Question on IVF not answered

  • Thread starter Thread starter ccpoisonivy
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I follow the Ten Commandments. Not arbitrary stuff tacked on by the Catholic Church.
The Ten Commandments are quite clear. I follow them.
A grave misunderstanding of Who founded the Church and why.
We didn’t murder any embryos, we only had one. As far as I’m concerned our whole IVF treatment was an expression of our love, and didn’t interfere with our marriage.
IVF is a grave sin against God.
So I didn’t commit adultery.
You committed a grave wrong against the Sixth Commandment. Sin requires full knowledge and free will, and you may have lacked knowledge that it is wrong-- God knows our hearts and our minds, so only he can judge sinfulness. We, however, can judge the rightness or wrongness of an act based on God’s law and the authority he gave the Church to teach.
God has the grace to allow humans find a cure for our infertility, and we took that. I’m thankful to God.
People thought up abortion procedures. People thought up the gas chambers. People thought up the atomic bomb. People thought up the contraceptive pill. People think up all sorts of things, and find the technological means to carry them out.

That a thing exists or is possible does not correlate to its morality.
IVF was invented in the 1970s. The Catholic Church then came up with this doctrine to encompass it.
The Church applies God’s law, which is timeless. Doctors in the 70s weren’t the first to think up assisted reproductive options-- they merely thought of new ways to achieve it. Abraham took Sarah’s maid in order that Sarah might have a child. That was the pre-technology era solution. It was wrong then, and remains wrong today. Only the conjugal act between husband and wife properly order our sexuality in the way God designed it.
To deny children to people who have medical conditions is evil in my opinion. How dare humans deny God’s love?
To violate God’s law is evil. It harms our souls and risks our eternal destiny.
I suppose my humble opinion is worth much to the Catholic Church. Maybe it might be worth something to others considering IVF.

In what way does IVF violate the sixth commandment?
I suggest you read the Catechism section I posted along with the Church encyclical Donum Vitae.
 
One: Sexual intercourse within marriage with consenting adults with the goal to reproduce. (hopefully an easy one to start)

Two: Same as one, but couple are having fertility problems. A strict diet is used to help increase fertility

Three: Same as two, but the male partner uses Viagra because they have erectile dysfunction.

Four: Same as two, but the female partner uses pregnyl, a drug that promotes ovulation.

Five: Same as two, but with both Viagra and Pregnyl.

Six. Same as two, but the Viagra is not working, so the male partner has surgery and an implant is inserted into the penis so that an erection can be maintained.

Seven: Same as two. The male partner has an accident and has to get an artificial penis. He uses this for sexual intercourse.
These would be morally permissable. Treatments correct a defect of the reproductive organs and do not replace or simulate intercourse.
Eight. Same as two. The male partner extracts his own sperm using a syringe, and puts this into the female by means other than his penis.
This would not be moral. It replaces intercourse.
Nine. Same as two. The female has a problem with her uterus. She has surgery and an artificial uterus is implanted. They have reproductive intercourse.
This would be morally permissable. Treatments correct a defect of the reproductive organs and do not replace or simulate intercourse.
Ten: Same as two. The male partner (who is also an embryologist) extracts one egg from the female and uses his own sperm to fertilise it. This is then implanted back into the female partner.
This would not be moral. It replaces intercourse.
 
There seems to be agreement that eight and ten would be the ones against Catholic Doctrine.

I would just like to explore this a bit futher:
In #7, even though some major parts of both partners have been replaced with artificial prostheses, those prostheses are now part of their bodies.
Many prostheses are detachable, such as artificial legs, eyes and teeth. So let us say that there is a new hypothetical scenario where the prosthetic penis is detachable.

Eleven: Sexual intercourse within marriage with consenting adults with the goal to reproduce.
The male has a detachable prosthetic penis that he uses for intercourse. The female partner also has an artificial uterus.

Twelve: Sexual intercourse within marriage with consenting adults with the goal to reproduce. Immediately after sexual intercourse, the female partner has her egg removed, and some of the ejaculated sperm. These are fertilised in vitro and then implanted back into the female. In this case sexual intercourse has not been replaced or interrupted.

Are these two scenarios acceptable?

They may seem far-fetched examples, however, it’s the Catholic Doctrine that I’m interested in.
 
There seems to be agreement that eight and ten would be the ones against Catholic Doctrine.

I would just like to explore this a bit futher:

Many prostheses are detachable, such as artificial legs, eyes and teeth. So let us say that there is a new hypothetical scenario where the prosthetic penis is detachable.

Eleven: Sexual intercourse within marriage with consenting adults with the goal to reproduce.
The male has a detachable prosthetic penis that he uses for intercourse. The female partner also has an artificial uterus.

