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czarlazar
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I think this part would be agreeable, but not the cleansing part. But I am no theologian, just what I understand in my humble knowledge of the matter.
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chimo
Guest
That is because it is mainly a Catholic doctrine. The Orthodox do not talk like a Catholic on Purgatory because for one they do not have such a teaching as expressed in the Catholic Church and two they are unfamiliar to what this teaching implies. The Catholic Church has in my opinion developed this teaching in time not because the Orthodox could not but because the Catholic Church has come to understand certain principals that involves what the Justice or Discipline of God implies to our salvation. The fact that the Orthodox do not have this teaching in its entirety does not mean it is not true. The fact is the Orthodox as a Church probably does a lot more for the Holy Souls in Purgatory even though they have not the teaching on it. Since the Orthodox prays for the departed more than any other Church (in my opinion and from observing both Churches) the Orthodox are helping the Holy Souls anyway despite their lack of teaching on it.
I have a notion that someday the Orthodox will come to accept this teaching in its entirety someday in the future. Since it is not on the lips of the Orthodox now this teaching may be more acceptable once more contacts are made between each Church. I grew up to accept Purgatory because one it does help us to understand what God needs to do with certain souls that have not yet learn to Glorify God in this life. If Purgatory is true which I have come to accept than it is good if we all learn from it. The notion that the Orthodox do not accept it does not mean they will not to accept it later on. Time and more contacts are necessary before we can come to understand each other. The fact is we as the Church can learn from each other. While the Catholic Church is strong in talking about the Justice and Discipline of God she is a bit weak in talking about the Mercy of God. This mercy is best talked about within the Eastern and Orthodox Churches. It seems that the strengths of each Church will help what each Church is lacking in. This does not mean that the Catholic Church is lacking in mercy and the Eastern Churches do not know of God’s Justice. It is that the Catholic Church speaks more eloquently on the Justice and Discipline of God more than us and we as Orthodox speak more on God’s Mercy. It will be to the benefit of the Orthodox and the Catholic to see these strengths which they both have so as to strengthen our own witness of God into the world.
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PRmerger
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Isaiah45_9
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Does it bother you? It shouldn’t.
Do you not sin and time goes in between confessions? I know it does for me.
Do you not grieve that you have sinned? I do.
Do you not pray and talk to the Lord about it? I do.
Should we not be constantly conscious of God’s presence in our daily lives? I forget every single day, but that doesn’t mean I give up.
Where do you draw the line on what we can and cannot do? Is it not really up to God alone the judgment of our souls?
You say it doesn’t have any ground and this represent the greatest example of our Catholic guilt theology. The constant nagging and reminding that you are going to hell unless you hurry up to confession. If you, or anyone for that matter, truly believed this yourself, you would have a tent next to the confessional.
Vanity, it is all vanity.
Who came justified between the Pharisee and the Tax Collector?
We must admit our sins every day yes, but we must also have faith and hope.
What else is PR quoting from the bible? From Peter.
Somehow that post bothered you and it should not have. You probably read too much into it of what was not there.
What do you know of what grief stands or doesn’t stand before the Lord?
Who made you the judge of souls?
Vanity, it’s all vanity.
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czarlazar
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This is interesting that you trying to straddle between East and West, but what you are saying I cannot accept. You mean to tell me that in 2000 years the Holy Fathers of the Holy Church couldnt understand or develop this idea, but the single church of Rome was able to so many years later? If it were true the Church would have expressed it, therefore it is not. And to your idea of doing more for the souls in purgatory, you are mashing two different things together. Praying for the dead does NOT equal purgatory. What branch of the Church do you have membership in?
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PRmerger
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Yes. Well, we are compelled to love God with our entire MINDs, as well as our hearts and souls.
This is where you try to love God with your MIND–but trying to reconcile how you believe your stained soul can stand before the numinous.
And we are also compelled to always have a reason for the hope that is within us (St. Peter says this). When someone asks you: how can you enter heaven if you don’t like my doggie?
…you have to have an apologia.
It’s a sin to just shrug off the question with, “Hey, how should I know?”
And that’s why you’re here, on the CAFs. To get apologia.
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LutheranScholar
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Thank you, Reuben J. It is important to appreciate the differences as well as the similarities in our Churches. I readily admit that when I am in dialogue with other Christians, I try to deliver those things that unite us and when confronted with those things that separate us, I try to be patient ( for a minute or two) and then I fly right off. The Christian message, to me, is a very simple one that doesn’t necessarily goes into a whole lot of doctrinal discourses. Jesus died for our sins. Period. He gives us His Body and Blood. Period. Forgiveness is there for the taking. Believe and be baptized, or, better, may your parents have the foresight to have you baptized first. Period. Original Sin is real. Heaven and Hell are real. I’m personally a literally minded person who tends to talk too much and I’ve never been known to not take things too far when I’m deep into an argument. Your even handed approach and explanations come as a nice glass of cold lemonade to someone standing in the scorching heat of the sun. Thank you, sir.
