only book Muslims believe to have no error in it…other books have (and in fact must have) errors ,

there is a business in transmitting ahadiths called “Targheeb and Tarheeb” which means "Exhortation and dissuasion " where a scholar invents a hadith to bring his students closer in doing something , or far from doing it.

 

[seraphime2008]

you will find in the Jewish tradition that God turned many people into donkeys and apes… what do you say about that…

again, these are not part of the Quran…the only book Muslims believe to have no error in it…other books have (and in fact must have) errors ,

there is a business in transmitting ahadiths called “Targheeb and Tarheeb” which means "Exhortation and dissuasion " where a scholar invents a hadith to bring his students closer in doing something , or far from doing it.

Sorry, but I am not into Jewish tradition. Jesus even condemned several Jewish tradition.

But eventhough that it’s not part of Quran, it’s part of Hadits that also play an important role in putting the practice of muslims. As muslims view that it has errors while Koran has not, I supposed it has been discussed several times here that Koran as the most legitimate source of islamic teaching does have errors in it, but then being err or not has been a matter of subjectiveness for the muslims because they won’t accept error in it.

And again eventhough u said that hadits are supposed to be judged whether it’s make closer or far from the intended meaning, or contain errors as u might see it now, why had it not ever been extracted from the chaff or err from the beginning? And why several narrations do appeared in other collection, even the ones that u resist to be true were found in several hadits?

 

[Hadi]

Sorry, but I am not into Jewish tradition. Jesus even condemned several Jewish tradition.

But eventhough that it’s not part of Quran, it’s part of Hadits that also play an important role in putting the practice of muslims. As muslims view that it has errors while Koran has not, I supposed it has been discussed several times here that Koran as the most legitimate source of islamic teaching does have errors in it, but then being err or not has been a matter of subjectiveness for the muslims because they won’t accept error in it.

And again eventhough u said that hadits are supposed to be judged whether it’s make closer or far from the intended meaning, or contain errors as u might see it now, why had it not ever been extracted from the chaff or err from the beginning? And why several narrations do appeared in other collection, even the ones that u resist to be true were found in several hadits?

I said “Muslims believe only the Quran contains no error” ,of course you disagree,but the point is ,other Islamic books contain errors…as for not getting rid of these things, in the early Islamic centuries, , it was a plural society of different schools of thoughts and sects ,each has it’s own unique tradition and doctrines…so disagreements on religion and tradition (which includes hadiths) were always part of the Islamic Ummah…Shias have their own hadiths , Sunnis have their own ,yet, in each group ,you find rationalists vs Usoslis arguments …which also shaped the third and forth century,like the Mutazilah with their famous “logic over transmission” argument…meaning to judge ahadiths by logic and not by their transmission,
there was an interesting group in the 3rd century who believed, once saved always saved, and salvation by faith alone ,(800 years before the Christian reformation) ,that’s just an example of the diversity of the early Islamic Ummah ,

 

[seraphime2008]

I said “Muslims believe only the Quran contains no error” ,of course you disagree,but the point is ,other Islamic books contain errors…as for not getting rid of these things, in the early Islamic centuries, , it was a plural society of different schools of thoughts and sects ,each has it’s own unique tradition and doctrines…so disagreements on religion and tradition (which includes hadiths) were always part of the Islamic Ummah…Shias have their own hadiths , Sunnis have their own ,yet, in each group ,you find rationalists vs Usoslis arguments …which also shaped the third and forth century,like the Mutazilah with their famous “logic over transmission” argument…meaning to judge ahadiths by logic and not by their transmission,
there was an interesting group in the 3rd century who believed, once saved always saved, and salvation by faith alone ,(800 years before the Christian reformation) ,that’s just an example of the diversity of the early Islamic Ummah ,

Then it only stresses my thought that Islam cannot stand on Koran alone but at the same time confuses their own people of the things that they missed or they didn’t understand. It’s like a “circle of evil” that has no end nor beginning…

 

[elwill]

Why? What’s wrong with looking up to sky?
what’s wrong with rasing heads before imam?
what’s wong if the raws were not straight?

in another haddeth
Volume 1, Book 11, Number 689:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "The Imam is (appointed) to be followed. So do not differ from him, bow when he bows, and say, “Rabbana-lakal hamd” if he says “Sami’a-l-lahu Liman hamida”; and if he prostrates, prostrate (after him), and if he prays sitting, pray sitting all together, and straighten the rows for the prayer, as the straightening of the rows is amongst those things which make your prayer a correct and perfect one. (See Hadith No. 657).

in another hadeeth
Jabir bin Samurah (May Allah be pleased with them) reported: The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) came out to us (once) and said, "Why do you not stand in rows as the angels do before their Rubb?’’ We asked: "O Messenger of Allah! how do the angels stand in rows before their Rubb?’’ He (PBUH) replied, "They complete each row beginning with the first and filling all the gaps.’’[Muslim].