Twelve: Sexual intercourse within marriage with consenting adults with the goal to reproduce. Immediately after sexual intercourse, the female partner has her egg removed, and some of the ejaculated sperm. These are fertilised in vitro and then implanted back into the female. In this case sexual intercourse has not been replaced or interrupted.

Are these two scenarios acceptable?

They may seem far-fetched examples, however, it’s the Catholic Doctrine that I’m interested in.
I think it might be best for you to start a new thread about the different scenerios, present and future, that apply to IVF and Catholic Doctrine. At this point, I think we’re not helping the OP very much and her situation is very serious and we should respect the sensitivity of the decisions she and her fiance need to make. We’re starting to lose sight that one of the CAF members is in a very tough place right now.
 
Okay, I’ll start a new thread.

I agree that the OP’s situation is very serious. This is exactly why I’m doing this.
It would be terrible if the OP, or other people, decided against IVF because of flawed logic.
 
Okay, I’ll start a new thread.

I agree that the OP’s situation is very serious. This is exactly why I’m doing this.
It would be terrible if the OP, or other people, decided against IVF because of flawed logic.
Am I misunderstanding you? After all the sources cited and the discussion in this thread, you still think IVF is a viable option for Catholics or that the Church’s stance on IVF is somehow flawed? You can argue any scenerio you want, but the bottom line is still and has been IVF is not a an option for Catholics that are true to their faith and its teachings. There is no way around that, no matter how you try to justify it.
 
Eleven: Sexual intercourse within marriage with consenting adults with the goal to reproduce.
The male has a detachable prosthetic penis that he uses for intercourse. The female partner also has an artificial uterus.

Twelve: Sexual intercourse within marriage with consenting adults with the goal to reproduce. Immediately after sexual intercourse, the female partner has her egg removed, and some of the ejaculated sperm. These are fertilised in vitro and then implanted back into the female. In this case sexual intercourse has not been replaced or interrupted.
I should note somewhere here that this is my own interpretation of the principles the Church has given, and I am open to being corrected when Holy Mother Church rules on these situations.

Having noted that…
11. Morally acceptable. I may have over-implied the importance of the various parts being “true” parts of the partners’ bodies in Scenario 7. I feel that it is important that the parts be “part” of their bodies, but basically because it allows the husband/wife team to engage in sexual intercourse. So in 11, it does not matter that the prosthetic penis is detachable, because it is still used as a real penis is meant to be used.
  1. Morally unacceptable. Sexual intercourse is an essential part of procreation, but natural fertilization is equally important.
 
After all the sources cited and the discussion in this thread, you still think IVF is a viable option for Catholics or that the Church’s stance on IVF is somehow flawed?
Yes I do believe it’s flawed. There are no sources to say that IVF is somehow immoral, it’s just interpreted that way by the Catholic Church. Just like the Sun going around the Earth.

God gave me my own brain for a reason.
 
Thank you for posting a creative argument with the scenarios; however, it does not matter if the Church is “right” or “wrong” in their interpretation of a commandment involving modern medicine. What matters here is that they have deemed it a sin. Because of that, followers may not engage in that act (IVF). Period. This is what I’ve been told. I think people have a few things confused, because I was told it is NOT a mortal sin. It is NOT on the same level as adultry or murder. Told by a priest, actually.

I have been following the discussion closely and was wondering how into this debate we were going to get. It seems that regardless of prosthetics, as long as the item helps the human body function “normally” with the users power controlling it, it is ok by the Church. If a human embryo is created OUTSIDE the mother’s womb, it is wrong.

Thank you for considering my feelings as well. This has been very difficult. The thing that I think has been the hardest is listening to people with pregnancy tickers in their signatures, or people who have done IVF and found out after the fact it is “wrong”. I know you want to help, but, no offense, you have your miracle at home. It is hard to read what you say when it doesn’t really matter to you - you no longer have to make that decision.

Also, thank you for the PMs. You know who you are. I really enjoyed talking and your insight made a lot of difference.

Blessings.
 
I got IVF done and I’m not sorry because I do not believe I sinned. So for me, I won’t be asking for ‘forgiveness’, but this option is certainly open for other Catholics. People really need to weigh it up. Are they going to forfeit the only chance they may get for having children? Remember that in 300 years time the Church may have changed it’s mind…
this is the same logic my sister used to justify her abortion.

We are here to do God’s will not to indulge ourselves. This is very, very hard for many people to accept. We all have crosses to bear. Some face infertility, some physical or mental handicap, some face sexual attraction disorders, etc. All of us have issues that we must learn to live with and accept.
 
