Question on Islam.

[rinnie]

I struggle to understand how Muslims are able to consider activities gravely sinful on earth–promiscuity, extramarital sex, homosexuality, and perhaps gluttony–but completely holy in paradise. Truly baffling.

Kouyate42 was saying that Christians differ on their theology, not their Scripture.

What do you mean? Kouyate42 would say that the Bible was thoroughly corrupted–without evidence–and any religion based on such a text would teach many errors.

There you go no evidence. Got to produce the evidence.

Granted Christian differ in their theology, BUT, and this is a big BUT. Not one person has been ever able to show where one teaching in the CC was ever wrong. That says alot. Don’t you agree.

Not one person has ever been able to prove the Church wrong. Do you ever wonder why?

Simple the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit cannot lead us into different truths.

Many people Claim to have the power of the Holy Spirit. But how the Church can prove THEN wrong is the HolySpirit only teaches one truth.

The Catholic Church has only ONE truth and has never changed from the beginning of time. How many People who claim the same can say the same. Not one I know

The Catholic Church has 2 things Reason and History.

And the funniest thing is the People who try to the prove the Church wrong the hardest usually become part of the CC.

Show me one truth that the CC has ever taught that can be proven wrong? Its never happened. Simply because the Church is indeed the Pilar of all truth.

People have tried from the beginning of time to prove the teachings of the RCC wrong. And have failed time after time.

 

[spiral]

The point here is that for those who are continually harping on the age of A’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) when she married the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), remember that what you are proclaiming as an undeniable fact is actually a hadith which has been recorded based on her recollection alone.

The claim that Aisha was 9 at the time when Muhammad consummated his marriage with her is based on Aisha’s actual word? That makes it a powerful claim indeed, then, and almost certainly true if the information came from the one who experienced it. How can you dismiss her recollection as unimportant and imply that her own memory must have been mistaken?

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

I can’t get past him having sex with a nine year old. …

You are supposing this to be a fact. But it’s an allegation, until the evidence has been weighed. Since consummation does not leave any historical trace, and Aisha had no children, there’s not much chance that the charge will ever be proved.

There is another hadith that shows Aisha remained with her parents until after puberty, and in fact that she was already past puberty when they left Mecca for Medina. This
hadith is also in the collection known as Sahih Bukhari:

Narrated ‘Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) I had seen my parents following Islam since I attained the age of puberty. Not a day passed but the Prophet visited us, both in the mornings and evenings. My father Abu Bakr thought of building a mosque in the courtyard of his house and he did so. ... Abu Bakr was a softhearted person and could not help weeping while reciting the Quran. The chiefs of the Quraish pagans [that is, the rulers of Mecca] became afraid of that (i.e. that their children and women might be affected by the recitation of Quran).

Abu Bakr was the first outside the family of Muhammad to believe. That would be about 613 AD, and if Aisha was at puberty then, she must have been born about 602 AD, making her 20 years old at the Hijra, in 622, and she is supposed to have married Muhammad in the same year, or two years later.

However another Hadith says

Narrated Hisham’s father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married ‘Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

That would make her just 4 at the time of the hijra. So we have a roughly 16-year range: either she was at puberty before the Hijra and able to recount what her father and Muhammad did in Mecca, or she was only a baby then, and her memories would have no weight.

Having said that, there is nothing inherently unlikely about an arranged marriage between a girl or even a baby of one family, and an important (and therefore old) man of another family or tribe. That is how alliances were made or cemented.

We should ask what it was that happened at nine years old, supposing we prefer that account to the post-puberty marriage account. The translator of Sahih Muslim tells it this way: (008: 3309:

” ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina .... Umm Ruman (my mother)  ... took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him.”

No mention of consummation there, but there is in other accounts. The word “enter” in Arabic is used both for going to live with, and for sexual penetration — so if we are using these early-marriage version, what happened at 9 years old. Was it cohabitation or consummation, in western terms? In Muslim terms it doesn’t matter, because the principle in Islamic law is that a man and woman who are alone in circumstances where they would not expect to be disturbed are considered to have had sexual intercourse, with all the legal consequences. In the case of a couple with a marriage contract, the legal consequence is that the marriage is valid, it has been ‘consummated’, whether or not they were actually intimate. This is not a presumption that all men and women are constantly wanting to jump into bed together, rather it is a legal practicality and also a matter of politeness. The alternative to making “being alone together” legally equivalent to physical consummation, is to try to ascertain the actual
facts, as in Western law.

