Question on Islam.

[Wandile]

I put an article in my last post on the Islamic argument for the non-divinity of Christ and for the story of who the real Jesus is. .

I’m sorry but I’ve read too many of Osama Abdallah’s works and to be honest…Answering-Christianity is extremely weak source to be citing as Osama has no knowledge of biblical exegesis. His interpretations are “interesting” to say the least.

Anyway most Muslim sources (Including the ones you cited) seem to be intellectually dishonest and have a tendency to make rather rash and dishonest interpretations of the Bible.

I ask YOU to present your case on the non-divinity of Christ as allegedly taught in the New Testament.

I could make an argument purely from the Bible if I so wished.

Please do so?

 

[PumpkinSeed]

Muslims pop out babies like theres no tomorrow.

And, no, we still beat them by about 1 billion

 

[rinnie]

Actually, according to the Qur’an, he stated quite clearly that he was both merely human and that he was not the last of the prophets, but that there was one to come.v

I suggest you read this: islamreligion.com/articles/1576/

This is wrong. The Aramaic Bible actually DOES mention Muhammad’s (pbuh) coming. Similarly, the Gospel of John also predicts his coming.

Article source: answering-christianity.com/prediction.htm

Actually, I believe that only God can do anything for me. All the prophets were sent only to warn people and bring them back to the One they should fear and worship alone. In Muhammad (pbuh) there is the best example of what true worship of God is and of a true believer. But I neither worship either 'Isa nor Muhammad (peace be upon them).

If I want something, or wish to ask something, I ask God and God alone.

Please don’t tell me you are tying to say Muhammad is the Holy Spirit.

 

[rinnie]

I’m sorry but I’ve read too many of Osama Abdallah’s works and to be honest…Answering-Christianity is extremely weak source to be citing as Osama has no knowledge of biblical exegesis. His interpretations are “interesting” to say the least.

Anyway most Muslim sources (Including the ones you cited) seem to be intellectually dishonest and have a tendency to make rather rash and dishonest interpretations of the Bible.

I ask YOU to present your case on the non-divinity of Christ as allegedly taught in the New Testament.

Please do so?

Can’t wait to hear this one.

 

[Trebor135]

Sen McGlinn–thanks for your post. I wasn’t able to find the passage I remembered having read, so unless or until I’m able to unearth it, I will say that I stand corrected.

What I did find, however, was this:

Let’s look at the verse:

And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: “O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.” But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, “this is evident sorcery!” S. 61:6 Yusuf Ali

The problem with the verse is that Jesus never made this prediction. Muhammad made it up. Maybe I can help Zaatari and other Muslim readers to see that there really is a problem by illustrating it with a simple fictitious scenario. Muhammad was not the last one to start a religion claiming that he was announced beforehand by earlier prophets. For example, this is the first paragraph of the Wikipedia entry on Bahá’u’lláh, founder of the Baha’i faith:

He claimed to fulfill the Bábí prophecy of “He whom God shall make manifest”, but in a broader sense he also claimed to be the Messenger of God prophesied in all great religious traditions. He said that this day “is the king of days,” for which “the soul of every Prophet of God, of every Divine Messenger, hath thirsted,” and that “In this most mighty Revelation, all the Dispensations of the past have attained their highest, their final consummation.” (Source, accessed on 20 April 2006; bold emphasis mine)

Imagine that in one of Bahá’u’lláh’s writings we were to find the statement:

And remember, Muhammad, the son of Amina, said: “O Arabs! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Revelations (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Bahá’u’lláh.” But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, “this is evident sorcery!”

Would Muslims be impressed? Would they consider this to be evidence that Bahá’u’lláh is truly a messenger from God and thus convert and join the Baha’i faith? Hardly! Why not?

Given that such an alleged saying by Muhammad is recorded neither in the Qur’an nor in the sahih hadith, the authoritative sources of the religion of Islam, Muslims would conclude that Bahá’u’lláh invented this statement and put it into Muhammad’s mouth in order to deceive and mislead people into believing that he is a messenger from God.

