Question on Purgatory, Answered!

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Maybe the confusion comes from thinking that it’s the penance given by the priest that actually absolves us, and maybe I’ve not been clear about that. Jesus instituted the sacrament of Penance when he told his Apostles that…“Whose sins you shall forgive are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain are retained.”

It might seem odd to call it the Sacrament of Penance when it’s not the penance we’re given by the priest that absolves us. I’m not sure why the Church has historically called it the Sacrament of Penance. Maybe another Catholic here knows more about this.
I get it Denise. I worded it wrong. Doing something is the penance but the Priest absolves you of the sin - so you are absolved after you do the Our Father, or Creed, or the Hail Mary’s?"

I’m truly not playing dumb - just want to make sure I get it the right way.

Pablope and Reuben, thanks for your information. I will have to print them out and read them because I have comprehension issues when I have too much to read. I appreciate you taking the time to find information to help me understand.

Blessings, Rita
 
I get it Denise. I worded it wrong. Doing something is the penance but the Priest absolves you of the sin - so you are absolved after you do the Our Father, or Creed, or the Hail Mary’s?"

I’m truly not playing dumb - just want to make sure I get it the right way.

Pablope and Reuben, thanks for your information. I will have to print them out and read them because I have comprehension issues when I have too much to read. I appreciate you taking the time to find information to help me understand.

Blessings, Rita
Hi Rita,

No, we are not absolved after we do the prescribed penance. We are absolved (forgiven) when the priest says the prayer of absolution for us, in the confessional. I always listen for the absolution pronounced by the priest to be sure that I’m absolved of my sins. The priest is given the authority by God to absolve us. But it is actually God who is ultimately forgiving our sins. At least that’s my understanding of how it works.

Not to worry - I didn’t think you were playing dumb at all. I know that you’re trying to understand the Catholic view. 🙂
 
Hi Rita,

No, we are not absolved after we do the prescribed penance. We are absolved (forgiven) when the priest says the prayer of absolution for us, in the confessional. I always listen for the absolution pronounced by the priest to be sure that I’m absolved of my sins. The priest is given the authority by God to absolve us. But it is actually God who is ultimately forgiving our sins. At least that’s my understanding of how it works.

Not to worry - I didn’t think you were playing dumb at all. I know that you’re trying to understand the Catholic view. 🙂
Thanks! 😃

If the priest has absolved you then why are you to do something afterwards? Is it to help you focus on the sins you were absolved from?
 
Thanks! 😃

If the priest has absolved you then why are you to do something afterwards? Is it to help you focus on the sins you were absolved from?
Yes, I think that it might be partly due to needing to focus on the sins for which we’ve been forgiven, in that we want to try to overcome that particular sinful tendency or tendencies. But mostly I think it has to do with making satisfaction or atonement for the sins committed. I don’t really have a better explanation for it myself, and maybe other Catholics here can provide more info. I did find a Vatican document that briefly mentions something about this. If you’d like to have a look at it, just scroll almost halfway down to numbers 1459 and 1460.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c2a4.htm

The last part of number 1460 includes the following quote:

“The satisfaction that we make for our sins, however, is not so much ours as though it were not done through Jesus Christ. We who can do nothing ourselves, as if just by ourselves, can do all things with the cooperation of “him who strengthens us.” Thus man has nothing of which to boast, but all our boasting is in Christ…in whom we make satisfaction by bringing forth “fruits that befit repentance.” These fruits have their efficacy from him, by him they are offered to the Father, and through him they are accepted by the Father.”
 
Thanks! 😃

If the priest has absolved you then why are you to do something afterwards? Is it to help you focus on the sins you were absolved from?
It’s a redirection to a life of holiness by an act of penance and/or meditation on Scriptures and/or prayers. Like disciplining one of your kids, properly - in a way that they can realize that what they did is wrong, how it is wrong, what they can do to avoid doing it again and how to redirect the behavior and focus on the graces and love of God. Of course, done properly. Some Priests are better than others at this, one of my favorite Saints, Padre Pio, was excellent at this. It takes a lifetime to find such a spiritual director as him. That’s the whole reason we are brought to Christ - to help one another through Him in worshiping and serving God. Loving as He loves us. That’s the whole point, not all the bickering and pointing fingers that is rampant and unnecessary… If history has showed anything to us is that this last method has not worked, does not work and will not work, other than to satisfy our own personal egos… There is a time for rebuke but if not done charitably it amounts to nothing, even the strongest faith without love is nothing…

John 15:12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17 This I command you, to love one another.
 
