Question on Islam.

[Augustine3]

Still waiting for an answer…Where is this evidence? In the Bible, I mean.

:coffeeread:

I am as well.

My friends don’t waste your time… Kouyate42 is not a lady of her word, she tends to cherry pick the posts she chooses to answer. I have raised many Muslims objections respectfully in a different thread and reminded her I was still waiting for an answer which she still hasn’t answered. She’s even showed her interest in becoming a Catholic now she considering reverting back to Islam. How can we trust her answers?

God bless,

 

[Trebor135]

Many of those countries you listed are muslim countries.

The fifteen I mentioned were indeed mostly Muslim. But in the list of fifty countries with the highest fertility rate are twenty-eight nations with small or negligible Muslim populations–twenty percent and under:

2 Uganda 6.65 2012 est.
5 Burundi 6.08 2012 est.
8 Zambia 5.90 2012 est.
10 Congo, Republic of the 5.59 2012 est.
11 Angola 5.54 2012 est.
12 Mozambique 5.40 2012 est.
14 Malawi 5.35 2012 est.
15 Benin 5.22 2012 est.
16 Congo, Democratic Republic of the 5.09 2012 est.
18 Liberia 5.02 2012 est.
19 Madagascar 4.96 2012 est.
20 Sao Tome and Principe 4.94 2012 est.
23 Equatorial Guinea 4.83 2012 est.
24 Rwanda 4.81 2012 est.
26 Togo 4.64 2012 est.
28 Central African Republic 4.57 2012 est.
29 Gabon 4.56 2012 est.
37 Cameroon 4.09 2012 est.
39 Tanzania 4.02 2012 est.
40 Kenya 3.98 2012 est.
41 Cote d’Ivoire 3.82 2012 est.
42 Zimbabwe 3.61 2012 est.
44 Tonga 3.55 2012 est.
45 Solomon Islands 3.51 2012 est.
46 Ghana 3.39
47 Papua New Guinea 3.39 2012 est.
48 Marshall Islands 3.37 2012 est.
50 Guatemala 3.18 2012 est.

(I just checked the CIA World Factbook statistics to make sure, and rather than being half Muslim and half Christian, it turns out that Burkina Faso is about sixty percent Muslim with the remaining forty percent divided among Catholics and others.)

Having large families seems to have more to do with economic underdevelopment than adherence to Islam. You would be right to point out, though, that the list of twenty-eight countries above contains a noticeable number of nations in the last one-fifth, so my statistically-based argument isn’t as strong as I might have liked. In either case, Christians really should get cracking (again) in this area.

Catholics are not the only Christians. There are about 2 billion Christians world wide.

True.

that beats Islam by about 1 billion.

But Muslims are definitely over a billion. I gave figures earlier in the thread showing that there are around 989 million(!) Muslims in just eight countries: Indonesia, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Nigeria, Iran, Egypt, and Turkey. A lot of other countries have numerically significant Muslim populations–e.g., Morocco, Algeria, Sudan, Iraq–and these millions of people have to be taken into account when determining the number of Muslims worldwide.

 

[Armyvet007]

My friends don’t waste your time… Kouyate42 is not a lady of her word, she tends to cherry pick the posts she chooses to answer. I have raised many Muslims objections respectfully in a different thread and reminded her I was still waiting for an answer which she still hasn’t answered. She’s even showed her interest in becoming a Catholic now she considering reverting back to Islam. How can we trust her answers?

God bless,

I believe Kou is in a confused state in regards to faith so we must have patience. In addition to praying for Kou, we need to continue to politely point out these points and questions that have yet to be answered. Not for the answers themselves, but for the fact that these reminders will force Kou to answer these points and questions for herself and she will see the failures and errors within the Islamic faith.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

I don’t care how many Muslims there are now or ever will be. All I know is the truth, and Islam is not.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I believe Kou is in a confused state in regards to faith so we must have patience. In addition to praying for Kou, we need to continue to politely point out these points and questions that have yet to be answered. Not for the answers themselves, but for the fact that these reminders will force Kou to answer these points and questions for herself and she will see the failures and errors within the Islamic faith.

Statements such as were made need to be immediately backed up. That was a ridiculous statement, that there are Bible passages that prove that Jesus was not divine! Confused is one thing - writing pure fiction is another!