Instead of being a reason for believing in Bahá’u’lláh and his message, such a false claim would be a strong reason against believing him. It would not matter at all, if that statement were to be found in the authoritative religious sources of the Baha’is. The fact that it is not recorded in the Islamic sources would be sufficient reason for Muslims (and most other people), to reject such a claim as fabricated.

Baha’i apologists (defenders of the faith) could then counter this embarrassing problem by claiming that the Muslims have corrupted their scriptures by deliberately removing any reference to Bahá’u’lláh, … but who would consider such a desperate response to be credible? Most everyone would immediately see that it was created merely for the purpose of defending a false claim by their religious founder.

Based on the authoritative Islamic sources, Muslims would easily be able to list half a dozen other reasons why this statement could not even be a lost but authentic statement of Muhammad. The fact that Muhammad explicitly taught to be the final prophet would only be one of them. There would be many others. But I think I have said enough, the reader is getting the point by now.

 

[Trebor135]

Muslims pop out babies like theres no tomorrow.

The 2012 edition of the CIA World Factbook (if this link doesn’t work, go here) provides data indicating that, of the fifty countries with the highest fertility rate in the world, only fifteen have a strong Muslim majority:

1 Niger 7.52 2012 est.
3 Mali 6.35 2012 est.
4 Somalia 6.26 2012 est.
9 Afghanistan 5.64 2012 est.
17 Guinea 5.04 2012 est.
25 Senegal 4.69 2012 est.
27 Gaza Strip 4.57 2012 est.
30 Yemen 4.45 2012 est.
33 Western Sahara 4.22 2012 est.
34 Mauritania 4.22 2012 est.
35 Sudan 4.17 2012 est.
36 Gambia, The 4.10 2012 est.
38 Comoros 4.09 2012 est.
43 Iraq 3.58 2012 est.
49 Jordan 3.36 2012 est.

The rest have a near-balance between Muslims and non-Muslims (e.g., Nigeria, Burkina Faso), a Muslim plurality (e.g., Sierra Leone, Guinea-Bissau), a notable Muslim presence (e.g., Ethiopia, Togo), a small Muslim minority (e.g., Uganda, Congo-Kinshasa), or virtually no Muslim population to speak of (e.g., Congo-Brazzaville, Angola).

And, no, we still beat them by about 1 billion

How so? Muslims are about 1.5 billion, while Catholics stand at about 1.1 billion.

 

[manualman]

I think he meant that christians overall are around 2 billion, no?

The divisions in Islam (Sunni and Shia) are at least as sharp as those beteen catholic and protestant (though that’s an awfully big tent). So that would seem to be the apples to apples basis though.

I do find it offensive to characterize those who have large families as “popping 'em out like pumpkin seeds.” On a catholic forum, its quite disappointing to hear such crude dismissal of people so receptive to children. Perhaps you might want to work on that beam in your own eye first…

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Kouyate42, I am waiting to read the passages in the Bible that prove Jesus was not divine…Not the Qur’an, but the Bible…

 

[jakasaki]

… snip

Muslims are about 1.5 billion, while Catholics stand at about 1.1 billion.

Vatican: Number of Catholics is up, still behind Muslims

Francis X. Rocca, Religion News Service

Updated 2/22/2011 5:47:26 PM

VATICAN CITY — The number of Catholics in the world edged up 1% in 2009, the Vatican says, bringing to 1.18 billion the number of adherents of the world’s largest church, about one in five of the global population.

Lots more to read in the article enclosed:

usatoday.com/news/religion/2011-02-23-catholic_vatican_22_ST_N.htm

 

[Kouyate42]

I do find it offensive to characterize those who have large families as “popping 'em out like pumpkin seeds.” On a catholic forum, its quite disappointing to hear such crude dismissal of people so receptive to children. Perhaps you might want to work on that beam in your own eye first…

Definitely. Islam has great emphasis on children and family, and sees the birth of children as a gift. This is something largely forgotten in Western culture, too many of which seem to see children as a burden.

 

[Trebor135]

I think he meant that christians overall are around 2 billion, no?