It’s a redirection to a life of holiness by an act of penance and/or meditation on Scriptures and/or prayers. Like disciplining one of your kids, properly - in a way that they can realize that what they did is wrong, how it is wrong, what they can do to avoid doing it again and how to redirect the behavior and focus on the graces and love of God. Of course, done properly. Some Priests are better than others at this, one of my favorite Saints, Padre Pio, was excellent at this. It takes a lifetime to find such a spiritual director as him. That’s the whole reason we are brought to Christ - to help one another through Him in worshiping and serving God. Loving as He loves us. That’s the whole point, not all the bickering and pointing fingers that is rampant and unnecessary… If history has showed anything to us is that this last method has not worked, does not work and will not work, other than to satisfy our own personal egos… There is a time for rebuke but if not done charitably it amounts to nothing, even the strongest faith without love is nothing…

John 15:12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17 This I command you, to love one another.
Thank you! That is very clear to me, now…
 
Thanks! 😃

If the priest has absolved you then why are you to do something afterwards? Is it to help you focus on the sins you were absolved from?
Our penance is our way of expressing our thanks for being forgiven.

From Scott Hahn, who explains it more:catholiceducation.org/en/religion-and-philosophy/apologetics/purgatory-holy-fire.html

The fact is, if we are truly sorry, we will see the need and the propriety for restitution. Not just monetary, physical restitution for broken windows, but psychical, spiritual restitution for broken souls.

The people we’ve hurt, the people we’ve refused to bless, the people we’ve refused to give ourselves to and to give Christ to, the incredible opportunities that we’ve missed because we were lazy and slothful, proud and arrogant. Those memories will burn more than any physical fire when our souls encounter the fiery love of Christ in the Holy Spirit. All those missed opportunities we willfully refused. It’s one thing to miss opportunities for imperfections and faults, another thing to sin deliberately by not giving ourselves. It might not be mortal sin, but we are not only wounding ourselves, but we are wounding the souls who depend upon us.
 
Hi H,
I said nothing of the misuse of money. It is wise to use it to get out of trouble, just not very just or equal opportunity for the rest. For that reason I don’t think others can get folks out of purgatory’s trouble.
But ben, if you have truly understood purgatory in all the discussions presented by catholics…is not reason or cause for trouble…but an acceptance of our sins that need cleansing from our souls…before standing in the glory of God.
 
Hi Speedster,

I have heard it explained that there is a “grace” bank. Deposits can be made by our meritorious works, prayers etc. Withdrawals can also be be made for someone else’s behalf. God listens to petitions and then applies grace from bank.
This concept is itself in the Bible, Benhur…just not your understanding of it.

We Catholics call it “Redemptive Suffering”.

More here (if you care to read and learn more about it): catholiceducation.org/en/religion-and-philosophy/apologetics/purgatory-holy-fire.html

That is why Paul says in Colossians 1:24 something that used to baffle me, Colossians 1:24, “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake.” Masochist? No. In a sense, he is the opportunist. He is the one who sees the ultimate rewards. “I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of His body that is the Church.” …Now does he mean that Christ died a little too quickly? He needed a few more hours? No. It means that Christ’s suffering and death must be reproduced and filled up in the Church and if some are slacking off, that means others must become more like victim-souls, willing to bear a greater burden, willing to shoulder with love, as Galatians 5 speaks about the love, “Love bears one another’s burdens.” We do that just as 1st John 5 speaks about how we can pray for others and get them back on track after their venial sins have been committed. So likewise we can suffer on behalf of others. That’s what fathers and mothers do all the time. And God calls us to do that in the supernatural family, as well, on behalf of our brothers and sisters and our spiritual children, as well. That’s what Paul takes for granted when he makes such an outlandish statement. Outlandish only for those who do not recognize the essential need for suffering.

fisheaters.com/offeringitup.html

Now, is Paul saying that Christ’s sufferings and Sacrifice weren’t enough? Is he “taking away from Christ” by saying that we are to “fill up” those things that are “wanting” in His sufferings? No, of course not. He is saying, though, that we are One Body, that we co-operate with God in profound ways ( I Corinthians 3:9 “For we are God’s coadjutors [co-workers, assistants]…”), and that, in an inscrutable way, our sufferings benefit one another. We actually help Jesus in His redemption of the world by giving to Him our sufferings to build up the Body of Christ.

