Question on Purgatory, Answered!

[Reuben_J]

Reuben, are we not seated in heavenly places now, and have access to the Throne , per Paul writ ?

Don’t know about you but I am sitting on my computer chair in front of the screen in my humble abode right now. It is heaven to me, I must admit, but it is hardly the God’s Kingdom though He does some work here.

Hard to imagine the judgement seats being outside the kingdom of heaven.

I must say I concur with you there. Maybe in the outer court or throne hall before being taken to where they finally belonged.

Again, He can face sin, and does all the time , just won’t marry it

I must say I concur with you too here and yes, ‘he won’t marry it’. Only married spouse stay in the same house, so … .

Probably not given a room in the house. Yet.

Reuben

 

[Darryl_B]

I have had to correct my daughter on occasion, actually. It wasn’t fun for either of us, but it was necessary to teach her something about boundaries.

I am curious, my friend, why you did not flinch when I said that I still had the $50 stolen from a complete stranger still in my pocket? I still have not repaired the crime. Is that just overlooked? If I move to a different country is that no longer binding me to the injustice?

Jesus Christ came, to undo, to fix, to make right, to repair, everything that had gone wrong with this planet. He fixed the temptation of Adam, He fixed the animosity between brothers Cain and Abel, (Jew and Gentile), He fixed the flood, (baptism (water) now saves us), He fixed the relationship between Adam and Eve (Jesus Christ and the Church born from the side), He even fixed the Tower of Babel and the language problem (at Pentecost). He also unlocked the path to Heaven, (previously guarded by cherubim and a flaming sword, a sword which would pierce).

Making right the wrong is a big part of the cross that Jesus bore, that is the cup that Jesus drank. That is something we must do too. God forgives, but that does not make things “right”. It is not made right until I give that $50 back.

But if I murder thousands and adulter thousands I cannot reparate those whom I hurt so easy, and just merely a transition of my soul from this moral coil does not under any circumstances exempt me from those actions, despite what Luther said.

Hence Purgatory.

 

[PRmerger]

I can’t claim to peer beyond the veil of death.

What you can do, LS, is use what’s been given to us, the Word of God, and your logic and reason, to understand: when we die, unless our soul is lily-white, clean-as-snow, pure and undefiled…

we need to be purged of those stains…

before stepping foot before the Magesty and Splendor of the King.

If you have thought something mean this morning, something unkind, something impure, something uncomely…

then your soul is not fit for heaven.

It’s not fit for hell, either.

It just needs to be purged.

 

[PRmerger]

Then how do your prayers, merits, effect my necessary and inevitable cleansing of a fixed state of being (at the time of death or of judgement) ?

It helps make the purging “faster”.

 

[LutheranScholar]

I am curious, my friend, why you did not flinch when I said that I still had the $50 stolen from a complete stranger still in my pocket? I still have not repaired the crime. Is that just overlooked? If I move to a different country is that no longer binding me to the injustice?

Jesus Christ came, to undo, to fix, to make right, to repair, everything that had gone wrong with this planet. He fixed the temptation of Adam, He fixed the animosity between brothers Cain and Abel, (Jew and Gentile), He fixed the flood, (baptism (water) now saves us), He fixed the relationship between Adam and Eve (Jesus Christ and the Church born from the side), He even fixed the Tower of Babel and the language problem (at Pentecost). He also unlocked the path to Heaven, (previously guarded by cherubim and a flaming sword, a sword which would pierce).

Making right the wrong is a big part of the cross that Jesus bore, that is the cup that Jesus drank. That is something we must do too. God forgives, but that does not make things “right”. It is not made right until I give that $50 back.

But if I murder thousands and adulter thousands I cannot reparate those whom I hurt so easy, and just merely a transition of my soul from this moral coil does not under any circumstances exempt me from those actions, despite what Luther said.

Hence Purgatory.

I tried to answer this once before, but the screen wouldn’t come up properly. I’m not your judge. God judges and acquits who He will. If you’re feeling guilt for theft, I recommend the Sacrament of Confession and Absolution. I maintain that all the work that needed to be done was already done by Jesus and no effort of mine to " make it right" will in any way improve upon the Salvation Jesus won for me on the Cross. My faith, which is a gift of the Holy Spirit, cries out to God and He graciously applies the Sacrifice of Jesus to me. The Holy Spirit moves in me day after day to put away the Old Adam that I might be conformed to the Image of Christ. The Holy Spirit does not move in the life of a murderer, because those regenerated through baptism and hearing the Word proclaimed and partaking in the Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper will be eager to keep the Royal Law contained through Jesus’ injunction to love God above all and to love our neighbors as we do ourselves. My logic and common sense tell me that, not being God, I could never hope to do for myself what Jesus did two thousand years ago for the whole world. I’m an incorporated part of the Body of Christ and that tells me that I’m marked as His.

