Question on IVF not answered

[ccpoisonivy]

Hi all! I have looked through this forum, searching with the search box and just combing through the pages and I have not found the answers I am looking for.

I am in a situation where the man I’m going to marry is losing his fertility due to testicular cancer. We want children once it is time and it has become increasingly difficult to adopt - we know people who are waiting without luck and 5 figures in debt! The Catholic hospital where he is being treated is able to offer IVF. They do take sperm samples, they can actually take the sample when he has his surgery without any sexual act. Then they will only create the number of embryos that are going to be used at that time for the single IVF so none are frozen and possibly “discarded”. The success rate is much better than the rate for having intercourse and trying to concieve (IVF = appx 40% success).

Also, taking into mind that there are fertilized eggs that never attach to the uterine wall and are expelled while trying to concieve having intercourse, how can you say that the embryos that do not attach during IVF are murdered. It is something that happens often - it can be a chemical miscarrage within the first trimester or just a week old human embryo that does not attach and is expelled with your normal cycle.

I understand that there are many issues and discussions about this. The ones I have found have not really involved one partner being completely infertile and have really focused on a fertile couple wanting to use IVF to increase their chances. This is the only opportunity we will have for children of our own blood. Adoption is always an option, but as I said, it is more expensive than a few rounds of IVF and if the IVF treatment is done in this way, it seems that all the arguments are taken care of.

Please be kind and let me know your answers/responses. Clear heads get further than heads clouded with judgement!

 

[Petergee]

I sympathise with you and your fiance over his disease which apparently will tragically impact his fertility, but this does not make any difference to the fact that IVF is a serious sin. There is no way that a Catholic hospital should have any involvement in any IVF procedure.

taking into mind that there are fertilized eggs that never attach to the uterine wall and are expelled while trying to conceive having intercourse, how can you say that the embryos that do not attach during IVF are murdered.

That’s like saying, “the death rate of people aged over 90 is enormous, so if God kills so many of them how can you say it would be murder for a man to kill them?”

But murder aside, even if it were possible to collect sprem and egg cells by lawful means, and even it were possible to produce a baby from IVF without killing any other babies, IVF would still be wrong. Broadly speaking, for the same reason that contraception is wrong - it separates conception of a human being from being caused by the conjugal act.

Those are the facts my dear. I have tried to express them as kindly as I can.

I am at a loss to understand the logic of your last statement. To live as a human being one needs to make many judgements (moral and other kinds) every day. To judge correctly, a clear head is needed. Making a judgment does not “cloud” one’s mind! On the contrary, a clouded mind is the enemy of good judgment.

As for your argument for choosing IVF over adoption because it’s cheaper, obviously your mind was very clouded indeed when you said that. And if a couple has to go into debt to afford the adoption fees, they should never have applied for adoption. How are they ever going to be able to afford to bring up a child?

And if you are seriously considering this, that is, if having a baby of your own flesh and blood is THAT ALL- important to you even to the extent of being willing to commit serious sin, well you need to ask yourself if you are marrying the right man and for the right reasons.

 

[jawgee]

Dr. Thomas Hilgers from the Pope Paul VI Institute was on The World Over on EWTN the other night. Please do watch his segment. He talks a lot about IVF -

ewtn.com/tv/live/worldover.asp

Additionally, I do want to let you know that (as an adoptive mom) adoption does not have to be very expensive, and it is a blessing beyond measure. We have three bio children and one adoptive child. Choose a reputable adoption agency and understand the expenses before you go in. Remember that you can recover up to $13K of your adoption expenses from the federal government through the adoption tax credit.

(I don’t understand the “waiting without luck and 5 figures in debt” your friends are experiencing. We received a comprehensive timeline from our agency, when we chose to adopt internationally, based on the agency’s experiences with the particular country. We were blessed with our daughter approximately 18 months after we started our journey).

 

[fermat]

Dr. Thomas Hilgers from the Pope Paul VI Institute was on The World Over on EWTN the other night. Please do watch his segment. He talks a lot about IVF -

ewtn.com/tv/live/worldover.asp

Additionally, I do want to let you know that (as an adoptive mom) adoption does not have to be very expensive, and it is a blessing beyond measure. We have three bio children and one adoptive child. Choose a reputable adoption agency and understand the expenses before you go in. Remember that you can recover up to $13K of your adoption expenses from the federal government through the adoption tax credit.

(I don’t understand the “waiting without luck and 5 figures in debt” your friends are experiencing. We received a comprehensive timeline from our agency, when we chose to adopt internationally, based on the agency’s experiences with the particular country. We were blessed with our daughter approximately 18 months after we started our journey).

