Question on Pauline authorship

[Theban]

I have not read any part of Dei Verbum, I shamefully admit, so if it says that it is possible to question the authorship of Paul, then I’ll take your word for it.

I couldn’t find anything on the USCCB website either, so I’m not sure what you’re referencing there.

Anyway, if the Church says we’re not required to believe that Paul wrote the Pauline letters, then I am clearly wrong. I do, however, find it bordering on blasphemy to suggest parts of Sacred Scripture is written by an impostor pretending to be a holy Apostle.

 

[rose321]

It’s not that simple.

Respectfully toward>>>Thank you Spyridon for the info given and I have learned something new from you today!

 

[bobperk]

Sorry, the grammar and writing style of your post is hard to follow.

The supposed differences in St. Paul’s writings concerning women are just that - supposed. Paul clearly defines the permissible ministry of women against those duties to be performed only by men. And in some cases, the audience of his writings determined what he wrote about them.

Not sure what your point about St. Paul writing in Greek is about. The entire Old Testament was translated into Greek in the 3rd century BC.

The lack of original manuscripts does not pose a problem. I suggest you read up on the written transmission of ancient texts. If anything, the findings from Qumran prove the accuracy with which the Scriptures were copied.

 

[RyanBlack]

I do, however, find it bordering on blasphemy to suggest parts of Sacred Scripture is written by an impostor pretending to be a holy Apostle.

The use of pseudonyms, including a writer using the name of the teacher whose teachings shaped his own beliefs was fairly common at the time of the writing of the New Testament.

 

[BartholomewB]

A Catholic is bound to believe that the Holy Spirit, God Himself, is the primary author of Sacred Scripture, and that Scripture is infallible.

That is Catholic dogma. Unquestionable as far as Catholic faith is concerned.

Are you sure about that? To my untutored ear, that sounds more like the doctrine of certain Protestant churches. The Catholic Church teaches that all Sacred Scripture is inspired by God, but I don’t think that’s the same thing as God being the “primary author.”

 

[BartholomewB]

The only - only - point that matters is that the Church, with God-given authority, has definitively ruled on the content and the collection of the books.

Well, yes and no. The “collection,” yes. The canon has been essentially unchanged, I think, since Jerome and the Council of Rome, if not earlier. But the content is still fluid, in places, even today. Catholics still disagree about the preferable reading of the manuscripts, here and there, without breaking any Church rules.

 

[po18guy]

The content, i.e. relating to faith and morals, has not changed. Interpretations of that content do vary, but must agree with the totality of the deposit of faith.

 

[BartholomewB]

The content, i.e. relating to faith and morals, has not changed.

When you said “the content,” I thought you mean the text of each book in the original language. Did I misunderstand you?

 

[Francis]

Respectfully can one give that post where I said Catholic Worship Mary?

Gen 3:15 >states to honor her as given by God.
One honors, Loves our Blessed Mother Mary, but one does not worship her, that would be breaking the 1st Commandment and would be idolatry, would it not?

And this topic title is about Question on Pauline authorship is it not about our Blessed Mary?

yes, now Did i say, it’s about the Blessed Mary ? please don’t assume

This also was in the early beginnings all did not go smoothly afterwards with St Paul, James the Brother and the Lord and St Peter, leaving in the end St Paul all alone where all Apostles left him, all written by St Paul himself, is it not?

no one said its going to be smoothly,Jesus said to take up your cross and follow me,Jesus elected St Peter as the head of the Catholic Church and over the Apostolic collage,Matthew 16:16-18 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God.17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. all the Apostle and including Paul where obedient to Peter as the vicar of Christ on Earth. though they had difference of opinion on certain issues.

no one has the authority to change the very words of Jesus

Luke 10:16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me, and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”

John 12:48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my word has a judge; on the last day the word that I have spoken will serve as judge

Matthew 5:18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter,[c] not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore, whoever breaks[d] one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Peter especial received the prayers of Jesus in John 17

Luke 22:31 “Simon, Simon, listen! Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, 32 but I have prayed for you that your own faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.” (other Apostles )33 And he said to him, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death!” 34 Jesus said, “I tell you, Peter, the cock will not crow this day, until you have denied three times that you know me.”

 

[Dan_Defender]

I would add that the Dead Sea Scrolls have Psalm 151, which contains biographical details about King David so this further supports him as the author.

 

[po18guy]

Oh, probably, since I am frequently misunderstood. Yes, manuscripts do vary, as they were hand-copied by those in various times, places, cultures and languages. But, the faith and morals they explain are consistent.

 

[Francis]

All who gathered James the Brother of the Lord, St Peter, St Paul, Barnabas, Jerusalem Council, Elders, stood up where all voiced their concerns, did they not?

Acts 15 :2… it was Peter always who lead and finalized all problems faced by the Church,right from as being the head of all the Apostles Act Ch 2:14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, raised his voice and addressed them, “Men of Judea and all who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen to what I say.

Acts 15:6 The apostles and the elders met together to consider this matter. 7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “My brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that I should be the one through whom the Gentiles would hear the message of the good news and become believers. 8 And God, who knows the human heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us; 9 and in cleansing their hearts by faith he has made no distinction between them and us.

St Peter makes his point going into the Holy Scriptures OT and James agrees with the point St Peter made as being valid?

It was Peter who preceded over the problems ,Peter mentions how God first looked favorably on the Gentiles and James who is making the last point, “Simon has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written …”

Acts 15:14
So in a sense, he is accepting what Peter has taught. Then he says,

"it is my judgment, therefore "

In other words, James is not settling the issue, but rather, he is turning to how to enforce what Peter has declared.

Notice that Paul and Barnabas, who speak following Peter, don’t make arguments, but rather simply bear witness to what God is doing among the Gentiles, it is to confirm what Peter taught. While Peter is not the last to speak, the “discussion” ends after Peter speaks.