 

[rinnie]

Statements such as were made need to be immediately backed up. That was a ridiculous statement, that there are Bible passages that prove that Jesus was not divine! Confused is one thing - writing pure fiction is another!

Excuse me. Jesus was NOT DIVINE

You say there are bible passages to prove this! By all means show us.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Excuse me. Jesus was NOT DIVINE

You say there are bible passages to prove this! By all means show us.

No, I didn’t say this. Kouyate42 did. Scroll up and find her message.

 

[Armyvet007]

Statements such as were made need to be immediately backed up. That was a ridiculous statement, that there are Bible passages that prove that Jesus was not divine! Confused is one thing - writing pure fiction is another!

Pray tell how this- “She’s even showed her interest in becoming a Catholic now she considering reverting back to Islam. How can we trust her answers?” is an attempt to refute her false claims. It is an uncharitable statement made out of frustration [which is understandable, I’ve unfortunately made some myself in other threads] and an attack on her character [which is neither something we should be doing as Catholics or as guests on the CA forums].

 

[rinnie]

No, I didn’t say this. Kouyate42 did. Scroll up and find her message.

My Bad. you are right I read it so fast I saw stars!!

Lets give Kouyate42 the proof so she can see it for her own eyes. Thats the best thing to do.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with GOD and the WORD WAS GOD!!

Then in John 1:14 And the WORD BECAME FLESH and dwelt among us.

Kouyate42 this is the true word of God. This proves to us that Christ is both human and divine.

Another scripual proof is when Christ said before Abraham I Am. As you know in the O.T. God was called I AM.

If you remember when Jesus was asked are you the Son Of God, Jesus said I Am.

Jesus said the Father and I are One.

There is one mediator between Men and God, that is Christ. He is the only human mediator we have.

I could go on and on, I am not here to hurt you, or degrade you. I only want to show you the truth.

In Islam Mohammad never claimed to be the Light of the World. Jesus did, He said I AM the way the truth and the light. Get it I AM.

Jesus said I FORGIVE your sins, Jesus gave the Apostles the power to cure and forgive sins in HIS name.

When the Jews asked Jesus WHO are You? Jesus says I Am. He repeats this again when he says I am He, when you have lifted up the Son of Man then uou will know I AM HE!!

Never did any other person in this world say that they are the truth. Never did Mohammad ever claim to be God.

Islams claims to Jerusalem depend on the Temple Mount being the site which Muhammad accenede to heaven in a dream making Jerusalem the third holiest site of Islam.

In the Koran it is a passage entitle the Night Journey. Which Muhammad was taken by night form the sacred mosque to the farthest mosque whose precinct we have blessed that we might show him our signs. Check this out it is true.

But the truth is the farthest mosque is now considered by the Arab world to be the Mosque of Omar on the Temple Mound. Yet when Muhammad dies in A.D.632 Jersualem was still a Christian city and had no mosques. Not until 638 when Jerusalem was captured by Khalif Omar a Christian Church know as Saint Mary of Justinian stood on the site.

It was converted to a mosque around A.D. 711 by Abd El-Wahd. who ruled Jerusalem for 705-715.

Thus not only it is certain that Muhammad was never physically present but the mosque on the Temple Mount to which he supposedlu went during the Night Journey was not BUILT until 3 years AFTER his death.

You need to check out the truth. I admire you for your search, and pray for you in your search. But I also know that if you dig deep you will find truth. And that is only in Christ.

Muhammed is not truth.

Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay surrender and pay tribute (KORAN 9:29) this is heartbreaking and sad, and not the way of the Lord.

Is this truly what you want to be a part of.

To humilate others?

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Pray tell how this- “She’s even showed her interest in becoming a Catholic now she considering reverting back to Islam. How can we trust her answers?” is an attempt to refute her false claims. It is an uncharitable statement made out of frustration [which is understandable, I’ve unfortunately made some myself in other threads] and an attack on her character [which is neither something we should be doing as Catholics or as guests on the CA forums].

I did not write that message! That’s 2 responses in a row that have been addressed to me when I was not the author! Get it right folks!

 

[Armyvet007]

I did not write that message! That’s 2 responses in a row that have been addressed to me when I was not the author! Get it right folks!

