Question on Purgatory, Answered!

[LutheranScholar]

Such a “proclamation” displays sophistry and is unworthy of anyone one who claims to follow Christ for it assumes that the Christ both sanctions/doesn’t sanction:
Anything goes for the “Gospel”
Christ’s founding of His Catholic Church with the pope as His supreme authority to teach, sanctify and rule
Sacraments without valid priests
Divorce and remarriage
Abortion
Contraception
Euthanasia
IVF
Women as “priests” and “bishops”
Cloning

What a confused mirage compared with the teaching, sanctifying and ruling of Christ’s Catholic Church.

We believe, teach and confess that the Holy Spirit does the work. Fortunately, we have the Confessions, written in tandem with Holy Writ, to keep us walking the Christian Road. What was applicable in 1580 still applies today, as is amply indicated. Nice list. It has nothing to do with Confessional Lutheranism.

 

[Denise1957]

Jesus took that stain away. I believe that the filthy garment that I wore was rinsed and washed clean at my baptism and that hearing the Word, taking the Sacraments and letting the Holy Spirit transform my heart, God the Father doesn’t record that sin and my name is still safely inscribed in the Book of Life.

But what about those sins that are not forgiven? In John 20:23, Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance. He said to his Apostles:

“Whose sins you shall forgive are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain are retained.”

What happens to those sins that are retained, according to Lutheranism? It’s possible that Martin Luther did not address this, though.

 

[benhur]

Doesn’t this render your salvation a legal technicality and make God unjust?

Salvation can be a legal technicality when you have religion and its works being effectual when they are not. Like, I was baptized confirmed, did altar call, so I must be technically saved. Really ? Maybe.maybe not. You are either born of the spirit or you are not.

Here is what is unjust. Today if you have a lot of money for lawyers and folks that pull some strings you can get out of a lot of trouble. Same abuse with purgatory. The more prayers ,indulgences done on your behalf the quicker you get out, while some poor soul who has fewer intercessors suffers much more, even if it is for the same “crime”.

 

[Hodegetria]

Salvation can be a legal technicality when you have religion and its works being effectual when they are not. Like, I was baptized confirmed, did altar call, so I must be technically saved. Really ? Maybe.maybe not. You are either born of the spirit or you are not.

Here is what is unjust. Today if you have a lot of money for lawyers and folks that pull some strings you can get out of a lot of trouble. Same abuse with purgatory. The more prayers ,indulgences done on your behalf the quicker you get out, while some poor soul who has fewer intercessors suffers much more, even if it is for the same “crime”.

You are equating the misuse of money with prayer, then?

It certainly is unjust for people today to be able to “buy” themselves out of trouble. But what you state makes it seem like praying, particularly intercessory prayer, is somehow **cheating or unjust. **

 

[spedteacherita]

But what about those sins that are not forgiven? In John 20:23, Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance. He said to his Apostles:

“Whose sins you shall forgive are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain are retained.”

What happens to those sins that are retained, according to Lutheranism? It’s possible that Martin Luther did not address this, though.

But it wasn’t Penance that He instituted here - He was talking about repentance. And, as all Christians do, we are taught to repent of the sins and go away and try to do no more. I’m sure Martin Luther had something to say about that but we’ll have to leave that to our apologists on here.

 

[benhur]

You are equating the misuse of money with prayer, then?

It certainly is unjust for people today to be able to “buy” themselves out of trouble. But what you state makes it seem like praying, particularly intercessory prayer, is somehow **cheating or unjust. **

Hi H,
I said nothing of the misuse of money. It is wise to use it to get out of trouble, just not very just or equal opportunity for the rest. For that reason I don’t think others can get folks out of purgatory’s trouble.

 

[Denise1957]

But it wasn’t Penance that He instituted here - He was talking about repentance. And, as all Christians do, we are taught to repent of the sins and go away and try to do no more. I’m sure Martin Luther had something to say about that but we’ll have to leave that to our apologists on here.

Hi Rita,

Penance is what we do (what we’re given in the sacrament of Penance [confession] by the priest) when we repent of our sins. When we are given penance after being absolved for our sins in confession, we do the penance, and hopefully with a contrite heart (repentance) since we are sorry for the sins committed. When we are in confession, we repent of the sins committed. Hope that makes sense. Repentance comes first, and then Penance. Can’t really have one without the other.

However, the priest isn’t required to absolve us if he believes that we are truly not sorry for our sins. Jesus said that “Whose sins you shall retain will be retained.” What happens to those sins that are retained?

I should mention also that I use the old-fashioned traditional terminology when it comes to confession, which is traditionally called the sacrament of Penance. Nowadays it’s called Reconciliation, and that’s okay too.