Right. But the proportion of the world identified as Muslim constitutes much more than a billion souls. Adding up the Muslim populations of Indonesia (ca. 207 million), Pakistan (ca. 181 million), India (ca. 160 million), Bangladesh (ca. 128 million), Nigeria (ca. 85 million), Turkey (ca. 79 million), Iran (ca. 77 million), and Egypt (ca. 72 million) already gives a staggering figure of ca. 989 million people, and there are a lot of other, much smaller countries with significant numbers of Islam’s adherents.

The divisions in Islam (Sunni and Shia) are at least as sharp as those beteen catholic and protestant (though that’s an awfully big tent). So that would seem to be the apples to apples basis though.

True. The Sunni-Shi’a conflict has heated up considerably in the past decade or so, though it’s been simmering for 1,300 years.

I do find it offensive to characterize those who have large families as “popping 'em out like pumpkin seeds.” On a catholic forum, its quite disappointing to hear such crude dismissal of people so receptive to children. Perhaps you might want to work on that beam in your own eye first…

Agreed.

 

[rinnie]

Definitely. Islam has great emphasis on children and family, and sees the birth of children as a gift. This is something largely forgotten in Western culture, too many of which seem to see children as a burden.

This goes to show sometimes we see how other cultures who disagree with our faith live it out better then us in certain ways.

Not that I am a fan of Islam, but I do admire them how they continue to take time out in the day to pray to our Lord. In our country its comming to the point we can’t even SPEAK of our Lord alone take time out to pray to him.

I wonder how many older people with money today would give it all up to have Children and family around them in their old and lonely age. Maybe the old way the way of God with letting God control our number of children and seeing children as a blessing not a curse or struggle was better after all.

Maybe someday we will learn. We talk about how Islam demands things that are unthinkable to us, and while I totally agree with that, and believe they are so wrong how they treat their wife etc, I wonder if people see how controlled we are by our own goverment.

Why did we let them take God out of our Schools, why can’t we talk about God. We have much fixin’ to do in our own country I believe.

 

[rinnie]

Kouyate42, I am waiting to read the passages in the Bible that prove Jesus was not divine…Not the Qur’an, but the Bible…

Exactly. If you want to try to contradict the word of God at least use the true word of do so.

Kouyated42 seems to forget while Islam sees the Qur’an sacred, we see out bible as such also.

Many of us hold true to our faith, we say our rosary, we keep holy the Lords day, we do for our Church, Many of us DO put God first.

Do not put us to the test, we will Die for our Lord also, the same way we will die for one another and our country. We do have a mess in our goverment. But we the People, when push comes to shove know where God is and Who he is. And we will honor him and his word in the Holy Bible!

Granted we all need to step up to the plate and live our faith better, but we do Love our Jesus. We do accept him as our Lord and Savior. We do have the Light, the truth and the way. And in this country we will defend him.

 

[Kouyate42]

This goes to show sometimes we see how other cultures who disagree with our faith live it out better then us in certain ways.

I used to live in a Muslim area and I was really quite moved by what I saw there with Muslim families. The parents quite openly loved to spend time with their children, to have fun with them but also to teach them and guide them in pretty much everything. The children seemed to really appreciate and benefit from the parental attention they got and they were happy, respectful of parental authority. They were certainly never dumped infront of a TV all day or treated as a burden.

Not that I am a fan of Islam, but I do admire them how they continue to take time out in the day to pray to our Lord. In our country its comming to the point we can’t even SPEAK of our Lord alone take time out to pray to him.

Indeed. Islam teaches that Allah should be the first thought at all times of the day, and that the prayers are really only a small thing to do that means a lot and brings great benefit. Fajr prayer, the first prayer of the day, gives thanks to Allah for a new day. The 'Asr (mid-afternoon) prayer is right in the middle of the day, and shows that a believer should be willing to stop what he’s doing, even in the middle of a busy working day, to thank Allah. And then there’s Ishaa which thanks Allah for the day that has just gone.

I wonder how many older people with money today would give it all up to have Children and family around them in their old and lonely age. Maybe the old way the way of God with letting God control our number of children and seeing children as a blessing not a curse or struggle was better after all.