I know you didn’t write it. However, the person I was responding to did. In fact, my post [the one you first responded to] wasn’t even addressed/aimed at you. It was aimed at the person I quoted [hence the reason I quoted them]. So, either-

a) your response to me was a defense of their comment and “I did not write that message!” doesn’t matter

or

b) you jumped into the middle of a conversation without fully knowing what it was about [which, from my own past experience, is easy to do]

No need for the rolleyes.

 

[rinnie]

As a woman, I’d disagree. Different Islamic countries have differing standards of treatment of women, and much of the time it is ingrained cultural practice and nothing to do with Islam. Islam gets blamed simply because it’s often misunderstood by many and so makes an easy target.

The Qur’an itself, human actions aside, promotes the equality of man and woman before God. All people, regardless of gender, are given the same gifts, the same forgiveness, the same reward/punishment. Similarly, the Qur’an promotes education for both men and women, the value of both genders working for a living, and equal rights to inheritance, marriage and divorce, living standards and a will when they die to give their property to whomsoever they wish.

I’m a Muslim woman and as far as I can tell, my status as a woman is elevated by Islam. I wear the hijab and the outside world can no longer judge me by my body or looks alone, but my voice, my personality, my opinions. I am free to not just be some piece of eye candy on someone’s arm, but a person.

Boy you sure got that right. Here is how Islam is taught to treat women.

Righteous women are therefore obedient…And those you fear may be rebellious admonish, banish them to their couches and beat them! Koran 4:34

The word of God.
Eph, 5:25 Husbands love your wives just as Christ loved the Church and gave up his life.

Big difference would you not agree?

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I know you didn’t write it. However, the person I was responding to did. In fact, my post [the one you first responded to] wasn’t even addressed/aimed at you. It was aimed at the person I quoted [hence the reason I quoted them]. So, either-

a) your response to me was a defense of their comment and “I did not write that message!” doesn’t matter

or

b) you jumped into the middle of a conversation without fully knowing what it was about [which, from my own past experience, is easy to do]

No need for the rolleyes.

You quoted my message in your message. That usually means you are responding to the person in the quote (me, in this case). Go back and look.

 

[Kouyate42]

Boy you sure got that right. Here is how Islam is taught to treat women.

Righteous women are therefore obedient…And those you fear may be rebellious admonish, banish them to their couches and beat them! Koran 4:34

The word of God.
Eph, 5:25 Husbands love your wives just as Christ loved the Church and gave up his life.

Big difference would you not agree?

There is a major disagreement as to whether the word used for ‘beat’ in that Qur’an verse actually means ‘beat’ or whether it uses the alternate meaning of the word, which is ‘leave’. An increasing amount of scholars of Islam are favouring this interpretation.

Islam teaches above all that a husband should be kind and considerate to his wife, provide for her and repect her wishes, requests and opinions. The only time that a man is allowed to do anything to his wife (and I favour the ‘leave’ interpretation here) is where she is selfish, refuses to heed to reasonable requests to do something and generally rebels against her husband.

 

[Trebor135]

Kouyate42–thanks for your post. But the Qur’an–as the book itself states–is “clear”: easy to understand. Shouldn’t a verb such as ترك (taraka) have been used instead, to avoid implying–by the use of the verb ضرب (Daraba)–that physical force can be deployed?

How many of the early commentators on the Qur’an interpreted s. 4:34 to be encouraging men to depart from their wife for a time? Wouldn’t this interpretation, if barely or never proposed during and since the first few centuries of Islam, actually constitute the sin of bid`ah (innovation)?

 

[Armyvet007]

You quoted my message in your message. That usually means you are responding to the person in the quote (me, in this case). Go back and look.

Let’s work backwards-

-Me quoting you [post 69] in response to
-you quoting me [post 68] in respone to
-me quoting you [post 66] in response to
-you quoting me [post 63] in response to
-me quoting **someone not you **[post 61] in response to
-**someone not you’s **post [post 59]

And if you reread my comment in post 61 you’ll see I’m not calling for us not to continue to question her false claims or even arguing against your point quoted in someone not you’s post [post 59]; I’m calling on us to do so in a polite manner. A manner which is completely missing in someone not you’s comment in post 59. And all of this is how I came to the “a” or “b” conclusions in post 69.