Now, to address your points from what I hope would be a decent acquittal of the LCMS standpoint. Steido or JonNC can correct me if they wish. The most important thing for me is Holy Communion. It unites me with Christ and incorporates me into His Church in the most intense physical and spiritual way possible. It feeds my soul, strengthens my faith and in His Blood, " shed for the forgiveness of sins," my sins are thereby forgiven. It goes back to sola fide. I believe Jesus meant what He said. Jesus and the Father send forth the Holy Spirit. If I am in sin, as I am constantly, all I’ve got is my hope in the Cross and grace of Christ to cleanse me of said sin. I think of it as Sanctification, the Holy Spirit working in my life to conform me to the image of Christ. If the Holy Spirit is purging me of my sin, perhaps that can be called " Purgatory" as well. I don’t see any warrant for it to be called such. We certainly do believe in the sacramental union of Christ’s literal Body and Blood being really present in, with and under the Bread and Wine. If Reformed Protestants don’t share our views, it’s no wonder these Christians aren’t Lutheran and we aren’t Reformed. Anyway, that’s my view and perhaps it’s shared by some Confessional Lutherans here. If I’m in error, I trust those Lutherans to set me straight.
Now, to address your points from what I hope would be a decent acquittal of the LCMS standpoint. Steido or JonNC can correct me if they wish. The most important thing for me is Holy Communion. It unites me with Christ and incorporates me into His Church in the most intense physical and spiritual way possible. It feeds my soul, strengthens my faith and in His Blood, " shed for the forgiveness of sins," my sins are thereby forgiven. It goes back to sola fide. I believe Jesus meant what He said. Jesus and the Father send forth the Holy Spirit. If I am in sin, as I am constantly, all I’ve got is my hope in the Cross and grace of Christ to cleanse me of said sin. I think of it as Sanctification, the Holy Spirit working in my life to conform me to the image of Christ. If the Holy Spirit is purging me of my sin, perhaps that can be called " Purgatory" as well. I don’t see any warrant for it to be called such. We certainly do believe in the sacramental union of Christ’s literal Body and Blood being really present in, with and under the Bread and Wine. If Reformed Protestants don’t share our views, it’s no wonder these Christians aren’t Lutheran and we aren’t Reformed. Anyway, that’s my view and perhaps it’s shared by some Confessional Lutherans here. If I’m in error, I trust those Lutherans to set me straight.
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czarlazar
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you must have a crystal ballYes. Well, we are compelled to love God with our entire MINDs, as well as our hearts and souls.
This is where you try to love God with your MIND–but trying to reconcile how you believe your stained soul can stand before the numinous.
And we are also compelled to always have a reason for the hope that is within us (St. Peter says this). When someone asks you: how can you enter heaven if you don’t like my doggie?
…you have to have an apologia.
It’s a sin to just shrug off the question with, “Hey, how should I know?”
And that’s why you’re here, on the CAFs. To get apologia.
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Kmon23
Guest
I will have to wholeheartedly agree with czarlazar. Even though I have my own opinions about the place of Catholicism and Orthodoxy in context of the larger world, your posts seem to indicate a far more extreme position that is untenable with Orthodox teaching.
Regarding purgatory, unless there is a very large, large amount of discussion and dialogue between the CC and Orthodox Church, I do not think the current form of teaching on Purgatory is acceptable in any way with Orthodox teaching.
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pablope
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In a thread I recently left, I was challenged about Purgatory and about God and things unclean. I will attempt to offer my own poor answer that may be unacceptable and I might get quote bombed for it ( which is fine. I think the work is unnecessary, but I appreciate the passion people put into it).
ok…let us begin…
Okay. I believe that Christ died for my sins. Personally, as if I were the only person in the world, He came to die for* me*. And* I* put Him to death,* I mocked Him, I flogged Him, I* declared my unwavering loyalty to Him just to deny Him three times.* I* kissed His cheek to identify Him to a blood thirsty mob. I nailed Him to the Cross.
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Abu
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No wonder some are so confused and mistaken. They don’t know or take it upon themselves, with no authority, to reject the Sacred Scriptures which are the Word of God: The doctrine of Purgatory is found in 2 Maccabees 12:46: “It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.”
The only reason that we have the Sacred Scriptures defined as the Word of God is because of the authority of the Catholic Church founded by Christ and mandated by Him to teach, sanctify and rule.
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pablope
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pablope
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How will God declare you clean if you are not really clean? How will you be cleansed of sin?
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spedteacherita
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Kmon23
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I would recommend you give posts that have more… umph? Orthodox wholeheartedly read scripture, 2 Maccabees included. We believe in prayers for the dead.
However we believe prayers for the dead =/= purgatory.
And I don’t think it’s a particularly good argument to say authority of Scripture is from the authority of the Catholic Church solely when in discussion with Orthodox as there was only one church at the time, minus heretical offshoots (Orthodox would say it was the Eastern Orthodox church that with its authority defined the canon of scripture
).Although this is a fine arguments to Protestants of course.