Think of how we are moved by those who suffer for us. We are touched when we think of what our parents sacrificed to give us, when we think of stories of people who give kidneys to strangers or risk their lives to save someone else. Christ Himself said that “greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends” (John 15:13). Well, just as we are moved by sacrificial love when it is offered to us, the Father is moved by our offered-up sufferings when they are offered along with the Passion and Sacrifice of Jesus. St. Thomas Aquinas wrote (Summa Theologica, III, 49):

Now it is the proper effect of sacrifice to appease God: just as man likewise overlooks an offense committed against him on account of some pleasing act of homage shown him. Hence it is written (1 Kings. 26:19): “If the Lord stir thee up against me, let Him accept of sacrifice.” And in like fashion Christ’s voluntary suffering was such a good act that, because of its being found in human nature, God was appeased for every offense of the human race with regard to those who are made one with the crucified Christ
 
So God, in essence, declared you clean…when in fact, you have not confessed or repented of your sins…so it is became some sort of legal action…it not tied in to an internal change in yourself…you are still sinful inside.

So then, if you are still sinful inside…how can you stand in the glory of God with sin in your soul? In effect, you are deceiving God, are you not?
Of course we’ve confessed and repented of our sins. With the Holy Spirit inside us, how can we be sinful inside? That’s part of sanctification. God is just. He put away all ( without condition or qualification) our sins with Jesus’ sacrifice. The Holy Spirit ( as I’ve said time and time again) initiates our regeneration by the Sacrament of Holy Baptism, usage of the Sacraments and hearing the Word keeps us, by God’s grace, in the faith. Confession and Absolution, both corporate and private, is maintained in the Lutheran Church. God is neither deceived or mocked. He puts our sin away. I don’t know how much more clearly I can put it than that. The Holy Spirit does all the work. He works on our inward sanctification here and now. He will glorify us when we are brought before God. Justification *happened *with Jesus’ completed work on the Cross. Sanctification *is happening *right now. Glorification *will happen hereafter. We can’t earn our way into Heaven. That idea completely does away with the very concept of grace itself. Grace is an undeserved *gift.
 
Of course we’ve confessed and repented of our sins. With the Holy Spirit inside us, how can we be sinful inside? That’s part of sanctification. God is just. He put away all ( without condition or qualification) our sins with Jesus’ sacrifice. The Holy Spirit ( as I’ve said time and time again) initiates our regeneration by the Sacrament of Holy Baptism, usage of the Sacraments and hearing the Word keeps us, by God’s grace, in the faith. Confession and Absolution, both corporate and private, is maintained in the Lutheran Church. God is neither deceived or mocked. He puts our sin away. I don’t know how much more clearly I can put it than that. The Holy Spirit does all the work. He works on our inward sanctification here and now. He will glorify us when we are brought before God. Justification *happened *with Jesus’ completed work on the Cross. Sanctification *is happening *right now. Glorification *will happen hereafter. We can’t earn our way into Heaven. That idea completely does away with the very concept of grace itself. Grace is an undeserved *gift.
The difference between Catholic and Lutheran belief on this issue. And why both arguments seem to pass each other.
Reuben J:
I am trying to understand your post. It is not easy for me because of my unfamiliarity with your church’s doctrine.

If I understand it correctly, I can immediately see the different premise on where we stand on this topic. That may make it easier to understand why we arrive at our respective position.

I would see that there is no middle ground in your belief – either one is forgiven of his sin or one does not repent and therefore is not forgiven.

If that is the case, then it is just being unrealistic. There are thousands of Catholics who walk into that church entrance every Sunday, and many of them do not fall into the categories mentioned above. They are just ordinary kind of Catholic Joes, somewhere in between simply because it is hard to overcome the challenge of life. They sinned, honestly knowing it is wrong but often fall anyway. The sins they are confessing are often repetitive.

So that is life reality. Do they have the Holy Spirit? Yes. Do they receive grace? Yes. Can they avoid those sins? Yes. Will they commit it again? Maybe no or yes, depending on their circumstances. And if they do, they still have to confess it again and repent. It is ongoing.

In the midst of it all, it is obvious to see that somewhere the repentance has not been perfect, not because there is no Holy Spirit, but because of insufficient cooperation by the penitent or not being truly decisive in not wanting to do it again, life factor notwithstanding. Will God condemn him? Yes, if he turns away and never come back; no, if he repents.

I guess that is our differences.

God bless.

Rueben.
 
But ben, if you have truly understood purgatory in all the discussions presented by catholics…is* not reason or cause for trouble*…but an acceptance of our sins that need cleansing from our souls…before standing in the glory of God.
Hi Pablope.

Then why do we pray for those in purgatory for a quicker release,as PR stated ?

On the contrary, I think some aspects of Purgatory don’t understand/accept the reality of the judgement and the futility of making the non negotiable purging negotiable .
 