I know you want to help, but, no offense, you have your miracle at home. It is hard to read what you say when it doesn’t really matter to you - you no longer have to make that decision.
I thought we might not ever have children. I have been around the emotional roller-coaster, getting all sorts of tests done. Sitting there while consultants tell us the bad news and feeling like absolute **** afterwards. I did this for years. I’m not in your position, so I don’t know what’s going through your mind. The best you can do is try to keep positive and find solutions. There are some good boards like fertilityfriends.co.uk that might be of support.

To say I don’t have to make the decision isn’t quite correct. I’ve found out that the Catholic church deems what I have done to be immoral. I’m making the decision to stick by what I’ve done. I’m not going to ask for ‘forgiveness’.
This is what I’ve been told. I think people have a few things confused, because I was told it is NOT a mortal sin. It is NOT on the same level as adultry or murder. Told by a priest, actually.
Sounds like a very sensible priest. People like this give me hope.

I really do wish you the best. It’s a terrible place to be. Lets hope things will only get better. I’m sure whatever decision you do make, you’ll do for the right reasons.
 
user3856530 I was not talking about you when I said that. I was talking to some of the people who have posted or messaged me (really everyone except for two people - you shared your very personal stories, you know who you are) who say something along the lines of “I did IVF and I didn’t know it was a sin. After, I talked to my priest and I was mortified when I found out. Thank God I have my beautiful baby and 12 frozen embryos in case we want more, but it is a mortal sin. You can not do it. The Church says so.” My point of view is Ummm… OK. I’m not sure why you felt the need to message me to basically say thank God you have yours, but I can’t have mine. You read the thread. You know that people posted the literature. It makes it worse that you still have frozen embryos and you can still expand your family AND YOU POINT THAT OUT. That option is still open to you because you didn’t educate yourself on the subject that is apparently very easy to find information on.

I may sound bitter, but it is the same thing as people with pregnancy tickers posting in the lost child/infertility area. It seems insensitive to me. Please keep this in mind in the future.

And again, I thank you very much for all your help, stories, and encouraging words. Most of all for the prayers.

Blessings.
 
We all have crosses to bear. Some face infertility, some physical or mental handicap, some face sexual attraction disorders, etc.
And some of us have all 3 of those plus extras! God is great! :extrahappy:
 
IVF was invented in the 1970s. The Catholic Church then came up with this doctrine to encompass it.
Nonsense. The Church has always and will always have the same basic doctrine concerning procreation, because this is the trutrh. Truth does not change becasue of the pasage of time or technological advances.

In fact the Church clearlyand specifically taught that IVF is immoral when it was only a hypothetical possibility, years before it was first practised in the late 1970s. And any Catholic who had a basic understanding of his faith, even if he did not know of specific Catholic teaching re IVF, would naturally conclude that such a thing just has to be immoral.

Half a century before IVF was invented, the agnostic Aldous Huxley wrote the best-selling satiric novel, Brave New World, which discribes a horrific imagined future world, with among horrors, IVF. Huxley and all his readers at the time, regardless of their religious beliefs, could see at once that IVF was horribly immoral and dehumanising.
To deny children to people who have medical conditions is evil in my opinion. How dare humans deny God’s love?
Nobody is denying children to anybody. The Church, and basic morality regardless of anyone’s religious beliefs, is saying that nobody has an **absolute **“right” to a child. Just as it is very wrong for an infertile couple to snatch a baby away from his parents without their consent and bring him up as their own, so it is very wrong to “obtain” a child via IVF. And not just wriong for Catholics, but for everyone, everywhere, now and always. Apart from anything else IVF treats a human being as a commodity to be obtained, not as a gift of God.
I suppose my humble opinion is worth much to the Catholic Church.
You suppose wrongly. You obviously know little about the subject.
 
Nonsense. The Church has always and will always have the same basic doctrine concerning procreation, because this is the trutrh. Truth does not change becasue of the pasage of time or technological advances.
Yes, poor Galileo.

The jury is out on this one it seems:
www2.loras.edu/~CatholicHE/Arch/Sexuality/Gamete.html
Half a century before IVF was invented, the agnostic Aldous Huxley wrote the best-selling satiric novel, Brave New World, which discribes a horrific imagined future world, with among horrors, IVF. Huxley and all his readers at the time, regardless of their religious beliefs, could see at once that IVF was horribly immoral and dehumanising.
Yes, I’ve read that novel. It is more to do with the effects of a totalitarian state rather than IVF. What else could be regarded as totalitarian? The Catholic church perhaps?
Not such a good example for you to use!

As I mentioned in another post, I do not believe I have a ‘right’ to a child. We had a problem with our fertility, which we addressed.
The Church, however, is explicitly saying that people in our position have no right to reproduce.
 