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Abu
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Why would you reject the foundation of Christ’s Church on St Peter – His Catholic Church – and the Word She gave us by authorizing only certain Books as Sacred Scripture, and no more nor no less?
**All four promises to Peter alone: **
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later to the Twelve].
**Sole authority: **"
Strengthen your brethren." (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).
Jesus warned dissenters: “if he refuses to hear even the Church let him be like the heathen and a publican.” (Mt 18:17).
St. Paul says also, “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places (Eph 3:10).” The Church teaches even the angels! This is with the authority of Christ!
This the Sacrament of Confession has been instituted by Christ for the purpose of forgiving sin. As Christ gave us seven sacraments through His Church, no more and no less, He meant us to partake of them as they apply to our lives, and He does that because He gave His Apostles and their successors His personal assurance and command made explicitly clear in Her Bible when He breathed on them the Holy Spirit: “Whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven; whose sins you shall retain they are retained” (Jn 20:21-23) in the Sacrament of Forgiveness (Penance, Reconciliation).
So St John knows perfectly well that the forgiveness of sins by God is normally through His Sacrament instituted by Christ, wherever it is known and accepted.
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Abu
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Such a fallacy helps to explain the errors that flow from that.
The “Bible” was given to the world by the Catholic Church. The New Testament was written by Catholics; the Gospels before the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.
The books that actually are declared the inspired Word of God was decided by Pope Damasus at a Council of Rome in 382, confirmed at the Councils of Hippo, 393, Carthage III 397, Carthage IV in 419 and canonised at the Council of Trent (1545-1563) – 46 books in the Old Testament, 27 books in the New Testament.
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Reuben_J
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Well, thank you, too.
I am glad you take well the spirit of fairness that I tried to project in my post. I think that should be the way to go because if it is absent, the alternative is unfruitful discussion which even can lead to unchristian mudslinging. CAF are quite clear in its rule, perhaps to encourage profitable discussion and to avoid unfruitful bigoted discourse.If I can bring myself to as meaning no harm to you, then I am successful in my objective.
I noted your stance, and it is LCMS, right? If anything, Lutherans are among some of the closest to us in Protestantism where unity is easier to work out compared to others whose theology is more diverse. It is no wonder therefore that our leaders do see this and initiated dialogues, perhaps to have an ongoing attempt to seek out areas where we can reconcile.
As you can see, there is still wide gap in how we see the Sacraments and the applications of scripture, as explained by both of us respectively.
I would not mind to elaborate but if not, it has to be acknowledged that there are still obvious differences in this subject between us.
Again, for simplicity, I would summarize the relevant Catholic position on Sacraments:
Sins (including original sin, it is a pleasure that you mention this) are washed away in the Sacrament of Baptism. If we die immediately after the Baptismal rite, I think we shall go straight to heaven.
Any sins committed after Baptism have to be confessed in the Sacrament of Penance or Reconciliation to achieve satisfaction (unless in special circumstances, personal and corporate confession are not where this is done).
Once in a state of grace, then we receive the Lord’s Body and his Blood in the Sacrament of the Eucharist. Catholics agree with you here insomuch it is the most important of the Sacraments, as some of the Church Fathers would have said. As mentioned earlier on, the Body and Blood are meant for nutrition (spiritual) so that we are sustained in our journey. It signifies, of course, the forgiveness of sin (already forgiven in the earlier Sacraments of Baptism and Penance), and thus now being sanctified, we are to go out having Christ literally in us and to be his witnesses.
Eucharist, can, to some extent, purges us of lesser sins, the Lord’s presence will do that, but the forgiveness of sins is done primarily in the Sacrament of Penance. All these operate together and have to be seen as parts of the larger work of the grace of God.
God bless you.
Reuben.
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Reuben_J
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That’s the thing, Rita. We all believe this.
We confess our sins too. However, Jesus often showed us external signs when he dispensed grace. Like he used spittle or mud, and then he said the word. Or in the Old Testament, like how a mighty General must bath in a river to be heal of his leprosy.
We call these external signs, Sacraments, thanks God, we do not have to bath in the river or having someone smear us with mud or spittle (just kidding you there) but that’s it - Sacraments are outward signs of inward grace.
God bless.
Reuben
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SyroMalankara
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As Eastern Catholics can attest, there are only two dogma of ‘purgatory’ as the Latins call it or ‘theosis’ as the Greeks call it - that is a must believe and that no Orthodox I’ve ever met have denied.
“In the ceaseless struggle of the way of ascent, the way of cooperation with the divine will, created nature is more and more transformed by grace until the final deification which will be fully revealed in the Kingdom of God.”
- There is a place of transition/transformation for souls en-route to Heaven
- prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state
“In the ceaseless struggle of the way of ascent, the way of cooperation with the divine will, created nature is more and more transformed by grace until the final deification which will be fully revealed in the Kingdom of God.”
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