 

[Armyvet007]

Kouyate42–thanks for your post. But the Qur’an–as the book itself states–is “clear”: easy to understand. Shouldn’t a verb such as ترك (taraka) have been used instead, to avoid implying–by the use of the verb ضرب (Daraba)–that physical force can be deployed?

How many of the early commentators on the Qur’an interpreted s. 4:34 to be encouraging men to depart from their wife for a time? Wouldn’t this interpretation, if barely or never proposed during and since the first few centuries of Islam, actually constitute the sin of bid`ah (innovation)?

Does the idea of a “mutual cooling off period” [this from the “banish” of the wife and (as argued by Kou) the “leaving” of the husband] fit within the context of that part of the Quran or of Arabic society/culture for that time period?

 

[rinnie]

There is a major disagreement as to whether the word used for ‘beat’ in that Qur’an verse actually means ‘beat’ or whether it uses the alternate meaning of the word, which is ‘leave’. An increasing amount of scholars of Islam are favouring this interpretation.

Islam teaches above all that a husband should be kind and considerate to his wife, provide for her and repect her wishes, requests and opinions. The only time that a man is allowed to do anything to his wife (and I favour the ‘leave’ interpretation here) is where she is selfish, refuses to heed to reasonable requests to do something and generally rebels against her husband.

Another problem, who can say what the truth is, Who has authority? Which scholar do you pick?

Here is another disturbing thing. How does the scholars explain this one.

In both Judaism and Christianity heaven is the pure joy of being in God’s presence.

In Islam it comes from sensual pleasures, food, drink. sex. Men in heaven are awarded with 72 ever young virgin wives.

The also receive 28 beardless young boys. Now that is messed up!!

Is it not the adversary who has always used the lures of the flesh to seduce men away from God into sin?:yup:

 

[hamba2han]

Think of the Qur’an as the map to guide us through the journey of life and think of the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as the legend by which to correctly read this map.

Just as we should not be foolish enough to want to read a map without referring to it’s accompanying legend, then only a fool will attempt to interpret the Qur’an in a way which is different than how the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself understood the Qur’an… and therefore, we need to refer to the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in order to obtain the most accurate interpretation possible of the Qur’an.

And so, with regard to the question of how Muslim men should treat their wives (pay particular attention to the highlighted part), here is the Final Sermon of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh);

**After praising, and thanking God, the Prophet, may God send His praises upon him said:

“O People, lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore, listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and take these words to those who could not be present here today.

O People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your Lord, and that He will indeed reckon your deeds. God has forbidden you to take usury (interest), therefore all interest obligation shall henceforth be waived. Your capital, however, is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer any inequity. God has Judged that there shall be no interest, and that all the interest due to Abbas ibn Abd’al Muttalib shall henceforth be waived…

Beware of Satan, for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope that he will ever be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.

O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under a trust from God and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with any one of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste.**

O People, listen to me in earnest, worship God, perform your five daily prayers, fast during the month of Ramadan, and offer Zakat. Perform Hajj if you have the means.

All mankind is from Adam and Eve. An Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab, nor does a non-Arab have any superiority over an Arab; white has no superiority over black, nor does a black have any superiority over white; [none have superiority over another] except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.

Remember, one day you will appear before God and answer for your deeds. So beware, do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone.

O People, no prophet or apostle will come after me, and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O people, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Quran and my example, the Sunnah, and if you follow these you will never go astray.

All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and it may be that the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness, O God, that I have conveyed your message to your people.”

Thus the beloved Prophet completed his Final Sermon, and upon it, near the summit of Arafat, the revelation came down:

“…This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My Grace upon you, and have chosen Islam for you as your religion…” (Qur’an 5:3)

 

[rinnie]

Yes, the prophet Muhammad who when he was about 60 married a 6 year old girl and consummating his marriage with her when she was 9.

Don’t tell me thats respecting women and CHILDREN!!

How about when he said when a man calls on his wife to satisfy his desire let her come to him though she is occupied at the oven.

Yeah Right!!

For a 60 year old man to have sex with a nine year old baby will get your jail time.

How are you going to feel when your six year old daughter is given to a 60 year old man and he has sex with her at 9. Please don’t tell me you are okay with this.

And please don’t tell me you believe this was something a true Prophet of God would teach.