However today we do wonder whether the marriage with ‘A’isha was consummated in the literal physical sense. All I can say is that Muhammad was capable of having children, but only actually had children by his first wife, Khadija, and again towards the end of his life, with Miriam, the Egyptian Christian. Several of his wives had young children by previous marriages, so if none of them had children after marrying Muhammad, perhaps these marriages were - in western terms - cohabitations not consummated marriages. I suspect that Muhammad’s reputed love of women was like his love for the poor and oppressed: he loved them enough to take them seriously as people, to accord them rights and importance that they did not have in the eyes of the tribal leaders.

There are two traditions in the same source (Sahih Muslim), giving different answers as to Aisha’s age. It just so happens (?) that in western media one is very prominent, and the other somehow overlooked. These discussions are not in fact about Muhammad — they are about finding excuses for the hatred of a people and a religion.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

The claim that Aisha was 9 at the time when Muhammad consummated his marriage with her is based on Aisha’s actual word? That makes it a powerful claim indeed, then, and almost certainly true if the information came from the one who experienced it. How can you dismiss her recollection as unimportant and imply that her own memory must have been mistaken?

Not on her actual words, but on what people later claimed she had said. And different people at the time would have various motives for slanting the story one way or the other.

A person generations later who had memorised a lot of Aisha traditions, might fabricate a story saying she was at puberty when Abu Bakr converted, because that would mean that, having reached the age of reason, her narratives are reliable.

Another person generations later might be looking for a legal precedent allowing him to marry his young daughter off (islamic law requires consent, and consent requires reaching the age of reason), and then fabricate a tradition that Aisha was only six when she married the prophet. That would (did) create two contradictory principles, a problem which a later generation of Islamic scholars solved by allowing the marriage of a child, subject to confirmation by consent when the child reaches the age of reason.

One thing is clear: Muhammad’s wives all stayed with him. I don’t know of any tradition that says one of them too umbrage at the behaviour of Muhammad or the other wives, and went back to her family. It must have been a remarkably happy household. With modern western rates of divorce, about 5 or 6 of those marriages would have ended in a divorce.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

Does the idea of a “mutual cooling off period” [this from the “banish” of the wife and (as argued by Kou) the “leaving” of the husband] fit within the context of that part of the Quran or of Arabic society/culture for that time period?

Muhammad tells them first to admonish their wives, then refuse to share their beds, then withdraw from them, then (next verse) appoint arbiters from the families (to resolve the problem if possible). That is a logical progression.

I think that Muhammad put more emphasis on the stability of marriage than the culture of his time. The procedure of appointing arbiters might well be tribal, but by putting it in the Quran Muhammad makes it normative.

The time of “refuse to share their beds” is also important, with regard to the paternity of any later child. If this wasn’t included (and in practice, it is often skipped), the only way to have certainty about the paternity of a later child is to require the woman not to remarry for several months. The man however can remarry immediately, which is unfair. In other words, Muhammad puts the “waiting period” on both husband and wife, before the divorce. Muslim practice has tended to impose the “waiting period” only on the wife, following the divorce.

 

[hamba2han]

Actually, the question concerning the age of ‘Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) when she married the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), does indeed have a strong relationship with another and even greater miracle of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) i.e. the splitting of the Moon.

One of the arguments put forward which does indeed seem to contradict the account of her being only 6 or even 9 years old at the time of her marriage, is the issue of the time when Surah Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur’an was revealed.

Revealed as a whole, this surah came while the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was in Ibn Arqam’s home in the fourth (614) or eighth (618) or ninth (619) year of his mission, according to differing reports. Looking especially at necessity, some scholars focused on the date being 614; when this date is taken, Aisha either had not been born or had just been born. While when this date is taken it appears that she must have been born at least eight or nine years earlier, the situation does not change much when 618 or 619 are taken. In that situation she would have only been 4 or 5 years old, neither an age at which she would be in a position to understand this event and relate it years later. According to the second possibility, she was probably born when Muhammad’s prophet-hood had just begun.