 

[spedteacherita]

You are equating the misuse of money with prayer, then?

It certainly is unjust for people today to be able to “buy” themselves out of trouble. But what you state makes it seem like praying, particularly intercessory prayer, is somehow **cheating or unjust. **

Doesn’t the church teach something called “the deposit of faith?” Isn’t that equating faith with money?

We must not get caught up into semantics. The CC has their use of words and other denominations have theirs. Some of them are the same and others are not - But maybe then we might understand each other better - that is if we try to understand what your denomination means about a certain concept.

Rita

 

[spedteacherita]

Hi Rita,

Penance is what we do (what we’re given in the sacrament of Penance [confession] by the priest) when we repent of our sins. When we are given penance after being absolved for our sins in confession, we do the penance, and hopefully with a contrite heart (repentance) since we are sorry for the sins committed. When we are in confession, we repent of the sins committed. Hope that makes sense. Repentance comes first, and then Penance. Can’t really have one without the other.

However, the priest isn’t required to absolve us if he believes that we are truly not sorry for our sins. Jesus said that “Whose sins you shall retain will be retained.” What happens to those sins that are retained?

Actually, Denise, I do understand that, and if we had a time for confession I would probably go but I’m not sure where the sacrament of penance comes from. Confession and repentance, yes, but going and doing something to absolve yourself doesn’t make sense to me because I have learned that Jesus already absolved our sins on Calvary.

Thanks, Denise! when I think I’ve started understanding I take 10 steps back.

 

[Denise1957]

Salvation can be a legal technicality when you have religion and its works being effectual when they are not. Like, I was baptized confirmed, did altar call, so I must be technically saved. Really ? Maybe.maybe not. You are either born of the spirit or you are not.

Here is what is unjust. Today if you have a lot of money for lawyers and folks that pull some strings you can get out of a lot of trouble. Same abuse with purgatory. The more prayers ,indulgences done on your behalf the quicker you get out, while some poor soul who has fewer intercessors suffers much more, even if it is for the same “crime”.

It’s true that those who could afford more indulgences could help effect a quicker exist from Purgatory for their loved ones in the days when indulgences were frequently used. But it’s not the only way. We can also have Masses offered for our loved one’s nowadays, but we’re asked to give an offering of usually about $10.00 for a Mass to be offered, which is what a lot of us do. We can also offer prayers and sacrifices for them. It needn’t require money at all. The point being that our prayers, and the prayers of the priest at Masses offered for the dead, or the prayers of the Church can help our loved ones. This belief goes back a very long way - though I’m not sure how far back, exactly.

 

[Denise1957]

Actually, Denise, I do understand that, and if we had a time for confession I would probably go but I’m not sure where the sacrament of penance comes from. Confession and repentance, yes, but going and doing something to absolve yourself doesn’t make sense to me because I have learned that Jesus already absolved our sins on Calvary.

Thanks, Denise! when I think I’ve started understanding I take 10 steps back.

Can you explain what you mean by going and doing something to absolve ourselves? I’m not understanding it at all. Thanks.

I’ll edit this to add that we don’t absolve ourselves. The priest absolves us of our sins (if we are sorry for them) when we go to confession. We are given a form of penance to do, by the priest, after he absolves us of our sins. If we committed only venial sins, he gives a simple form of penance. When I last went to confession a few weeks ago, I was given as a form of Penance, to say these prayers once: The Our Father, the Glory Be, and the Apostles Creed. It took only a few minutes to say them. If a mortal sin or sins are committed, then there’s usually a longer form of Penance given by the priest. However, we don’t even have to do the penance right away. My understanding is that we can do it later in the day, if we need to.

 

[benhur]

Doesn’t the church teach something called “the deposit of faith?” Isn’t that equating faith with money?

We must not get caught up into semantics. The CC has their use of words and other denominations have theirs. Some of them are the same and others are not - But maybe then we might understand each other better - that is if we try to understand what your denomination means about a certain concept.

Rita

Hi Speedster,

I have heard it explained that there is a “grace” bank. Deposits can be made by our meritorious works, prayers etc. Withdrawals can also be be made for someone else’s behalf. God listens to petitions and then applies grace from bank.

 

[Denise1957]

Actually, Denise, I do understand that, and if we had a time for confession I would probably go but I’m not sure where the sacrament of penance comes from. Confession and repentance, yes, but going and doing something to absolve yourself doesn’t make sense to me because I have learned that Jesus already absolved our sins on Calvary.

Thanks, Denise! when I think I’ve started understanding I take 10 steps back.

Maybe the confusion comes from thinking that it’s the penance given by the priest that actually absolves us, and maybe I’ve not been clear about that. Jesus instituted the sacrament of Penance when he told his Apostles that…“Whose sins you shall forgive are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain are retained.”