 

[LutheranScholar]

What you can do, LS, is use what’s been given to us, the Word of God, and your logic and reason, to understand: when we die, unless our soul is lily-white, clean-as-snow, pure and undefiled…

we need to be purged of those stains…

before stepping foot before the Magesty and Splendor of the King.

If you have thought something mean this morning, something unkind, something impure, something uncomely…

then your soul is not fit for heaven.

It’s not fit for hell, either.

It just needs to be purged.

I’m impure simply by being born a Son of Adam. How many times do I have to say it’s not about me, but about Christ? He already paid my debt. He paid it in full. To say " yeah, Jesus did all that, sure, but now you have to do something" kind of implies that what Jesus did wasn’t good enough ( God forbid!) and that the Lord somehow needs help in bringing about salvation. The Holy Spirit works in us to sanctify us before the Throne of the Lamb. It’s all Jesus, from Alpha to Omega, from beginning to end. St. Paul himself says that by our faith we are justified. So we are. God has this. All we have to do is keep still and let the Lord do His work.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m impure simply by being born a Son of Adam. How many times do I have to say it’s not about me, but about Christ? He already paid my debt. He paid it in full. To say " yeah, Jesus did all that, sure, but now you have to do something" kind of implies that what Jesus did wasn’t good enough ( God forbid!) and that the Lord somehow needs help in bringing about salvation. The Holy Spirit works in us to sanctify us before the Throne of the Lamb. It’s all Jesus, from Alpha to Omega, from beginning to end. St. Paul himself says that by our faith we are justified. So we are. God has this. All we have to do is keep still and let the Lord do His work.

The above are nonsequiturs, and false dichotomies, LS.

You believe in purgatory if you believe that sin is impossible to coexist in heaven.

And if you’ve thought something unkind today, there’s that mark on your soul.

You can’t enter heaven with that mark on your soul.

You understand that.

You just aren’t willing to acknowledge that this is what the Catholic teaching is on purgatory–not sure why this is.

What would it mean for you to acknowledge this, save for the fact that you have made some theological sense in your mind!

 

[LutheranScholar]

The above are nonsequiturs, and false dichotomies, LS.

You believe in purgatory if you believe that sin is impossible to coexist in heaven.

And if you’ve thought something unkind today, there’s that mark on your soul.

You can’t enter heaven with that mark on your soul.

You understand that.

You just aren’t willing to acknowledge that this is what the Catholic teaching is on purgatory–not sure why this is.

What would it mean for you to acknowledge this, save for the fact that you have made some theological sense in your mind!

Jesus is generous to cleanse me of all sin by the power of the Holy Spirit. Now I’m starting to repeat myself, though, nor am I interested in getting into my faith that while sin can’t exist in heaven, the Blood of Christ cleanses me from all sin. It cleanses us all. I simply follow the teachings of the Lutheran Church in this matter, just like any faithful layperson would do. What was it CFW Walther said? If it’s Christian, it’s Lutheran and if it’s Lutheran, it’s Christian? We’re not the only Christians out there, but we certainly are Christians with a Biblical faith.

 

[PRmerger]

Jesus is generous to cleanse me of all sin by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Indeed.

Now I’m starting to repeat myself, though, nor am I interested in getting into my faith that while sin can’t exist in heaven, the Blood of Christ cleanses me from all sin.

Indeed. This is what purgatory is. If you sin now, venially, and die, the Blood of Christ must cleanse you. It purges you. In purgatory.

It cleanses us all. I simply follow the teachings of the Lutheran Church in this matter, just like any faithful layperson would do

Right. But if your beliefs cannot stand up to scrutiny, what you are following is blind belief.

And that is something contrary to Christianity in general, Lutheranism specifically, as well as contrary to the Word of God.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Indeed. This is what purgatory is. If you sin now, venially, and die, the Blood of Christ must cleanse you. It purges you. -]In/-] **Through **purgatory.