IN the UK not so long ago, nobody batted an eyelid if you had a lot of children. Certainly parents didn’t complain or see the children as a burden but a vital part of life itself. My own grandparents have 12 brothers and sisters between them. Somehow their parents (my great-grandparents) seemed to cope just fine. Yes, they sacrificed things, and often scrimped and saved to afford things, but they coped.

Maybe someday we will learn. We talk about how Islam demands things that are unthinkable to us, and while I totally agree with that, and believe they are so wrong how they treat their wife etc, I wonder if people see how controlled we are by our own goverment.

Why did we let them take God out of our Schools, why can’t we talk about God. We have much fixin’ to do in our own country I believe.

Both being liberal and being strict can become, in their own way, forms of tyranny. I consider myself a liberal but the way I see it, the liberal view of equal rights for all has turned into a nightmare where these supposed equal rights have driven a wedge between different groups in society, and those with more traditional views are often ignored at best or actively suppressed at worst.

Similarly, a too strict system devolves into some system like that of the Taliban where punishment is severe for the slightest infraction.

 

[LovesOwn]

Please don’t tell me you are tying to say Muhammad is the Holy Spirit.

My post is meant for Kouyote42

I think that before you tell others about their religion, you should investigate your own more thoroughly. Jesus taught love, He taught caring. Each and every parable He taught, had a moral of care in it. We never say ‘peace be upon him’ after we mention his name, like you do for your prophet, as we know that Jesus is The Prince of Peace. In your Koran love is only mentioned in sentances like ‘surely allah loves the righteous’, it is not taught to you to love… Thus, it it erroneous to say that Christ would’ve predicted the coming of someone who advocated such hatred, when He endlessly preached love, and in fact said ‘a new Commandment I give unto you, that you love one another as I have loved you.’.

The Holy Spirit is God! Mohamed was mere man, actually, correction, he was misguided man. In Mecca there were 360 odd idol gods, allah was one of them, the moon-god, his symbol was a crescent moon, Mohamed smashed all the other idols and left the moon god to be worshipped. Idolising? What do you call it when everyone faces the same black stone when they pray? We have to ask questions and not simply accept what is taught, which is why I cannot be catholic, as it is deeply flawed like most religions. But, if you can prove that Jesus was once an idol, then I might turn away from Him. Go to google images and google allah moon god, wiki it, investigate before you decide the religion you were born into is right. There is no birth right of right and wrong… It’s up to you to choose, like you choose your career, your spouse, choose God, choose love. If you want to get into the Bible and pull it apart, I know a few Hadith about the spoils of war, the capturing of slaves, the marrying of a 9 year old, the beating of your wife, the eating with your right hand, actually, they are in the Koran as well. There’s much to learn! Learn enough first before you think you know everything.

 

[rinnie]

I used to live in a Muslim area and I was really quite moved by what I saw there with Muslim families. The parents quite openly loved to spend time with their children, to have fun with them but also to teach them and guide them in pretty much everything. The children seemed to really appreciate and benefit from the parental attention they got and they were happy, respectful of parental authority. They were certainly never dumped infront of a TV all day or treated as a burden.

Indeed. Islam teaches that Allah should be the first thought at all times of the day, and that the prayers are really only a small thing to do that means a lot and brings great benefit. Fajr prayer, the first prayer of the day, gives thanks to Allah for a new day. The 'Asr (mid-afternoon) prayer is right in the middle of the day, and shows that a believer should be willing to stop what he’s doing, even in the middle of a busy working day, to thank Allah. And then there’s Ishaa which thanks Allah for the day that has just gone.

IN the UK not so long ago, nobody batted an eyelid if you had a lot of children. Certainly parents didn’t complain or see the children as a burden but a vital part of life itself. My own grandparents have 12 brothers and sisters between them. Somehow their parents (my great-grandparents) seemed to cope just fine. Yes, they sacrificed things, and often scrimped and saved to afford things, but they coped.

Both being liberal and being strict can become, in their own way, forms of tyranny. I consider myself a liberal but the way I see it, the liberal view of equal rights for all has turned into a nightmare where these supposed equal rights have driven a wedge between different groups in society, and those with more traditional views are often ignored at best or actively suppressed at worst.