1. Abu Mas`ud (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) used to gently pat our shoulders when we were standing in rows at the time of Salat and say,** "Keep (the rows) straight; do not differ from each other lest your hearts should suffer from discord. **Let those of you who are mature and prudent be nearer to me, and then those who are next to them.’’[Muslim].

i think you can find here the answer for 2 questions you asked

the third question :What’s wrong with looking up to sky?

in salat we standing between the hands of Allah, the Lord of the worlds. How can we be busy with something else ?
in our salat we keep our eyes focused on the place of sujuud. This helps us gain more concentration

And mostly why have to lie by terrorizing people, why have to create an aura of terror everytime Muhammad wanted to discipline his followers? Is that why most muslims can’t see the truth because they already feel terrorized to see that things is not the way it’s told to them?

fear of Allah is a very strong indicator of faith in Allah and an important indicator of what to expect in the eternal Hereafter. The only way to safety is founded upon fearful awareness of Allah and scrupulous caution.

It is necessary that we should have fear of Allah (Subhanahu wa ta’ala) and, at the same time, must have hope in His Mercy and Rewards. We do Da’wah as best as we can, not only out of fear of Him that if we do not do it based on the Qur’an and the Sunnah, Allah (Subhanahu wa ta’ala) will not only reject our deeds but also will punish us. Moreover, we do it the way the Prophet (sallallâhu ‘alayhi wasallam) did it out of hope that by doing righteous deeds, for His Pleasure, He will reward us.

 

[Hadi]

Then it only stresses my thought that Islam cannot stand on Koran alone .

Can Christianity stand on the Bible Alone ?

 

[seraphime2008]

Can Christianity stand on the Bible Alone ?

For Catholics no…but for the other Christian yes…but different to Islam, in Chatolic we don’t have diverse teachings or diverse concept nor disagreement towards principles.

So the problems still lie in Islam

 

[Hadi]

Thanks Elwill,

see also how Moses reacted first when he heard the voice of God ,he didn’t look up in the sky

Exodus 3:5-6

5Then He said, “Do not come near here; remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.”
6He said also, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob " **Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God. **

here is a question for seraphime2008

what is wrong with wearing sandals in a holy place? why does it matter ?

 

[seraphime2008]

Thanks Elwill,

see also how Moses reacted first when he heard the voice of God ,he didn’t look up in the sky

Exodus 3:5-6

5Then He said, “Do not come near here; remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.”
6He said also, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob " **Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God. **

here is a question for seraphime2008

what is wrong with wearing sandals in a holy place? why does it matter ?

I am rushing home. God’s will, I will comeback to address this…

 

[Hadi]

For Catholics no…but for the other Christian yes…but different to Islam, in Chatolic we don’t have diverse teachings or diverse concept nor disagreement towards principles.

So the problems still lie in Islam

now you narrowed it down by saying “Catholics” ,instead of “Christianity” ,but when it comes to Islam you say “Islam” and not mentioning a specific group …

 

[sedonaman]

Why is the Bible terrorizing people that if they reject God , they will burn in hell.

This is no explanation. First off, it is not considered correct debate to answer a question with a question. Second, why the Bible does or says what it does is completely irrelevant to the questions about Islam. Why can’t you defend Islam without dragging Christianity into the discussion? Is it because the Bible serves as a criterion for determining truth and falsehood of Islam? If so, then you are admitting that the Bible is true; and, therefore, Islam and Mohammed are false since the Bible and the Qur’an are diametrically opposed to each other on the essentials of faith, i.e. God, Christ, salvation etc. If not, then I repeat that what this red herring approach amounts to is a poor attempt to drag Christianity down to the level of Islam. Islam should stand on its own two feet and not rely on other religions for validation [that it later declared false, BTW].

So, for once, just once, try to defend Islam’s position on an issue without mentioning Christianity.