Another matter worth mentioning here is that while describing that day, Aisha stated, “I was a girl playing games.” The word she used to describe herself, jariya, is used to describe the passage into puberty. Ibn Yara, an Arab poet, describes this passage as follows: “When a girl becomes 8 years old, she is not a ‘jariya’. She is a bridal candidate that I can marry to Utba or Muawiya.Ó” Some scholars say that it is used for girls who are older than 11.

If we look at the issue taking 614 as the year that Surah Qamar was revealed, Aisha would have been born at least eight years before the prophetic mission, or in 606. If we accept 618, then the year of birth would have been 610; this event alone makes it impossible for her to have been 9 when she married.

And what exactly is the significance of Surah Qamar?

Well, it explains the miracle of the split Moon… and this means that if she were a young girl at the time, it is entirely possible that Aisha herself would have seen the miracle of the splitting of the Moon.

The event of the split Moon is recorded as a mutawatir hadith i.e. many people in Makkah witnessed the miracle and going by this account, possibly including Aisha herself.

 

[rinnie]

You seem to be in argument with yourself really. Why is that? Could it be you also have a problem with Islam’s Moral teaching.

It is a Islam Moral teaching do you not agree, that a Man can marry a girl as young as six, but must wait until 9 for consummating the marriage. Or are you going to try to make that go away also.

This is not something I made up. This is what your prophet wrote for goodenss sakes. The prophet wrote that marriage contract with Aisha while she was 6 years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old. He also taught that women must alwys be ready to instantly service their husbands lust.

Now what, Muhammad and Aisha are liars??

The prophets own sexual proclivities are also made explicit in the sacred writings.

Are YOU trying to say your prophet and Aisha are not telling the truth. And if you are so connected with the teachings of your prophet why are you having such a hard time accepting them.

 

[hamba2han]

You seem to be in argument with yourself really. Why is that? Could it be you also have a problem with Islam’s Moral teaching.

It is a Islam Moral teaching do you not agree, that a Man can marry a girl as young as six, but must wait until 9 for consummating the marriage. Or are you going to try to make that go away also.

This is not something I made up. This is what your prophet wrote for goodenss sakes. The prophet wrote that marriage contract with Aisha while she was 6 years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old. He also taught that women must alwys be ready to instantly service their husbands lust.

Now what, Muhammad and Aisha are liars??

The prophets own sexual proclivities are also made explicit in the sacred writings.

Are YOU trying to say your prophet and Aisha are not telling the truth. And if you are so connected with the teachings of your prophet why are you having such a hard time accepting them.

I was merely making the point that, as you can see for yourself, there are indeed conflicting ahadith regarding the age of A’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) when she married the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)… but there are absolutely NO conflicting ahadith, either mutawatir or otherwise, regarding the miracles of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) sprouting water from his fingers and of the splitting of the Moon, none whatsoever.

And so, again I wish to point out that people who readily believe the hadith which reports A’ishah being six at the time of her marriage, would really have no reason at all to doubt the veracity of the ahadith regarding these two miracles of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), both of which have been recorded as mutawatir hadith.

It seems to me that it is the detractors of Islam who are having a real hard time accepting the fact that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did indeed perform awesome miracles which were witnessed by hundreds if not thousands of people… and this is not even counting yet his greatest miracle of all i.e. the Noble Qur’an.

 

[jakasaki]

I was merely making the point that, as you can see for yourself, there are indeed conflicting ahadith regarding the age of A’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) when she married the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)… but there are absolutely NO conflicting ahadith, either mutawatir or otherwise, regarding the miracles of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) sprouting water from his fingers and of the splitting of the Moon, none whatsoever.

And so, again I wish to point out that people who readily believe the hadith which reports A’ishah being six at the time of her marriage, would really have no reason at all to doubt the veracity of the ahadith regarding these two miracles of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), both of which have been recorded as mutawatir hadith.

It seems to me that it is the detractors of Islam who are having a real hard time accepting the fact that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did indeed perform awesome miracles which were witnessed by hundreds if not thousands of people… and this is not even counting yet his greatest miracle of all i.e. the Noble Qur’an.