Hi Pablope.

Then why do we pray for those in purgatory for a quicker release,as PR stated ?

On the contrary, I think some aspects of Purgatory don’t understand/accept the reality of the judgement and the futility of making the non negotiable purging negotiable .
Quicker release? Purgatory is a state outside of time, prayers are not for “quicker release” but to build up another member in the body of Christ, especially the one’s being - at times - with excruciating happiness, shed of material attachment.
 
Quicker release? Purgatory is a state outside of time, prayers are not for “quicker release” but to build up another member in the body of Christ, especially the one’s being - at times - with excruciating happiness, shed of material attachment.
Well,CC actually is not that specific with purgatory doctrine.But for sure the practice and perception is much more varied. Many do pray for those suffering in purgatory, and for a quicker release.
 
Well,CC actually is not that specific with purgatory doctrine.But for sure the practice and perception is much more varied. Many do pray for those suffering in purgatory, and for a quicker release.
That’s been my understanding as well…
 
This concept is itself in the Bible, Benhur…just not your understanding of it.

We Catholics call it “Redemptive Suffering”.

More here (if you care to read and learn more about it): catholiceducation.org/en/religion-and-philosophy/apologetics/purgatory-holy-fire.html

That is why Paul says in Colossians 1:24 something that used to baffle me, Colossians 1:24, “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake.” Masochist? No. In a sense, he is the opportunist. He is the one who sees the ultimate rewards. “I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of His body that is the Church.” …Now does he mean that Christ died a little too quickly? He needed a few more hours? No. It means that Christ’s suffering and death must be reproduced and filled up in the Church and if some are slacking off, that means others must become more like victim-souls, willing to bear a greater burden, willing to shoulder with love, as Galatians 5 speaks about the love, “Love bears one another’s burdens.” We do that just as 1st John 5 speaks about how we can pray for others and get them back on track after their venial sins have been committed. So likewise we can suffer on behalf of others. That’s what fathers and mothers do all the time. And God calls us to do that in the supernatural family, as well, on behalf of our brothers and sisters and our spiritual children, as well. That’s what Paul takes for granted when he makes such an outlandish statement. Outlandish only for those who do not recognize the essential need for suffering.

fisheaters.com/offeringitup.html

Now, is Paul saying that Christ’s sufferings and Sacrifice weren’t enough? Is he “taking away from Christ” by saying that we are to “fill up” those things that are “wanting” in His sufferings? No, of course not. He is saying, though, that we are One Body, that we co-operate with God in profound ways ( I Corinthians 3:9 “For we are God’s coadjutors [co-workers, assistants]…”), and that, in an inscrutable way, our sufferings benefit one another. We actually help Jesus in His redemption of the world by giving to Him our sufferings to build up the Body of Christ.

Think of how we are moved by those who suffer for us. We are touched when we think of what our parents sacrificed to give us, when we think of stories of people who give kidneys to strangers or risk their lives to save someone else. Christ Himself said that “greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends” (John 15:13). Well, just as we are moved by sacrificial love when it is offered to us, the Father is moved by our offered-up sufferings when they are offered along with the Passion and Sacrifice of Jesus. St. Thomas Aquinas wrote (Summa Theologica, III, 49):

Now it is the proper effect of sacrifice to appease God: just as man likewise overlooks an offense committed against him on account of some pleasing act of homage shown him. Hence it is written (1 Kings. 26:19): “If the Lord stir thee up against me, let Him accept of sacrifice.” And in like fashion Christ’s voluntary suffering was such a good act that, because of its being found in human nature, God was appeased for every offense of the human race with regard to those who are made one with the crucified Christ
This deserves much thought , but quickly, sometimes churches take a truth and ritualize it. That is, for sure we suffer for righteousness sake as Christians, as light in a dark world, but not for suffering sake, or as meritorial appeasement. For sure, Christ’s suffering is sufficient enough.

There is no need to suffer as you say we do (and we will not in the next life) but for sure we do now because of the two kingdoms clashing, even within our members, as well as a Body,ministerially.

Not sure Paul was outlandish here but states the obvious. He was a an postle,minister and suffered greatly in that, but as Christ took on suffering with joy for our sake, so did Paul in the joy of the churches he was founding and or pastoring . Like his sufferings were worth it, they bore fruit.

Again our sufferings are not redemptive and apart from Calvary but are as ministers as Christ was also.
 
" Ah gay- ron- tee!" Been thinking about Granny some today, in a kind of Cajun frame of mind. 😛
 
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