Similarly, a too strict system devolves into some system like that of the Taliban where punishment is severe for the slightest infraction.

I agree, we both have the good and the bad. It is a shame though they they are so degrading to women. Its sad that have no respect for women whatsoever.

That is where I believe they could learn alot from us. My Father always loved my Mother and treated her equal in all ways. And my husband is the same to me. I could not imagine being treated the way the women are treated over there. It also goes against the word of God.

 

[Kouyate42]

I agree, we both have the good and the bad. It is a shame though they they are so degrading to women. Its sad that have no respect for women whatsoever.

That is where I believe they could learn alot from us. My Father always loved my Mother and treated her equal in all ways. And my husband is the same to me. I could not imagine being treated the way the women are treated over there. It also goes against the word of God.

As a woman, I’d disagree. Different Islamic countries have differing standards of treatment of women, and much of the time it is ingrained cultural practice and nothing to do with Islam. Islam gets blamed simply because it’s often misunderstood by many and so makes an easy target.

The Qur’an itself, human actions aside, promotes the equality of man and woman before God. All people, regardless of gender, are given the same gifts, the same forgiveness, the same reward/punishment. Similarly, the Qur’an promotes education for both men and women, the value of both genders working for a living, and equal rights to inheritance, marriage and divorce, living standards and a will when they die to give their property to whomsoever they wish.

I’m a Muslim woman and as far as I can tell, my status as a woman is elevated by Islam. I wear the hijab and the outside world can no longer judge me by my body or looks alone, but my voice, my personality, my opinions. I am free to not just be some piece of eye candy on someone’s arm, but a person.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Again, you base all your assertions as to God’ nature/personality upon a flawed text. Ditto this for the Jews.
You have to understand that I do not accept the Gospel in its present form to be the original Gospel preached by any of the prophets.

** Because as I said before, the Christian Bible has been corrupted. There is evidence in the Bible that says Jesus is NOT God but a mere prophet. These passages/verses are quite clearly backed up with Qur’an verses which state the same thing.
**
Neither Judaism nor Islam accept Jesus as God. But according to Allah, both Jews and Christians have corrupted their scriptures to their own human whims and desires. In the case of Christianity, this has meant Jesus has become God himself and not just the prophet he is.

Still waiting for an answer…Where is this evidence? In the Bible, I mean.

:coffeeread:

 

[batman1973]

Still waiting for an answer…Where is this evidence? In the Bible, I mean.

:coffeeread:

I am as well.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

The 2012 edition of the CIA World Factbook (if this link doesn’t work, go here) provides data indicating that, of the fifty countries with the highest fertility rate in the world, only fifteen have a strong Muslim majority:

1 Niger 7.52 2012 est.
3 Mali 6.35 2012 est.
4 Somalia 6.26 2012 est.
9 Afghanistan 5.64 2012 est.
17 Guinea 5.04 2012 est.
25 Senegal 4.69 2012 est.
27 Gaza Strip 4.57 2012 est.
30 Yemen 4.45 2012 est.
33 Western Sahara 4.22 2012 est.
34 Mauritania 4.22 2012 est.
35 Sudan 4.17 2012 est.
36 Gambia, The 4.10 2012 est.
38 Comoros 4.09 2012 est.
43 Iraq 3.58 2012 est.
49 Jordan 3.36 2012 est.

The rest have a near-balance between Muslims and non-Muslims (e.g., Nigeria, Burkina Faso), a Muslim plurality (e.g., Sierra Leone, Guinea-Bissau), a notable Muslim presence (e.g., Ethiopia, Togo), a small Muslim minority (e.g., Uganda, Congo-Kinshasa), or virtually no Muslim population to speak of (e.g., Congo-Brazzaville, Angola).

How so? Muslims are about 1.5 billion, while Catholics stand at about 1.1 billion.

Many of those countries you listed are muslim countries. Catholics are not the only Christians. There are about 2 billion Christians world wide.

that beats Islam by about 1 billion.