Your koran states that Mohamad is only a warner / messenger & he cannot do any miracles.

 

[rinnie]

I was merely making the point that, as you can see for yourself, there are indeed conflicting ahadith regarding the age of A’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) when she married the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)… but there are absolutely NO conflicting ahadith, either mutawatir or otherwise, regarding the miracles of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) sprouting water from his fingers and of the splitting of the Moon, none whatsoever.

And so, again I wish to point out that people who readily believe the hadith which reports A’ishah being six at the time of her marriage, would really have no reason at all to doubt the veracity of the ahadith regarding these two miracles of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), both of which have been recorded as mutawatir hadith.

It seems to me that it is the detractors of Islam who are having a real hard time accepting the fact that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did indeed perform awesome miracles which were witnessed by hundreds if not thousands of people… and this is not even counting yet his greatest miracle of all i.e. the Noble Qur’an.

Its funny how you are defending the so called miracle, but seem to ignore him having sex with a 9 year old girl.

Do you believe in your heart that God would send a prophet in his name and teach that this is okay?

Forget about the miracle, can people do miracles in the name of God. Yes. Scripture states it. I showed you the scripture. But I also showed you where false prophets said to God did I not do great miracles in your name. and Christ states away from me I do not know you!!

All good can be done in the name of God. But where does scripture state that all People who do miracles in his name are from God? It says the opposite.

Muhammad comes long after Christ. He knew the truth about Christ. It was revealed to him the same as us. He rejected Christ. He did not accept Christ as the Son of God.

He puts himself with Christ. He says Christ was a prophet like himself. Christ was the word that became flesh. Can you not see this.

 

[rinnie]

Your koran states that Mohamad is only a warner / messenger & he cannot do any miracles.

Exactly different teachings. I cannot figure out for the life of me, how a follower of the Muhammad is sitting here and contradicting his own Koran.

First the Koran states Muhammad did no miracles. Then he continues to tell me Yes he did?

So whats it gonna be?

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

I was merely making the point that, as you can see for yourself, there are indeed conflicting ahadith regarding the age of A’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) when she married the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)… but there are absolutely NO conflicting ahadith, either mutawatir or otherwise, regarding the miracles of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) sprouting water from his fingers and of the splitting of the Moon, none whatsoever.

And so, again I wish to point out that people who readily believe the hadith which reports A’ishah being six at the time of her marriage, would really have no reason at all to doubt the veracity of the ahadith regarding these two miracles of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), both of which have been recorded as mutawatir hadith.

It seems to me that it is the detractors of Islam who are having a real hard time [SIGN]accepting the fact that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did indeed perform awesome miracles [/SIGN]which were witnessed by hundreds if not thousands of people… and this is not even counting yet his greatest miracle of all i.e. the Noble Qur’an.

See here we go, But the Koran states No,

 

[hamba2han]

I have asked this question before, numerous times in fact, in the past but so far, no one has responded with an answer:

Can anyone point out the verse or passage in the Qur’an which says that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) does not perform miracles?

 

[rinnie]

I have asked this question before, numerous times in fact, in the past but so far, no one has responded with an answer:

Can anyone point out the verse or passage in the Qur’an which says that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) does not perform miracles?

Sura 13:7

 

[jakasaki]

I have asked this question before, numerous times in fact, in the past but so far, no one has responded with an answer:

Can anyone point out the verse or passage in the Qur’an which says that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) does not perform miracles?

Sura 13:7 states that he is only a warner.

And the Unbelievers say: “Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?” But thou art truly a warner, and to every people a guide.

Tafsir on 13:7

This is the concise answer to their demand, though it has not been directly addressed to the disbelievers but to the Messenger. It is this:** “O Prophet, you should not worry at all about some miracle which you might show to these people in order to convince them, for it is not a part of your Mission. Your duty is only to warn the people of their negligence and of the evil consequences of their wrong ways. **And for this purpose, We have always sent a guide to every people. Now you, too, are performing this duty, and it is for them to open their eyes and judge the truth of your Message.” After giving this concise answer, Allah overlooks their demand but warns them, in the succeeding verses, that they have to deal with the All-Knowing Allah Who has full knowledge about everyone of them from the time they were in the wombs of their mothers, and Who keeps a keen watch over everything they do. Therefore their fates shall be decided strictly with justice in accordance with their merits and that there is no power on the earth and in the heavens that can influence in the least His decisions and judgments.