Which agency did you use?

 

[Chagillo]

Hi all! I have looked through this forum, searching with the search box and just combing through the pages and I have not found the answers I am looking for.

I am in a situation where the man I’m going to marry is losing his fertility due to testicular cancer. We want children once it is time and it has become increasingly difficult to adopt - we know people who are waiting without luck and 5 figures in debt! The Catholic hospital where he is being treated is able to offer IVF. They do take sperm samples, they can actually take the sample when he has his surgery without any sexual act. Then they will only create the number of embryos that are going to be used at that time for the single IVF so none are frozen and possibly “discarded”. The success rate is much better than the rate for having intercourse and trying to concieve (IVF = appx 40% success).

Also, taking into mind that there are fertilized eggs that never attach to the uterine wall and are expelled while trying to concieve having intercourse, how can you say that the embryos that do not attach during IVF are murdered. It is something that happens often - it can be a chemical miscarrage within the first trimester or just a week old human embryo that does not attach and is expelled with your normal cycle.

I understand that there are many issues and discussions about this. The ones I have found have not really involved one partner being completely infertile and have really focused on a fertile couple wanting to use IVF to increase their chances. This is the only opportunity we will have for children of our own blood. Adoption is always an option, but as I said, it is more expensive than a few rounds of IVF and if the IVF treatment is done in this way, it seems that all the arguments are taken care of.

Please be kind and let me know your answers/responses. Clear heads get further than heads clouded with judgement!

I’m sorry to hear what you are going thru. My heart goes out for you. I’m sure you know the Churches position on IVF and there is no easy answer. All I can say to you is to keep courage and that you are not alone. Look upon our Blessed Mother and her suffering, seek her comfort. She had to stand next to her only beloved son as he was Crucified for you and for me. You in a sense are giving up your children as well, just as she did. You are giving your self totally to this fortunate man just like Christ gave his Total self for all of us. Take our Blessed Mother’s hand just like the Beloved Disciple did at Calvary and walk next to our Lord.

I’m sure you already know this…but I’m just saying it so you know how greatly I fill your sorrow and will sure pray for you and your fiancée. Also I would like to recommend Dr Ray Guarendi’s web site and his book about adoption “Adoption: Choosing It, Living It, Loving It”. There practical and affordable ways to adopt out there, according to Dr Ray some cost you nothing. There is a beautiful child out there that needs a beautiful and loving Mother as I know you will be.

 

[Ron_Conte]

ccpoisonivy,

from the Instruction Donum Vitae, by then-Cardinal Ratzinger
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19870222_respect-for-human-life_en.html

“In the usual practice of in vitro fertilization, not all of the embryos are transferred to the woman’s body; some are destroyed.”

“But even in a situation in which every precaution were taken to avoid the death of human embryos, homologous IVF and ET dissociates from the conjugal act the actions which are directed to human fertilization.” [homologous means that the gametes are from the husband and wife, not from a third-party donor.]

“the so-called “simple case”, i.e. a homologous IVF and ET procedure that is free of any compromise with the abortive practice of destroying embryos and with masturbation, remains a technique which is morally illicit because it deprives human procreation of the dignity which is proper and connatural to it.” [mastrubation is intrinsically evil and always gravely immoral, even when the intention is not pleasure]

“Such fertilization is in itself illicit and in opposition to the dignity of procreation and of the conjugal union, even when everything is done to avoid the death of the human embryo.”

The term ‘in itself illicit’ means that the act is intrinsically evil. All forms of artificial procreation are intrinsically evil and always gravely immoral because they separate the unitive and procreative meanings from the marital act. Good intentions and dire circumstances can never justify an intrinsically evil act.

No Catholic hospital should be offering IVF.

 

[Spirithound]

Then they will only create the number of embryos that are going to be used at that time for the single IVF so none are frozen and possibly “discarded”.

Also, taking into mind that there are fertilized eggs that never attach to the uterine wall and are expelled while trying to concieve having intercourse, how can you say that the embryos that do not attach during IVF are murdered. It is something that happens often - it can be a chemical miscarrage within the first trimester or just a week old human embryo that does not attach and is expelled with your normal cycle.

I would like to respond to your second point first. We need to distinguish between a natural event and a moral action. A natural event is no one’s choice, there is no morality involved. A moral action, on the other hand, is someone’s choice, and it is either a good action or a bad action. A spontaneous miscarriage is no one’s fault, no one’s choice; it is a natural event. A medical abortion however, is someone’s choice, it is a bad moral action.