It might seem odd to call it the Sacrament of Penance when it’s not the penance we’re given by the priest that absolves us. I’m not sure why the Church has historically called it the Sacrament of Penance. Maybe another Catholic here knows more about this.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Hi Speedster,

I have heard it explained that there is a “grace” bank. Deposits can be made by our meritorious works, prayers etc. Withdrawals can also be be made for someone else’s behalf. God listens to petitions and then applies grace from bank.

This is merely an analogy to describe the interconnectedness of every person within the Body of Christ. This same interconnectedness is why we do not stop praying for the deceased nor asking for the prayers of the Saints.

 

[pablope]

Actually, Denise, I do understand that, and if we had a time for confession I would probably go but I’m not sure where the sacrament of penance comes from. Confession and repentance, yes, but going and doing something to absolve yourself doesn’t make sense to me because I have learned that Jesus already absolved our sins on Calvary. Thanks, Denise! when I think I’ve started understanding I take 10 steps back.

Maybe this article from Scott Hahn will help your query:

catholiceducation.org/en/religion-and-philosophy/apologetics/purgatory-holy-fire.html

Okay, “if” – how can we know that this is true and real for us? He says in 12, “So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh,” but look at this, “we are debtors,” we still have a debt to pay; not because Christ hasn’t paid it but because Christ has paid it once and for all and through the Holy Spirit in His mystical body, He applies that. “We are debtors not to the flesh, who live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die. But if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body” – if by the spirit, not by your own flesh, not by your own power. Human nature is weak and incapable of doing anything ultimately pleasing to God. We cannot earn the state of grace by our own works. It’s got to be through the power of the Holy Spirit in union with Christ. “But, if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body,” – if you mortify it, is another translation? - “you will live.”

That’s what penance is all about. We must do penance, John the Baptist said. We must do penance, Jesus Christ said. We must do penance, St. Paul and St. Peter and on and on and on; they all say it. It is not just an attitude or an emotion. It’s not just a decision or an experience. It’s not just a choice at a stadium where we go for what the choir sings. We’ve got to mortify our bodies. We’ve got to do penance every day. Well I’m preaching to myself, too, this morning. I don’t know what you’re hearing, but I know what I’m hearing. Oh I tell you, for all who are led, for all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. “For you do not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship.”

 

[pablope]

He washed them with Jesus’ Blood and declared me innocent.
That was Luther’s dilemma. He kept confessing and he kept confessing. Then he read something out of the Book of Romans. He read that Jesus already did it all. He read that he was saved by grace through faith. Of course we’re meant to live a life of repentance, but repentance is geared toward the teaching of the Law. the Gospel gives us hope and consolation that our sins have been forgiven.

So God, in essence, declared you clean…when in fact, you have not confessed or repented of your sins…so it is became some sort of legal action…it not tied in to an internal change in yourself…you are still sinful inside.

So then, if you are still sinful inside…how can you stand in the glory of God with sin in your soul? In effect, you are deceiving God, are you not?

 

[pablope]

God sees us clean because of Christ’s atoning sacrifice. When the veil was torn we were no longer separated from God because the last sacrifice was made.

God bless!!

Rita

How can you hide our sins from God? How can God be so blind?

 

[Reuben_J]

Maybe the confusion comes from thinking that it’s the penance given by the priest that actually absolves us, and maybe I’ve not been clear about that. Jesus instituted the sacrament of Penance when he told his Apostles that…“Whose sins you shall forgive are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain are retained.”

It might seem odd to call it the Sacrament of Penance when it’s not the penance we’re given by the priest that absolves us. I’m not sure why the Church has historically called it the Sacrament of Penance. Maybe another Catholic here knows more about this.

That’s right. As in the Sacrament of Eucharist, Jesus also instituted the Sacrament of Penance (John 20:23).

The Sacrament of Penance/Reconciliation/Confession is one and the same thing.

Penance is a sacrament of the New Law instituted by Christ in which forgiveness of sins committed after baptism is granted through the priest’s absolution to those who with true sorrow confess their sins and promise to satisfy for the same.

It is called a “sacrament” not simply a function or ceremony, because it is an outward sign instituted by Christ to impart grace to the soul. *As an outward sign it comprises the actions of the penitent in presenting himself to the priest and accusing himself of his sins, and the actions of the priest in pronouncing absolution and imposing satisfaction. *

This whole procedure is usually called, from one of its parts, “confession”, and it is said to take place in the “tribunal of penance”, because it is a judicial process in which the penitent is at once the accuser, the person accused, and the witness, while the priest pronounces judgment and sentence.