 

[Bezant]

Excuse me since you’re so upright, did you even bother to ask me why I even stated my reasons in the first place or do you presume to judge at face value?

I am Lebanese, I have conversed extensively with Muslims for years in fact I have many Muslim friends so I advise you not to make rash judgements like that.

God bless,

First of all, I do apologise if I’ve mischaracterised your intentions and your responses in my last post.

However, you also have to be aware that anti-Muslim sentiment and misinformation is strong on these boards. That’s why I’m ‘uptight’ about misleading, even if innocuous, responses.

God bless you as well.

 

[hamba2han]

I am looking at the Tafsir of verse 13:7

This is the concise answer to their demand, though it has not been directly addressed to the disbelievers but to the Messenger. It is this: "O Prophet, you should not worry at all about some miracle which you might show to these people in order to convince them, for it is not a part of your Mission. Your duty is only to warn the people of their negligence and of the evil consequences of their wrong ways. …

It seems pretty obvious to me is that what this tafsir is explaining is that while it is not part of the Mission of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to perform miracles, nevertheless of those miracles which he “might show to these people in order to convince them”, then he should not be overly concerned whether or not they would accept the Message that he is bringing them.

IOW, the tafsir of verse 13:7 of the Qur’an is actually alluding to the fact that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) does indeed on occasion perform miracles although it is not part of his Mission.

Try to look at it this way → A fireman’s mission is to put out fires and save human lives… but that does not mean that he cannot on occasion do other things like rescue cats which get stranded on trees.

 

[jakasaki]

I am looking at the Tafsir of verse 13:7

This is the concise answer to their demand, though it has not been directly addressed to the disbelievers but to the Messenger. It is this: "O Prophet, you should not worry at all about some miracle which you might show to these people in order to convince them, for it is not a part of your Mission. Your duty is only to warn the people of their negligence and of the evil consequences of their wrong ways. …

It seems pretty obvious to me is that what this tafsir is explaining is that while it is not part of the Mission of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to perform miracles, nevertheless of those miracles which he “might show to these people in order to convince them”, then he should not be overly concerned whether or not they would accept the Message that he is bringing them.

IOW, the tafsir of verse 13:7 of the Qur’an is actually alluding to the fact that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) does indeed on occasion perform miracles although it is not part of his Mission.

Try to look at it this way → A fireman’s mission is to put out fires and save human lives… but that does not mean that he cannot on occasion do other things like rescue cats which get stranded on trees.

It’s pretty clear…

**for it is not a part of your Mission. Your duty is only to warn the people **

 

[rinnie]

13:7, 27

The rest of the Sura encourages Muhammad and the Muslims to perservere in the face of still has NOT Given NO SIGN!

That pretty much sums it up.

 

[rinnie]

I am looking at the Tafsir of verse 13:7

This is the concise answer to their demand, though it has not been directly addressed to the disbelievers but to the Messenger. It is this: "O Prophet, you should not worry at all about some miracle which you might show to these people in order to convince them, for it is not a part of your Mission. Your duty is only to warn the people of their negligence and of the evil consequences of their wrong ways. …

It seems pretty obvious to me is that what this tafsir is explaining is that while it is not part of the Mission of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to perform miracles, nevertheless of those miracles which he “might show to these people in order to convince them”, then he should not be overly concerned whether or not they would accept the Message that he is bringing them.

IOW, the tafsir of verse 13:7 of the Qur’an is actually alluding to the fact that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) does indeed on occasion perform miracles although it is not part of his Mission.

Try to look at it this way → A fireman’s mission is to put out fires and save human lives… but that does not mean that he cannot on occasion do other things like rescue cats which get stranded on trees.

Yes I know thats what you are trying to make it say, but if you read on its quite clear. No Sign was Given.

The fact remains the Koran states has given no sign.

Now is that not a true quote from the book?