Question on IVF not answered

[faithfully]

Thank you all for your kind words. I understand the written reasons that IVF is not approved by the Church. My questioning was because the sperm would be retrieved through surgery and they would create 3 human embryos and implant those three, using my egg. I was told at that time it would be up to God whether or not they implanted - it is not a medical abortion. Also, I understand that the act that creates children is important… since we know that we are not able to have children do we have to refrain from intercourse? Shouldn’t/couldn’t intercourse be the “act” and the IVF be the means to the end?

I am only asking these questions because they have been raised to me by good Catholics - people who can quote scripture and doctrine and have questions of their own.

One question Petergee: Did you have several thousand dollars simply banked away for nothing in particular when you had your first child? What would it have done to you if you had to pay 10, 20, or even 30 thousand dollars to concieve that child, not including any other medical expenses? This is what people go through all the time for adoption and IVF. Also to you, I believe I said …we have for our children… It is equally as important to him as it is to me to have a child of our own. I think you are being a little judgemental and misreading what I am saying. Thank you for your advice, though.

Also, in other threads the cost of IVF has been brought up time and time again. I simply wanted to point out that the cost is very comperable to adoption, not make an excuse for IVF. Please excuse me if I made it seem that way.

And I understand the thought baltobetsy, but as soon as it was discovered the surgery was scheduled. That is impossible. Good thought, but just not possible.

We need to make a final decision on this soon. I appreciate all your thoughts, prayers, and advice.

I’m surprised that much time has elapsed at all. We were told on a Thursday that DH had cancer until proven otherwise. His surg. Was FRIDAY MORNING. No waiting allowed.

And IVF is, quite frankly, not even a possability. It takes weeks to prep for and go through. Unless they are taking a very weird short cut. And I would question the Dr. That would allow your husband to wait it out. Considered a HUGE red flag.

Now, is there ANY chance that you are close to ovulation right now? That they could trigger your ovulation with a shot. You and DH could make one last final natural shot at it?
Just thinkin’ out loud…

 

[Seatuck]

Children have the right to be created from a loving marital act performed by their parents without the introduction of anything artificial or a third party.

Infertility is a big cross to bear. Immoral means cannot be looked to in an attempt to alleviate the suffering and provide a child.

My sympathy and prayers on the cancer .

 

[rayne89]

.

Now, is there ANY chance that you are close to ovulation right now? That they could trigger your ovulation with a shot. You and DH could make one last final natural shot at it?
Just thinkin’ out loud…

I am in a situation where the man I’m going to marry…

He’s not her DH yet -they are not married.

 

[faithfully]

He’s not her DH yet -they are not married.

That could be fixed faster than any of these other issues…

 

[Petergee]

since we know that we are not able to have children do we have to refrain from intercourse? …
I am only asking these questions because they have been raised to me by good Catholics - people who can quote scripture and doctrine

I’m struggling to believe that any Catholic who had even a rudimentary knowledge of Catholic doctrine would think that a couple who are infertile are compelled to refrain from intercourse.

One question Petergee: Did you have several thousand dollars simply banked away for nothing in particular when you had your first child?

Not “for nothing in particular”, but my future wife and I delayed getting married until I had finished by uni degree and had a good steady job and we had a few thousand dollars saved up for what we knew would be the expenses we would face, including most of all, any children with whom God might bless us.

What would it have done to you if you had to pay 10, 20, or even 30 thousand dollars to concieve that child, not including any other medical expenses? This is what people go through all the time for adoption and IVF.

If that is the case, it is still dwarfed by the ttal cost of something like $400,000 which I saw quoted as the cost of raising a child until he becomes independent. (Of course if the child is diasabled in some way it could be a lot more and he could be dependent for life).

Also to you, I believe I said …we have for our children… It is equally as important to him as it is to me to have a child of our own. I think you are being a little judgemental and misreading what I am saying. Thank you for your advice, though.

If by “judgmental” you mean that I am making judgments about what is objectively right and wrong, I take it as a compliment. If you meant that I am saying that you are going to Hell, you are mistaken.