Now regarding this procedure specifically, I don’t see how they can create only the number of embryos necessary for one procedure. What if it doesn’t work? What if it works for all of them? Are you willing to carry 3 or 4 babies? Are the doctors willing to let you carry 3 or 4?

 

[jawgee]

Which agency did you use?

We had very specific reasons for wanting to adopt from Korea, which narrowed the list of available agencies significantly. We chose to use Wide Horizons for Children and we were extremely pleased with them.

 

[1ke]

The Catholic hospital where he is being treated is able to offer IVF.

This hospital needs to be reported to your bishop, pronto. They are in direct violation of Church teaching. Report them to the Vatican if necessary.

How reprehensible that a Catholic hospital would offer something so tempting, yet immoral, to struggling Catholics.

They do take sperm samples, they can actually take the sample when he has his surgery without any sexual act. Then they will only create the number of embryos that are going to be used at that time for the single IVF so none are frozen and possibly “discarded”. The success rate is much better than the rate for having intercourse and trying to concieve (IVF = appx 40% success).

This does not change the fact that IVF is intrinsically evil. Please read the document Donum Vitae. It’s available on the Vatican website.

This is the only opportunity we will have for children of our own blood. Adoption is always an option, but as I said, it is more expensive than a few rounds of IVF and if the IVF treatment is done in this way, it seems that all the arguments are taken care of.

Unfortunately, all the arguments are NOT taken care of. IVF itself is immoral. A child may only be conceived through a completed act of intercourse between husband and wife.

Please be kind and let me know your answers/responses. Clear heads get further than heads clouded with judgement!

I’m sure this is very heavy on your heart. It is 10 times worse that a Catholic hospital would dangle this before your eyes and not guide you in authentic Catholic teaching. It breaks my heart that they would do this.

Please know that doing the right thing before God is always its own reward. We are called to be holy people, even when it is difficult and tempting to do otherwise.

 

[baltobetsy]

ccpoisonivy, could God be calling you to marry and have a child right now?

 

[ccpoisonivy]

Thank you all for your kind words. I understand the written reasons that IVF is not approved by the Church. My questioning was because the sperm would be retrieved through surgery and they would create 3 human embryos and implant those three, using my egg. I was told at that time it would be up to God whether or not they implanted - it is not a medical abortion. Also, I understand that the act that creates children is important… since we know that we are not able to have children do we have to refrain from intercourse? Shouldn’t/couldn’t intercourse be the “act” and the IVF be the means to the end?

I am only asking these questions because they have been raised to me by good Catholics - people who can quote scripture and doctrine and have questions of their own.

One question Petergee: Did you have several thousand dollars simply banked away for nothing in particular when you had your first child? What would it have done to you if you had to pay 10, 20, or even 30 thousand dollars to concieve that child, not including any other medical expenses? This is what people go through all the time for adoption and IVF. Also to you, I believe I said …we have for our children… It is equally as important to him as it is to me to have a child of our own. I think you are being a little judgemental and misreading what I am saying. Thank you for your advice, though.

Also, in other threads the cost of IVF has been brought up time and time again. I simply wanted to point out that the cost is very comperable to adoption, not make an excuse for IVF. Please excuse me if I made it seem that way.

And I understand the thought baltobetsy, but as soon as it was discovered the surgery was scheduled. That is impossible. Good thought, but just not possible.

We need to make a final decision on this soon. I appreciate all your thoughts, prayers, and advice.

 

[Newbie2]

Hi all! I have looked through this forum, searching with the search box and just combing through the pages and I have not found the answers I am looking for.

I am in a situation where the man I’m going to marry is losing his fertility due to testicular cancer. We want children once it is time and it has become increasingly difficult to adopt - we know people who are waiting without luck and 5 figures in debt! The Catholic hospital where he is being treated is able to offer IVF.

Doesn’t matter what they call themselves. IVF is not consistant with Catholic Moral Theology

They do take sperm samples, they can actually take the sample when he has his surgery without any sexual act. Then they will only create the number of embryos that are going to be used at that time for the single IVF so none are frozen and possibly “discarded”. The success rate is much better than the rate for having intercourse and trying to concieve (IVF = appx 40% success).

So they would plan on making one embryo?

Also, taking into mind that there are fertilized eggs that never attach to the uterine wall and are expelled while trying to concieve having intercourse, how can you say that the embryos that do not attach during IVF are murdered. It is something that happens often - it can be a chemical miscarrage within the first trimester or just a week old human embryo that does not attach and is expelled with your normal cycle.