The grace conferred is deliverance from the guilt of sin and, in the case of mortal sin, from its eternal punishment; hence also reconciliation with God, justification. Finally, the confession is made not in the secrecy of the penitent’s heart nor to a layman as friend and advocate, nor to a representative of human authority, but to a duly ordained priest with requisite jurisdiction and with the “power of the keys”, i.e., the power to forgive sins which Christ granted to His Church.

The Council of Trent (1551) declares:
As a means of regaining grace and justice, penance was at all times necessary for those who had defiled their souls with any mortal sin. . . . Before the coming of Christ, penance was not a sacrament, nor is it since His coming a sacrament for those who are not baptized. But the Lord then principally instituted the Sacrament of Penance, when, being raised from the dead, he breathed upon His disciples saying: ‘Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained’ (John 20:22-23). By which action so signal and words so clear the consent of all the Fathers has ever understood that the power of forgiving and retaining sins was communicated to the Apostles and to their lawful successors, for the reconciling of the faithful who have fallen after Baptism. (Sess. XIV, c. i)

newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm

Reuben

 

[Denise1957]

That’s right. As in the Sacrament of Eucharist, Jesus also instituted the Sacrament of Penance (John 20:23).

The Sacrament of Penance/Reconciliation/Confession is one and the same thing.

Penance is a sacrament of the New Law instituted by Christ in which forgiveness of sins committed after baptism is granted through the priest’s absolution to those who with true sorrow confess their sins and promise to satisfy for the same.

It is called a “sacrament” not simply a function or ceremony, because it is an outward sign instituted by Christ to impart grace to the soul. *As an outward sign it comprises the actions of the penitent in presenting himself to the priest and accusing himself of his sins, and the actions of the priest in pronouncing absolution and imposing satisfaction. *

This whole procedure is usually called, from one of its parts, “confession”, and it is said to take place in the “tribunal of penance”, because it is a judicial process in which the penitent is at once the accuser, the person accused, and the witness, while the priest pronounces judgment and sentence.

The grace conferred is deliverance from the guilt of sin and, in the case of mortal sin, from its eternal punishment; hence also reconciliation with God, justification. Finally, the confession is made not in the secrecy of the penitent’s heart nor to a layman as friend and advocate, nor to a representative of human authority, but to a duly ordained priest with requisite jurisdiction and with the “power of the keys”, i.e., the power to forgive sins which Christ granted to His Church.

The Council of Trent (1551) declares:
As a means of regaining grace and justice, penance was at all times necessary for those who had defiled their souls with any mortal sin. . . . Before the coming of Christ, penance was not a sacrament, nor is it since His coming a sacrament for those who are not baptized. But the Lord then principally instituted the Sacrament of Penance, when, being raised from the dead, he breathed upon His disciples saying: ‘Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained’ (John 20:22-23). By which action so signal and words so clear the consent of all the Fathers has ever understood that the power of forgiving and retaining sins was communicated to the Apostles and to their lawful successors, for the reconciling of the faithful who have fallen after Baptism. (Sess. XIV, c. i)

newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm

Reuben

Thank you for your excellent explanation, and to Pablope’s explanation, too.

 

[spedteacherita]

How can you hide our sins from God? How can God be so blind?

God sees us thru Christ’s sacrifice! The veil was torn so that man did not have to have someone else to go thru. There was no more need of sacrifice. Jesus is our advocate, a lawyer so to speak, the propitiation of ALL our sins past present and future. But we don’t just leave it there - we live a life for Him and with Him taking all our cares and concerns to Him.This is a mystery to us just as some of the mysteries that Catholics talk about. When I first acknowledged Christ - understood who He was and what He did for me my relationship started with Him. I didn’t say at the time - good, I’m a Christian and God sent Jesus to forgive all my sins past, present and future - I confessed my sins and praised Him for my blessings.

I was a child then and could not be baptized because we had no formal church we attended. When I became an adult I was introduced to a side of Christ that I had not heard before (because we went to a Baptist church before) - I understood that I was saved by the faith that the Holy Spirit brought and planted in me as a child. No one was hollering at me from the pulpit either. So, as a young adult I was baptized and confirmed in the Lutheran church - yet, still, I did not say, “Well, I’m saved, been baptized, God’s forgiven all my sins because of Jesus dying on the cross.” Nope, I just continued through life praying that I was living it according to His will and confessing sins all along.

I love Jesus with all my heart - I never married so I have dedicated my life to learning and building a relationship with God.

Definitely off topic but I wanted you to understand how Jesus’ death and resurrection atones my sins, your sins and everyone else’s sins. Those who don’t know Him or reject Him do not have that assurance, unfortunately.

God bless, Pablope!

Rita