What I meant was, having a baby is not the be al and end all MUST have #1 priority. Your first priority is to God. Then after you get maried your #2 priority is your husband. You must accept children if you are blessed with them, but I imagine your fiance needs your support right now and neither he nor you should be thinking of manipulating things to procreate chikldren in defiance of the natural law.

 

[Big_Dummy]

forgive my lack of knowledge, how exactly is IVF a sin?

And, for the person who started this thread, why not get married before the surgery and try for a child?

 

[faithfully]

I’m just going to pop in for a second… As I have experience being married to a man with Testicular Cancer (TC).

For those offering suggetions that take time… there is NO TIME, unless the Op has a BAD doctor.

Believe it or not, when TC is determined, surgury happens within a day, 2 at most. Not like breast cancer that can take 6 weeks before you see an OR.

It’s even recommended that if your Doc. says “let’s wait until Monday, 'cause he’s busy Sat.” Get a new doc.

It’s the only cancer in my experience that is treated at mock speed. It can be very difficult to assimilate ALL the issues at hand. You literally may only have 24 hours to make any decisions. Getting one’s self educated on something like IVF (which I don’t understand how there is time for) and the church’s teachings… Well, one has to take the yes/no answer. There is not adequate time to get to the core of it… plus determine all that is necessary and coordinated for the empending surgury.

There are a few viable, allowable options. But timing is of the essence.

 

[ccpoisonivy]

First of all, thank you.

I’m sorry that some of you didn’t read my entire post and I’m thankful that others stepped in and answered their questions.

The surgery was scheduled about a week after diagnosis. This is to give time for further tests to see if it went lymphatic and for a second opinion as this surgery will take away his fertility entirely, it is bilateral. Timing and charting will not help once we are married.

You are correct, this does move at mach speed! Therefore, there is no time to get married in the Church and try for a child before the surgery.

Thank you for the idea, faithfully, but that is not an option.

Asking these questions are MY way of coping with this. If anyone here thinks I am not there for my fiancee they are sorely mistaken. Every couple of days I am spending twenty minutes online further educating myself about an aspect of my faith that directly relates to a major event in my life… I’d hope that anyone out there would be thrilled about that. Honestly, how many Catholics would have said “oh, we are being treated at a Catholic hospital… this must be ok” and go ahead with it?

Also, as we are not married yet, they are not talking about using IVF right now, it was a future option. So no wierd shortcuts.

Any pointsI had made about money were more to show the comparable rates of adoption vs. IVF. Not to say that we could only afford one or the other or something like that.

I appreciate everyone who posted documentation. I can read the reasons why in your own words all day, but until documentation is posted it is all opinion. I deeply appreciate that.

I am also thankful that someone brought up embryo adoption. If the church still allows this it may be an option, a chance for us to save a life as well. In my opinion, if the embryos are already created, the only option to give that child a fighting chance is to attempt implantation instead of discarding… I’ve read a little on this and am interested in learning more. As I said, knowing that there are multiple options out there for us helps ME cope with what is happening. It also gives me the opportunity to speak to him about what I’ve learned if this comes up and give him some reassurance. I appreciate it!

Finally, petergee, first, all my questions came about from something a Catholic had said. The question about refraining from intercourse came because procreation is the ultimate reason to procreate. If that is not possible, should we still procreate? HOW is that a bad or stupid question? HOW can someone with even a rudementary knowledge of docterine NOT ask that question when one of the main arguments against IVF is that the couple does not engage in the act? The money question was more a point: the total amount is over 18 years with income from the parents figured in. I mean, how many people blessed with a child could pay that much simply to concieve and are still AMAZING parents? It is just a reminder for everyone that people who adopt and choose IVF are facing those challenges, regardless of tax breaks after the fact.

It is entirely possible to have your head clouded by judgement. Cults and zealots prove that point every day.

