Question on Islam

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In a discussion with my Muslim friend today I told him how I don’t like that Islam claims it is right and us Christians are wrong. I asked how can something created 600 years with no possible first source witness to the account of Jesus’s life and events that occurred during that time.

His answer was that Islam was always there, before any other religion, just it was never named. I was just wondering if this is what is taught in Islam, and why?
 
YUP ~

That’s what they say.

They believe from Adam to all the prophets were “muslims” and that includes Isa/Esa.

They use this becasue the word “islam” means submission and a muslim is one who “submits”.

So, the claim is that from Adam on, all prophets since they “submited” to the will of God, they are muslims.

:rolleyes:
 
jakasaki said:
Az-Zumar Sura #39 Makkah

11 Say (O Muhammad): Lo! I am commanded to worship Allah, making religion pure for Him (only).

**12 And I am commanded to be the first of those who are muslims (surrender unto Him). **

searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=39&translator=4&mac=
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Thanks, Jakasaki.
  1. Does anyone know what the early commentators said about this passage?
  2. Where can we find explicit Qur’anic testimony to the (ostensible) Muslim status of Adam, Abraham, and all the other patriarchs?
(If what we have here is such a damning discrepancy in the text of a self-proclaimed God-given book, I want to be sure that it can be proven beyond all doubt.)
 
klmblitz4 said:
In a discussion with my Muslim friend today I told him how I don’t like that Islam claims it is right and us Christians are wrong. I asked how can something created 600 years with no possible first source witness to the account of Jesus’s life and events that occurred during that time.

His answer was that Islam was always there, before any other religion, just it was never named. I was just wondering if this is what is taught in Islam, and why?
Click to expand...
Islamic people i know vary on interpretation of the Quran.

Your friend seems to be consistent with my own understanding.

Form my own reading the Quran divides Christians and Jews, offering some are not in error.

The Quran offers all believers in the G-d of Abraham (pbuh) are Muslims or Muslima, male and female true believers submitting them selves to G-d.

The Quran offers Torah, psalms and gospel are all religions given by Allah / G-d but men have tainted them.

The word muslim is Arabic so it is natural that people of other language would not have known the word but were true to its meaning.

This has also been consistent in all Muslims i have shared with if they were willing to chat and not fob me to a scholar.

As to where a Muslim (of the Islamic religion) will stand today on Christians & Jews being in error varies a little but most i have met have been taught Christians and Jews are all always wrong.

Where i live there are some exceptions humbled to offer we all seek the same Allah just differently. Most are keen to mix with other Christians and Jews as in the secular world they hold some common values for society as a whole IE anti abortion homosexual unions etc.
There are some who keep well clear of Interfaith stating they will never change. In my experience they know least of any religion including Islam but for what they found their parents doing.

PS i though your question to your friend was very well put from a Christian perspective but doubt it would shake a Islamic religion person.

Bless you and i hope this helps
 
Steven_John said:
Islamic people i know vary on interpretation of the Quran.
Click to expand...
Sola scriptura… such a destructive idea!
Your friend seems to be consistent with my own understanding.
Click to expand...
Form my own reading the Quran divides Christians and Jews, offering some are not in error.
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That doesn’t make any sense. Jews and Christians by definition deny the prophethood of Muhammad, so they must all be wrong.
The Quran offers all believers in the G-d of Abraham (pbuh) are Muslims or Muslima, male and female true believers submitting them selves to G-d.
Click to expand...
What this really means is “those who we call Muslim for public-relations purposes but who wouldn’t dream of following Muhammad if he showed up when they were alive”.
The Quran offers Torah, psalms and gospel are all religions given by Allah / G-d but men have tainted them.
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With no evidence to demonstrate this allegation, only the gullible will fall for it.
The word muslim is Arabic so it is natural that people of other language would not have known the word but were true to its meaning.
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If being a Muslim is accepting the prophethood of Muhammad–which it most certainly is now, and has always been throughout history–no one before Muhammad could be accurately described as a Muslim.
This has also been consistent in all Muslims i have shared with if they were willing to chat and not fob me to a scholar.
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They’re equivocating on the definition of the term Muslim then.
PS i though your question to your friend was very well put from a Christian perspective but doubt it would shake a Islamic religion person.
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That’s because Muslims first believe the Qur’an to be of divine origin, then force all other information to align with this presupposition.

PS: I’m not directing the above at you personally, but rather at those whose opinions you cite.

God bless you too.
 