Everyone who follows simply confirms what Peter has taught and proposes how to put it into practice.Remember Peter is not alone, Peter also takes the advice of the Apostolic collage the final Authority is always Peter the Vicar of Christ as Jesus himself has appointed him in Mathew 16:16-18.

All the other verses you have given does not back up what was said within your post above>>about our Blessed Mother dealings with St Paul. Peace

Catholicism is not a “Sola scriptura” religion.about Mother Mary it was by venerable Mary of Agreda who has related the topic, In keeping with the Lord’s command, the Gospel was handed on in two waysrally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”;

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a2.htm

 

[BartholomewB]

Acts 15:14
So in a sense, he is accepting what Peter has taught. Then he says,

"it is my judgment, therefore "

In other words, James is not settling the issue, but rather, he is turning to how to enforce what Peter has declared.

I think you are reading too much into these verses. It is James who has the last word. “It is my judgment, therefore, …” Neither Peter nor anyone else has mentioned the four prohibitions in v. 20 until James gives his ruling.

 

[Spyridon]

Dei Verbum #11

“For holy mother Church, relying on the belief of the Apostles (see John 20:31; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Peter 1:19-20, 3:15-16), holds that the books of both the Old and New Testaments in their entirety, with all their parts, are sacred and canonical because written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and have been handed on as such to the Church herself.”

They have God as their author.

If both God and men wrote the Bible, who is greater; God or man?

God is the Primary Author of the Infallible Scriptures. This is dogmatic Catholic belief. One cannot be a Catholic if they don’t believe the Scriptures are written by God the Holy Spirit and are infallible.

And the reason that probably sounds like a Protestant belief, is because the Protestants took that belief from the Catholic Church. Just like the canon of Scripture, the Trinity, the Hypostatic Union, and just about everything else.

 

[Spyridon]

Also, a small excerpt from #1 of Divino Afflante Spiritu (the source of the quote in Dei Verbum #11)

" In our own time the Vatican Council, with the object of condemning false doctrines regarding inspiration, declared that these same books were to be regarded by the Church as sacred and canonical “not because, having been composed by human industry, they were afterwards approved by her authority, nor merely because they contain revelation without error, but because, having been written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God for their author, and as such were handed down to the Church herself.”[3] When, subsequently, some Catholic writers, in spite of this solemn definition of Catholic doctrine, by which such divine authority is claimed for the “entire books with all their parts” as to secure freedom from any error whatsoever, ventured to restrict the truth of Sacred Scripture solely to matters of faith and morals, and to regard other matters, whether in the domain of physical science or history, as “obiter dicta” and - as they contended - in no wise connected with faith, Our Predecessor of immortal memory, Leo XIII in the Encyclical Letter Providentissimus Deus, published on November 18 in the year 1893, justly and rightly condemned these errors and safe-guarded the studies of the Divine Books by most wise precepts and rules."

 

[po18guy]

Sola scriptura continues to confuse.

James was the first Bishop of Jerusalem. Peter was not. Peter was the head of the Church, and all deferred to him - even at the empty tomb. To this very day, the Archdiocese of Jerusalem is known as the “See of James”

 

[BartholomewB]

Sola scriptura continues to confuse.

Are you saying we should disregard what Luke has written in Acts 15?

James was the first Bishop of Jerusalem. Peter was not. Peter was the head of the Church, and all deferred to him - even at the empty tomb. To this very day, the Archdiocese of Jerusalem is known as the “See of James”

Peter’s argument, supported by Barnabas and Paul, is that God has granted the Holy Spirit to their Gentile coverts and has purified their hearts by faith (vv. 8-9).
.
That is not what James says. He doesn’t simply defer to Peter or to anyone else. He goes further. He bases his judgment on Sacred Scripture: Amos predicted that when the Gentiles join the people of God, they will do so as Gentiles, not as Jews (vv. 16-18).

 

[rose321]

Gen 3:15 >states to honor her as given by God.
One honors, Loves our Blessed Mother Mary, but one does not worship her, that would be breaking the 1st Commandment and would be idolatry, would it not?

Respectfully opinion only, No where with what one has posted, will one find the word >>>>>worship>>>>>>>>>>> but the word>>honor>>One honors Loves our Blessed Mother Mary, but one does>>>>>>>>>>not>>>>>>>>>>>>worship her. One is not speaking about anyone else, but ones personal relationship>>I honor>>> our Blessed Mother. …

Luke 10:16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me, and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”

no one has the authority to change the very words of Jesus

Hear we fully agree>> but seek out all truths, question and examine, test all Spirits as commanded by Jesus.

One does not take the bible literally either>

for the Bible is made up of metaphors, parables, allegories, stories, words and meanings taken from different languages, yes>>
errors can be made in translation and in copying, upon copying upon ;copying, not a simple task either!!
Along with new discoveries, writings found and more knowledge and understanding, historically etc being made clearer
And in studying deeper, Jesus himself came to restore, correct and as his Prophet Jeremiah 8:8 Jesus was fully aware being the author of also.
why Jesus maybe harshly, boldly, calling them even blood vipers,hypocrites, and Jesus identifies them as being>>>you are the children of your father of Lies in Matthew Chapter 23?

Here we fully agree

Who ever hears you Peter hears me!
Jesus did not say>> who ever hears you Paul hears me, did he?

Respectfully toward. Peace

 

[bobperk]

This thread was started by the poster to discuss Pauline authorship of the NT epistles. The current conversations have nothing to do with the original topic and should be started anew in another post.

 

[BartholomewB]

I disagree. Threads can move on from one interesting topic to another long after the original question has been settled. That’s one of the good things about CAF.