I did not mean it on that scale when I stated that before, however. By “judgmental”, I meant just that: you are judging my fiancee and I when I came here for guidance. By this simple statement: "but I imagine your fiance needs your support right now and neither he nor you should be thinking of manipulating things to procreate chikldren in defiance of the natural law." you proved my point. You offered no documentation and made VERY harsh statements, even after I asked for kind words. I am the one here, not him. Education is my way of handling these issues. We are not thinking of manipulating things in defiance of the natural law, not now that some posters gave me facts. We want to know what is right and wrong by the Church. Surely you can see how HUGE of a blow this is to a young couple such as us?

So, I thank you for your statements and advice. Mine to you is to soften your words. As is obvious by other posters in this thread, you can still make your point crystal clear and not hurt feelings and come off as someone who gloats over telling people Catholic law. You may also want to pepper your posts with documentation too…

If I sounded harsh I apologize.

Blessings to all…

 

[faithfully]

Wow… Bilateral is rare… especially all at once. I’m sorry to hear that.

Honestly, at this point, I would go talk to your priest. Really hash this out. I understand how hard this is. And your situation is going to be quite final. This is truly going to be an emotional roller coaster. For both of you. I highly encourage the reminder to your fiancee to speak openly about his feelings with you. He’s going to have LOTS!

In my effort not to burden DH with my concerns I used to take long hot showers and cry for a good solid 30 minutes… It turned out he thought I was just not “caring very much” So, be open.

I don’t know all the ins and the outs… but you are “allowed” to have sex with your partner even if you’re known to be sterile as a couple. Women are often rendered completely sterile as well for various reasons.

 

[ccpoisonivy]

OK, I have one more question that I would appreciate some documentation to back the answers if there are any.

Would it be a sin if we do choose to have the sperm frozen, that is taken out during surgery, just in case some medical advancement comes in the next 5 - 10 that the Church does approve? There is no masturbatory act and no human embryo, just the sperm. Who knows, there may be an advancement where they may be able to restore his fertility in the future using this tissue…

Anyway, I was just wondering if anyone has any answers to this. I may start a new thread if no one answers.

Blessings!

 

[1ke]

OK, I have one more question that I would appreciate some documentation to back the answers if there are any.

Would it be a sin if we do choose to have the sperm frozen, that is taken out during surgery, just in case some medical advancement comes in the next 5 - 10 that the Church does approve? There is no masturbatory act and no human embryo, just the sperm. Who knows, there may be an advancement where they may be able to restore his fertility in the future using this tissue…

Anyway, I was just wondering if anyone has any answers to this. I may start a new thread if no one answers.

Blessings!

I don’t see anything morally problematic with freezing his tissue/sperm taken out during surgery in the hopes of future treatment for him that could restore his fertility.

 

[Petergee]

I don’t see anything morally problematic with freezing his tissue/sperm taken out during surgery in the hopes of future treatment for him that could restore his fertility.

If his fertility (please God) can be restored, then he will have no need for the immoral use of frozen sperm.

 

[Chagillo]

Read the story of this beatiful life… Blessed Chiara ‘Luce’ Badano. She was just beatify by Pope Benedict this September. Lets pray that she intercedes for you and your fiancée.

“Blessed Chiara ‘Luce’ Badano” precious sister please pray for this couple. Take our petition before of our Lord Jesus Christ. If it is his will… that they get married and have their child thru natural means. “Blessed Chiara ‘Luce’ Badano” precious sister please pray for this couple that if it is God’s will to make their marriage fruitful and full of blessings. Please pray…too… that this couple may accept the will that God has for them and give them strength and wisdom to follow God’s Grace. Amen

 

[Petergee]

Honestly, how many Catholics would have said “oh, we are being treated at a Catholic hospital… this must be ok” and go ahead with it?

Many, sadly. Yes you have done well to ask here whether what is proposed is morally OK. But if you ask the question you need to be ready to accept the Church’s answer even if it is not what you wanted.

Finally, petergee, first, all my questions came about from something a Catholic had said. The question about refraining from intercourse came because procreation is the ultimate reason to procreate (sic.- engage in the conjugal act).

The Church teaches that procreation AND unification of the husband and wife are the TWO reasons for sexuality which must not be wilfully separated by man.

If that is not possible, should we still procreate ( engage in the conjugal act)? HOW is that a bad or stupid question?