Nobody is saying that. Quite often several embryos are implanted, as it is unusual for all of them to survive, and then the “extra” ones terminated. For example, if a woman does not want twins, they may implant 3 embryos; if two survive, one is terminated.

I understand that there are many issues and discussions about this. The ones I have found have not really involved one partner being completely infertile and have really focused on a fertile couple wanting to use IVF to increase their chances. This is the only opportunity we will have for children of our own blood. Adoption is always an option, but as I said, it is more expensive than a few rounds of IVF and if the IVF treatment is done in this way, it seems that all the arguments are taken care of.

May I ask what is more important to you, $$ or making a morally responsible choice?

Please be kind and let me know your answers/responses. Clear heads get further than heads clouded with judgement!

The moral problem is with the IVF, EVEN IF only one embryo was to be created and implanted.

 

[PatriceA]

Why can’t you take the money you were going to use for IVF and continue to add to it to use for adoption? Isn’t IVF itself pretty pricey?

 

[Ron_Conte]

Thank you all for your kind words. I understand the written reasons that IVF is not approved by the Church. My questioning was because the sperm would be retrieved through surgery and they would create 3 human embryos and implant those three, using my egg. I was told at that time it would be up to God whether or not they implanted - it is not a medical abortion. Also, I understand that the act that creates children is important… since we know that we are not able to have children do we have to refrain from intercourse? Shouldn’t/couldn’t intercourse be the “act” and the IVF be the means to the end?

You have been badly misinformed. IVF is a grave sin, regardless of intention or circumstances. IVF is in itself morally evil. This is the definitive teaching of the Magisterium. See Donum Vitae and CCC n. 2376 and 2377.

A couple who are infertile may still have marital relations because the act itself is inherently directed toward procreation, even if that end is not achieved due to infertility. The act itself is still inherently good, due to its good moral object of the marital, unitive, and procreative meanings.

IVF is an evil means to a good end (children). The end does not justify the means.

Please also keep in mind that the Church teaches, and Canon law prescribes, that persons who are unrepentant from grave sin cannot receive holy Communion. And all those who are “obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to holy communion.” (Canon 915). It is a grave sin to reject the teaching of the Church against artificial procreation, and it is a grave sin to attempt to conceive by IVF.

 

[twoangels]

Thank you all for your kind words. I understand the written reasons that IVF is not approved by the Church. My questioning was because the sperm would be retrieved through surgery and they would create 3 human embryos and implant those three, using my egg. I was told at that time it would be up to God whether or not they implanted - it is not a medical abortion. Also, I understand that the act that creates children is important… since we know that we are not able to have children do we have to refrain from intercourse? Shouldn’t/couldn’t intercourse be the “act” and the IVF be the means to the end?

I am only asking these questions because they have been raised to me by good Catholics - people who can quote scripture and doctrine and have questions of their own.

One question Petergee: Did you have several thousand dollars simply banked away for nothing in particular when you had your first child? What would it have done to you if you had to pay 10, 20, or even 30 thousand dollars to concieve that child, not including any other medical expenses? This is what people go through all the time for adoption and IVF. Also to you, I believe I said …we have for our children… It is equally as important to him as it is to me to have a child of our own. I think you are being a little judgemental and misreading what I am saying. Thank you for your advice, though.

Also, in other threads the cost of IVF has been brought up time and time again. I simply wanted to point out that the cost is very comperable to adoption, not make an excuse for IVF. Please excuse me if I made it seem that way.

And I understand the thought baltobetsy, but as soon as it was discovered the surgery was scheduled. That is impossible. Good thought, but just not possible.

We need to make a final decision on this soon. I appreciate all your thoughts, prayers, and advice.

My heart goes out to you. When I started charting with Creighton, my charts were indicating that I may be suffering from infertility. I’ve had a few other times where I’ve thought I might be infertile and the thought of not having my own children has been heartbreaking. Of course, now I’m pregnant and it happened rather quickly…so…

With that all said, objectively speaking IVF is immoral for more than just grounds of “well the children could die.” The Church even considers artificial insemination immoral. I’ve heard discussions on whether adopting frozen embryos from other couples is moral in order to save the lives of those children. That’s probably the one thing I had trouble just accepting.

But ultimately the Church teaches that children have a right to be conceived through sexual intercourse and that it is immoral to look at children as commodities of to which we are either entitled to reject or to demand from Him. They are gifts from God, and ultimately we must be submissive to that. Gifts aren’t something to grasp at, but to receive or to not receive.