Bless you, my thoughts are close to yours in many places
Trebor135 said:
Sola scriptura… such a destructive idea!
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Amen the modern Islamic religions show this as does Christian history. It is maybe possible it does help show the heart of those who interpret it.
Yahooshua (pbwh) i have been told is narrated as explaining he came to divide not unite so maybe it is of G-ds will.
That doesn’t make any sense. Jews and Christians by definition deny the prophethood of Muhammad, so they must all be wrong.
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I agree but for when reading the verses i have not quoted but can maybe find if you would like them, i took their context as addressing of people who have not had the Quran.
What this really means is “those who we call Muslim for public-relations purposes but who wouldn’t dream of following Muhammad if he showed up when they were alive”.
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I understand this to contain your opinion, without offering my own, i was speaking from a linguistic perspective.
With no evidence to demonstrate this allegation, only the gullible will fall for it.
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My intention as you offered in your post was not for persuading anyone. I will seek to read it some more and find verses for you. i am a poor reader and maybe will take me some time, but for G-d helping me.
If being a Muslim is accepting the prophethood of Muhammad–which it most certainly is now, and has always been throughout history–no one before Muhammad could be accurately described as a Muslim.
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Yes and his followers would agree, i think
please remember i spoke from linguistic position to help the one who asked understand the “logic” underpinning the claim
They’re equivocating on the definition of the term Muslim then.
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maybe some were but my understanding is from language (Muslims are those who submit to Allah) Christians who speak Arabic are Muslims. I have gone over this in relation to the word 'Allah" being used by Arabic speaking Christians they have told me in arabic bibles arabic words are used.
So given that i had the chats your assumption they are equivocating on the definition of the term Muslim may or may not be correct in all cases but understand form the perspective of followers of Muhammad (pbuh) you should be correct.
That’s because Muslims first believe the Qur’an to be of divine origin, then force all other information to align with this presupposition.
Click to expand...
Exactly my point, to know this helps for better conversation. In better words i would say they are doing as they found their fathers or friends doing.
PS: I’m not directing the above at you personally, but rather at those whose opinions you cite.
Click to expand...
Appreciated very much that you reads me as i wrote, and clarified your response it helps in good conversation to bring truth that stands both inside and outside of our being.

May G-d bless and guide you and yours
 
Trebor135 said:
Thanks, Jakasaki.
  1. Does anyone know what the early commentators said about this passage?
  2. Where can we find explicit Qur’anic testimony to the (ostensible) Muslim status of Adam, Abraham, and all the other patriarchs?
(If what we have here is such a damning discrepancy in the text of a self-proclaimed God-given book, I want to be sure that it can be proven beyond all doubt.)
Click to expand...
1- the passage dosn’t mean that mohammed (pbuh) is the first muslim in the earth , the word here be understood as a verb
so when God request from muslims to pray , then mohammed (pbuh) should to be the first submitter for the command .
when God command muslims to fast , then mohammed (pbuh) should to be the first submitter ( the first muslim) . etc

2-
2:132 And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; “Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam.”

3-52 When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: “Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah.” Said the disciples: "We are Allah.s helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.

10-84 Moses said: “O my people! If ye do (really) believe in Allah, then in Him put your trust if ye muslims (submit your will to His.)”
 
elwill said:
1- the passage dosn’t mean that mohammed (pbuh) is the first muslim in the earth , the word here be understood as a verb
so when God request from muslims to pray , then mohammed (pbuh) should to be the first submitter for the command .
when God command muslims to fast , then mohammed (pbuh) should to be the first submitter ( the first muslim) . etc

2-
2:132 And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; “Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam.”

3-52 When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: “Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah.” Said the disciples: "We are Allah.s helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.

10-84 Moses said: “O my people! If ye do (really) believe in Allah, then in Him put your trust if ye muslims (submit your will to His.)”
Click to expand...
So whats happening in Egypt?? MB running the government?
 
‘Islam’ means to submit to the will of the Creator.

A follower of Islam in Arabic is mu-Islam → Muslim.

All of the Biblical Prophets like Abraham, Jesus and Moses (peace be upon them all) did indeed submit to the will of their Lord and therefore they followed Islam and were therefore Muslims.

Likewise, their followers who believed and followed their true teachings were also Muslims.

And as to the question of whether or not Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the first Muslim according to the Qur’an, the explanation is something like this:

A medical doctor who lived, say in the 19th Century, would be called a doctor then… but if that person were to reappear today, he would not be permitted to call himself a certified doctor and practice his profession unless he obtains new medical qualifications and this would involve acquiring additional knowledge and understanding than what was taught back in the 19th Century.