I didn’t say it was bad or stupid, I said I was surprised that “good Catholics - people who can quote scripture and doctrine” would ask such a question.

HOW can someone with even a rudementary knowledge of docterine NOT ask that question when one of the main arguments against IVF is that the couple does not engage in the act?

Not exactly, the reasion is that the conception does not result from the conjugal act.

It is entirely possible to have your head clouded by judgement. Cults and zealots prove that point every day.

No they don’t. People who follow cults have made **bad ** judgments because they already had clouded heads. And being a zealot is not a bad thing as long as you have made a correct judgement and so your zeal is for the truth. Zeal is one of the seven cardinal virtues, the opposite of sloth.

I did not mean it on that scale when I stated that before, however. By “judgmental”, I meant just that: you are judging my fiancee and I

I certainly am not.

when I came here for guidance.

Which I am doing my best to provide.

By this simple statement: "but I imagine your fiance needs your support right now and neither he nor you should be thinking of manipulating things to procreate chikldren in defiance of the natural law." you proved my point. You offered no documentation

Because, as you just said, several others had already provided ample documentation of ewhat the Church teaches on this matter, e.g. RonConte in post 6. Why did I need to repeat the same links?

and made VERY harsh statements, even after I asked for kind words.

Sorry but I cannot see anyting I said here which was harsh. I stated the facts plainly as I see them. I* understand that the answers you have received have bitterly disappointed you, but please don’t shoot the messenger.

I am the one here, not him. Education is my way of handling these issues. We are not thinking of manipulating things in defiance of the natural law, not now that some posters gave me facts.

Wonderful, I’m delighted to hear it.

 

[ccpoisonivy]

The spermatic tissue that will be taken out is the tissue that holds/produces the sperm. Not just sperm. I asked because they can regrow ears on mice now… I am praying for a similar Church approved way of either restoring fertility or creating Church approved help with infertile couples - either way, this tissue/sperm is necessary.

Thank you all for your prayers and help with this. I am seriously researching embryo adoption and, although we will not be “trying” for children for a while (either type of adoption), it is good to have the knowledge now for my own peace of mind.

If we are not called to have children, we will simply have more time to volunteer our time to help others.

Thank you again.

 

[user3856530]

Why can’t you take the money you were going to use for IVF and continue to add to it to use for adoption? Isn’t IVF itself pretty pricey?

We did IVF (didn’t realise it was against Catholic doctrine) and it cost about €3000. I also know people trying to adopt and so far it have cost them over €20,000. They still do not have a child.

 

[PatriceA]

We did IVF (didn’t realise it was against Catholic doctrine) and it cost about €3000. I also know people trying to adopt and so far it have cost them over €20,000. They still do not have a child.

See, I have two different friends, one Catholic, married and they adopted, $10,000. The other, not Catholic, did IVF, also $10,000. That’s why I asked the question I did.

 

[user3856530]

I suppose it depends on where you do the IVF.
Where I live it is pretty pricey, and the clinics cherry pick. We went to the Czech Republic where it’s cheaper.
You also don’t have much hope adopting here either, especially as you get older.

 

[mac123]

Hi! I am so sorry that your fiance is battling cancer–I will keep you in my prayers! I truly understand the desire for biological children–there is no greater gift. If you decide to undergo IVF treatments I pray that you will be successful. I have 6-month old twins that we were blessed with after IVF. They are beautiful and truly are gifts from God! I consulted my priest before treatments and he was 100% supportive of our decision! Good luck to you and your future husband–I hope you will be as blessed as we have been!!

 

[ccpoisonivy]

I suppose it depends on where you do the IVF.
Where I live it is pretty pricey, and the clinics cherry pick. We went to the Czech Republic where it’s cheaper.
You also don’t have much hope adopting here either, especially as you get older.

Well, I’m in a different part of the world than you, and don’t think we’ll be able to go to the Czech Replubic for anything, let alone medical treatment.

I know that adoption agencies make you wait until the cancer has been in remission for a few years before you can adopt. I think we’ll cross that bridge, armed with knowledge, when we get there.

Thank you!