I would seriously enter into deep prayer over this trial. I would also look into adoption further and at cheaper forms of adoption (such as not being picky about race or starting out with a new born). Let God lead you to the path specific vocation your marriage has. How is God asking you to serve Him as a married couple? Is your inferitly a sign that God is calling you to some other non traditional form of marital Christian charity? How are you as a couple being called by God to serve Him as a married couple?

Following Christ often means leaving behind our own goals and asking God not so much for things we want, but rather asking God where He wants us and what He wants from us. Sometimes our desires are a good indication of this as God can place desires on our hearts, but sometimes our desires become an idol. Start discerning His will and realize that there are options for adoption that may work. Adoption is definitely not something that is limited to rich families, though if you’re going to insist on getting an infant or on the color of that baby’s skin, then things get a bit trickier.

And do remember that both sides of the fense (fertile or not) have their own crosses. This struggle to submit ourselves and trust God with our lives is difficult for us all. There are constant temptations everywhere whether its IVF for infertility or using contraceptives.

As one of the other posters mentioned, Dr. Ray Guarendi has a good book on adoption.

 

[Spirithound]

I’ve heard discussions on whether adopting frozen embryos from other couples is moral in order to save the lives of those children. That’s probably the one thing I had trouble just accepting.

I have heard that the Church has not yet given an answer on this question. Is that correct?

 

[Rach620]

I’m not trying to sound insensitive here, but I’m really not seeing the unique/unanswered question about IVF in the OP.

IVF is a complex moral issue because it really involves several separate moral acts, all of which are intrinsically evil: the masturbatory manner in which semen is gathered from the husband (in most cases), the creation of life in vitro and not through the loving embrace of husband and wife, the freezing of embryos in suspended animation or discarding of embryos as medical waste, the selective reduction (abortion) of additional children when “too many” embryos implant in mom.

But the central problem with IVF (and with most artificial reproductive technologies) is that it treats human life as a commodity to be created (or destroyed) when we want it to be. It is always wrong to create human life outside of the procreative and unitive embrace of husband and wife.

I know that this is not what you wanted to hear, ccpoisonivy, and I am so sorry for what you and your fiance are going through. I can’t imagine how scary his battle with cancer is for you. Infertility is a tough cross to bear–believe me, I’ve been there and done that. Infertility can make people desperate, and IVF doctors really capitalize on that desperation, telling couples that their ONLY hope for a “child of their own” is IVF. Their statistics are usually grossly exaggerated, and there are many non-IVF success stories, where couples have achieved a pregnancy using fertility treatments that are totally in keeping with the Church’s teaching on the dignity of human life.

Like other posters, I’d really recommend contacting the Pope Paul VI Institute. While they more typically deal with the causes of female infertility, their protocols can be helpful for achieving pregnancy even with male-factor infertility. Charting and timing intercourse are going to be really important tools in conceiving a child, if that’s what God wills for you.

 

[twoangels]

I have heard that the Church has not yet given an answer on this question. Is that correct?

Officially, I don’t believe so. Last I heard about it was the summer of 2005. I was attending classes at Franciscan University and a couple of my peers had taken some class that had convinced them that the moral argument was leaning toward not allowing frozen embryo adoption. Another person in the group was married and he and his wife had already adopted a frozen embryo and felt they had done the pro life thing to do.

 

[Rach620]

I have heard that the Church has not yet given an answer on this question. Is that correct?

Correct. Dignitas Personae (2008) is the latest document that made mention of the procedure, and it did not condemn or endorse it.

For a more recent theologian’s take on the debate, read this recent essay posted on Zenit.

 

[faithfully]

Hi

Is this the his first incident of TC? Or 2nd? Meaning does he lose both, or one testicle?

Do you expect chemo?

Have you been on the site for Testicular Cancer

I know from experience how hard this is to deal with… As the wife. And the fact you probably just got this DX… (the only cancer that Dr.s seem to move on at mock speed.)

Please check the TC sites. I have a friend who had TC. Lost one testicle. Was in remission for a while. Started again. Same side, He had chemo BOTH times.

He is now a daddy, NATURALLY. The other testicle does actually take over.

I know this emotional roller coaster. Hang tough. You have so much to deal with right now.

As a total unsolicited side note: They CAN put a prosthetic in. My DH had this done, and my friend had it done to. My friend had his removed later… and I think if DH could magically have it gone, he would. It’s not very comfy (so I’m told), and it reacts to temp changes in a way that is uncomfy.

My prayers to you, your husband and family… The best news is this is one of the MOST curable cancers that exist. EVEN if it’s at a very aggressive stage.

Hugs!!!