Another analogy would be that of someone who obtains a license to fly light airplanes, while he would be called a pilot, nevertheless he would still need to obtain additional training in order to be allowed to pilot heavier aircraft.

And so, the people who lived in the past and who faithfully followed the teachings of the earlier Prophets (pbut) were ‘Muslims’ in the eyes of their Lord then because they did indeed submit to His will… but after the arrival of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) some 1400 years ago, then everyone who lives after the teachings of Islam were brought by him to the world, needs to accept and declare their believe that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the Seal of the Prophets in order for them to be called Muslims.
 
What you say, think and can prove Historically are three seperate realities. When you can effectively connect all three we shall actually “Begin” this discussion.

Prove Christ was a muslim 🤷
 
‘Islam’ means to submit to the will of the Creator.

In Arabic, someone who submits to the will of the Creator is a mu-Islam → Muslim.

Jesus Christ (pbuh) did indeed submit to the will of his Lord… and that makes him a Muslim.

However, since the word ‘Muslim’ does actually appear in the Bible, then perhaps it is better that Jesus Christ himself explain why he is a Muslim.

Luke 6:40
The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

The perfection here means a spiritual one. What the verse is saying is that knowledge is not what matters! The teacher or master is higher in knowledge than his student. But the student can be as high as his teacher, or even higher, by being a true ‘MUSHLAM’ or Muslim, a spiritually perfect and well-disciplined person!

Let us look at what Jesus said in Luke 6:40 in the language of Aramaic translated into Hebrew as shown below:



“Ein talmeed na’leh 'al rabbo; shekken kal adam she’MUSHLAM yihyeh k’rabbo.”

Translation in English: "No student can be above his teacher, but everyone that is a MUSLIM, can be as his teacher."
*
Taken from the Aramaic bible society.*

The verse is crystal clear in Aramaic! The most accurate and honest translation for the Aramaic ‘Mushlam’ is none other than the Arabic ‘Muslim’, which means Believer!

And so then, not only does the word ‘Muslim’ appear in the Bible, it was used by Jesus (pbuh) to describe himself!
 
hamba2han said:
‘Islam’ means to submit to the will of the Creator.

In Arabic, someone who submits to the will of the Creator is a mu-Islam → Muslim.

Jesus Christ (pbuh) did indeed submit to the will of his Lord… and that makes him a Muslim.

However, since the word ‘Muslim’ does actually appear in the Bible, then perhaps it is better that Jesus Christ himself explain why he is a Muslim.

Luke 6:40
The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

The perfection here means a spiritual one. What the verse is saying is that knowledge is not what matters! The teacher or master is higher in knowledge than his student. But the student can be as high as his teacher, or even higher, by being a true ‘MUSHLAM’ or Muslim, a spiritually perfect and well-disciplined person!

Let us look at what Jesus said in Luke 6:40 in the language of Aramaic translated into Hebrew as shown below:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/hebrew_2.gif

“Ein talmeed na’leh 'al rabbo; shekken kal adam she’MUSHLAM yihyeh k’rabbo.”

Translation in English: "No student can be above his teacher, but everyone that is a MUSLIM, can be as his teacher."
*
Taken from the Aramaic bible society.*

The verse is crystal clear in Aramaic! The most accurate and honest translation for the Aramaic ‘Mushlam’ is none other than the Arabic ‘Muslim’, which means Believer!

And so then, not only does the word ‘Muslim’ appear in the Bible, it was used by Jesus (pbuh) to describe himself!
Click to expand...
Seriously Hamba - taking stuff from answering Christianity and pasting it here is a usual tactic for you and yet you don’t give the site “credit”…
 
For Hamba:

Luke 6:40 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)

οὐκ ἔστιν μαθητὴς ὑπὲρ τὸν διδάσκαλον· **κατηρτισμένος **δὲ πᾶς ἔσται ὡς ὁ διδάσκαλος αὐτοῦ.

Original Word: καταρτίζω

to complete, prepare

Part of Speech: Verb

Transliteration: katartizó

Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ar-tid’-zo)

Short Definition: I fit together, prepare

Definition: (a) I fit (join) together; met: I compact together, (b) act. and mid: I prepare, perfect, for his (its) full destination or use, bring into its proper condition (whether for the first time, or after a lapse).

Biblos.com

Also Hamba - just like (name removed by moderator) mentioned - Luke was written in Greek not Amamaic as you claim from the answering Christianity website.
 
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