 

[Hadi]

This is no explanation. .

you obviously thought I was serious in asking that question ,I just wanted to be in the same level as seraphime2008 and see his response…

 

[jakasaki]

you obviously thought I was serious in asking that question ,I just wanted to be in the same level as seraphime2008 and see his response…

In all honesty Hadi, I can’t answer for other posters here, but **I **never know when your are 'serious" or not or what is it that you are seeking.

If I may ask and not wanting your zip code or your home address , from what part of the world are you posting from?

And also, what is it that you seek here on CAF?

To learn about Christianity?

To learn about Judaism?

Or to defend islam and mohamad?

Thanks!

 

[Hadi]

In all honesty Hadi, I can’t answer for other posters here, but **I **never know when your are 'serious" or not or what is it that you are seeking.

because most people here think Muslims think alike…just because I put “Islam” as my religion does not mean that I look like any typical Muslim in the world…

If I may ask and not wanting your zip code or your home address , from what part of the world are you posting from?

And also, what is it that you seek here on CAF?

To learn about Christianity?

To learn about Judaism?

Or to defend islam and mohamad?

Thanks!

I’m from the middle east… and I’m here to learn about Christians and how different they are in dealing with issues in religion and life in general…but most importantly, I educate myself about my own religion …,sometimes after reading some topics here…my love for Islam becomes stronger , and sometimes, I have to stop for a moment , and think to myself, maybe I’m in the wrong religion and should hurry up and join the right one…seriously , that what I think

I also joined other forums to learn about other religions , I have been attracted in particular to Judaism in a way that I appreciate it every time I learn something new about it …

but to be honest,this forum is very addictive compared to others.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Mutazilah had strong influence on Sunni , Shias schools and even Jewish (Karaites) and Sufis thinkers…see their influence on the famous scholar AlQazali (5th century)… you can also read the introduction of Ibn hanbal’s Musnad about the hadiths of his time …also read on how Imam Shaafi’s dealt with the issues of the changes in society and culture vs the Ahadiths…the point is ,these were Omayyad and Abbasids times , not modern times.

Yes, and despite all this, famous Muslim scholars form that time period (not modern times) still quoted hadith sources, often to justify schools of thought regarding the Koran.

Again, it’s one thing to admit the Koran as a definite source of a religion - I have no problem with that. It’s another to either…

1. 
   *]Completely ignore hadith as if they never existed in the first place.
   *]Play the game of “love them one moment, leave them another,” where you accept a hadith that proves your point, but when someone takes from the same hadith source, even a sahih hadith, something slightly embarrassing or one that contradicts your point, then you give the blanket statement, “Oh don’t trust hadith.” I know that you, Hadi, have cited hadith in the past, so you have to admit the hadith have some use. I’m not accusing you of intellectual dishonesty or trying to “call you out” on something, just making that point.
   
   And again, I recognize that within Islamic scholarship there is a science to how certain hadith sources and chains are trustworthy or legit. The problem is we don’t get that argumentation when the subject of hadith. For example, when Planten did the “Oh don’t trust hadith” argument, I asked him to explain why those specific hadiths cited could not be trusted, and he didn’t even bother with a response. That is what frustrates so many Christians on this forum, and what hurts Christian-Muslim dialogues on CAF.
   

   because most people here think Muslims think alike…just because I put “Islam” as my religion does not mean that I look like any typical Muslim in the world…

   People often have that misconception, which I think is wrong. Every individual Muslim is still an individual, and I don’t think people should have a cookie cutter approach to every person. I have close personal friends who are Muslims, and we certainly get along to a great degree.
   

   but to be honest,this forum is very addictive compared to others.

   I agree I’m actually trying to get a fellow Orthodox friend over here, he’s currently wading through Christian Forums.

 

[seraphime2008]

you obviously thought I was serious in asking that question ,I just wanted to be in the same level as seraphime2008 and see his response…

No…u just to want to escape the matter and can’t seem to see the subtleness yet obvious problems…

 

[seraphime2008]

now you narrowed it down by saying “Catholics” ,instead of “Christianity” ,but when it comes to Islam you say “Islam” and not mentioning a specific group …

See…u can’t seem to address the matter properly.U said koran needs complimentary by hadist that different sects and different group produce their own hadits, their own interpretation and emphasize, none of them ever claim to ever been able to base themselves without hadits. Then there lies the problems If u compare to Christian , because:
-the Protestant do base themselves on bible only, sola scriptura. They don’t need sort of hadits.

If u compare to Catholics:
-The problems still lie in Islam, because the Catholic church do have coherent and indisputable teachings within her eventhough we have more than sola scriptura, that is the tradition