Yes, poor Galileo.
:confused:
As I said, the Church has always and will always have the same basic doctrine concerning procreation, because this is the truth. Truth does not change because of the passage of time or technological advances. You seem to be trying to twist my words into the absurd statement “the Church foresees and has always foreseen all possible future technological advances and has already fully worked out all of the moral implications of using them all in every possible way, arising from the unchangeable truth concerning procreation.”
Yes, I’ve read that novel. It is more to do with the effects of a totalitarian state rather than IVF.
I suggest you read it again with both eyes open. Huxley’s point is that, contrary to the common belief of the time that expanding technology would deliver a Paradise on Earth, technology untrammelled by morality would deliver Hell on Earth, regardless of whatever system of government exists. The very title of the novel is a satirical quote from Shakespeare’s The Tempest, :
Code:
*"O wonder!
How many goodly creatures are there here!
How beautious mankind is!
O brave new world,
**That has such people in't!**" *
The existence of IVF is the central horror of the novel, and the one which Huxley’s contemporary readers found the most shocking.
What else could be regarded as totalitarian?
The dictatorship of the moral relativism which rules in most Western countries, which blinds some to the obvious immorality of practices such as IVF and contraception (also condemned by the agnostic Huxley and by virtually the whole population regardess of religion, within living memory. But some among us think that 1980 was “Year Zero”.
The Catholic church perhaps?
The Catholic Church has always been and remains the strongest and surest, and often the only, opponent of totalitarianism - such as on the very topic under discussion. Not such a good example for** you** to use!
As I mentioned in another post, I do not believe I have a ‘right’ to a child.
You said, absurdly,
There are no sources to say that IVF is somehow immoral,…
I’ve found out that the Catholic church deems what I have done to be immoral. I’m making the decision to stick by what I’ve done. I’m not going to ask for ‘forgiveness’.
These certainly sound like the statements of one who is under the delusion that he has an absolute “right” to a child.
We had a problem with our fertility, which we addressed.
No, you didn’t address your fertility problem at all. You completely avoided addressing it and replaced the conjugal act with the immoral commodification of human beings. You are still just as infertile as you ever were. Only know you have a child to “show and tell” so that you can falsely claim to people that you are not infertile. But you know that you are.
The Church, however, is explicitly saying that people in our position have no right to reproduce.
The Church says nothing of the sort either explicitly or even implicitly.
 
Moderator,

I have my answer along with a lot of research information to read. Can we please close my thread so people can take their bickering else where?

I asked what the Church’s viewpoint was on IVF and was given the answer. I was also given other opinions and information to educate myself with about other options.

I greatly appreciate that. But now people are calling each other absurd and fighting about their opinion. I’ll forego any further posts/advice about my issue just to have this closed so people will STOP their petty fighting. I look everytime there is a new post to see if there are any other people posting with the same or a similar situation who can offer advice/prayers. Not schoolyard bickering.

Just once I wish people would pay attention to the main issue/question and remember that there is someone picking through all the fighting to get an answer. Someone who has feelings.

Regardless whether you THINK IVF is right or wrong, it is against the Church. That is my answer. And instead of many posts of loving support and advice, I get silly fighting.

Thanks to those who helped.

The OP

ccpoisonivy
 
Regardless whether you THINK IVF is right or wrong, it is against the Church. That is my answer. And instead of many posts of loving support and advice, I get silly fighting.
As you said, the Church teaches the truth that IVF is wrong. When somebody denies that truth, especially if he uses absurd and self-contradictory arguments to do so, it is not “silly” or "bickering’ or “fighting” to non-violently and politely point out his error. In fact Catholics have a duty to do so.

Just because you started the thred does not mean that you own it and have the right to gag other commenters or control what they talk about. I, like I’m sure most other regulars here, very frequently see that new posts have been added to threads I am interested in, and I click on them only to often find that the new posts are of no interest to me.
 
In respect for ccpoisonivy and her situation this will be my last post.

user3856530 wrote
I got IVF done and I’m not sorry because I do not believe I sinned. So for me, I won’t be asking for ‘forgiveness’, but this option is certainly open for other Catholics. People really need to weigh it up. Are they going to forfeit the only chance they may get for having children? Remember that in 300 years time the Church may have changed it’s mind
I have two beautiful children.
I’ll like to propose a different scenario:
*-Lets imaging our government in the future became similar to China’s but different. They came one day and said that I could only keep one of my children. After I choose one, the other was going to be lock up for an undetermined amount of time. I will have no way of knowing if my second child was going to survive in this prison and the chances of him getting out safe where low.

How could I in good conscience choose which of my two children live free or frozen with little chance of survival? How can I be sure my child was not already thrown out in the garbage and no longer exist or given out by mistake? *

This is just food for thought for user3856530.

Like I said. This is my last post.

God bless!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top