Fixed

 

[Abu]

LutheranScholar #125
To say " yeah, Jesus did all that, sure, but now you have to do something" kind of implies that what Jesus did wasn’t good enough ( God forbid!) and that the Lord somehow needs help in bringing about salvation.

That idea is incorrect, as our own efforts are essential for cooperation with Christ.

First, Our Lord had to redeem us from the effects of Original Sin which had closed heaven, but was opened by Him for us

Then, for our salvation, what is needed still is what we can and should suffer with Him; have to suffer, and offer supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings as coredeemers (1 Tim 2:5).

It is St. Paul, who wrote: “I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his Body which is the Church.” (Col. 1:24). What is lacking in Christ’s suffering is precisely what only we can do – take up our cross and suffer, repent and ask forgiveness, following the dictates of our conscience. [Frank Sheed, *Christ In Eclipse, p 105-7].
#127

I simply follow the teachings of the Lutheran Church in this matter

That is why there is the great need for understanding and for cooperation with Christ; which is precisely why He founded His Catholic Church, and only She has the fullness of Truth.

 

[LutheranScholar]

Indeed.

Indeed. This is what purgatory is. If you sin now, venially, and die, the Blood of Christ must cleanse you. It purges you. In purgatory.

Right. But if your beliefs cannot stand up to scrutiny, what you are following is blind belief.

And that is something contrary to Christianity in general, Lutheranism specifically, as well as contrary to the Word of God.

Obviously they *can *stand up to scrutiny and they have stood up to scrutiny. Just because *you dismiss them doesn’t make them any less valid. Actually, isn’t it the Catholic Church that insists that her people believe all of the teachings *of the Magisterium?
catholicessentials.net/magisterium.htm Does it encourage questioning, or does it accuse those who follow their consciences of being " cafeteria Catholics" when they make their own informed decisions on what is or is not correctly taught by the Catholic Church? So, while I am accused of " blind belief," what, exactly, are those who follow everything the Catholic Church says because that’s what they’re supposed to do doing?

 

[Denise1957]

We* can’t *avoid sin. As long as we deal with the flesh, the world and the Devil, sin is something we must constantly struggle with. We are simply forgiven of that sin with the substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ on the Cross. We are absolved with Confession and Absolution. We receive forgiveness in the Sacrament. We don’t want to drive the Holy Spirit away ( which is very possible) and when we are terrified by the impossibility of keeping the Law on our own, we are comforted and refreshed by the Gospel. We are not antinomians, we know the Law is still in force, the Moral Law, the Ten Commandments. Only by the activity of the Holy Spirit in our lives may we keep those commandments, to love God and neighbor.

So the Lutheran belief is that one needn’t try to avoid sin?

 

[LutheranScholar]

So the Lutheran belief is that one needn’t try to avoid sin?

Very nice. Wear down the person until, out of frustration he either goes away or concedes to all of your points just to get you off his back, eh? steadfastlutherans.org/2012/04/steadfast-defense-an-apologetic-for-lutheran-apologetics/ The Lutheran belief does call us to daily repentance lcms.org/faqs/doctrine#repentance .

 

[Denise1957]

Very nice. Wear down the person until, out of frustration he either goes away or concedes to all of your points just to get you off his back, eh? steadfastlutherans.org/2012/04/steadfast-defense-an-apologetic-for-lutheran-apologetics/ The Lutheran belief does call us to daily repentance lcms.org/faqs/doctrine#repentance .

I asked you initially about why we should avoid sin, from a Lutheran perspective. But you did not address that at all, from what I can tell in your reply. I guess I should ask it again. Why should we want to avoid sin in the first place? You also stated that we can’t avoid sin. I disagree. We can avoid it, and should, for the most part.

 

[LutheranScholar]

I asked you initially about why we should avoid sin, from a Lutheran perspective. But you did not address that at all, from what I can tell in your reply. I guess I should ask it again. Why should we want to avoid sin in the first place? You also stated that we can’t avoid sin. I disagree. We can avoid it, and should, for the most part.

As long as we are in the flesh, sin cannot be avoided. We are not sinless, only Jesus was sinless. Saying that somehow we can " avoid sin" is a grave error. Everything in our human flesh is predisposed toward sin. The Good news is that this sin has been forgiven. We are redeemed. The Holy Spirit gives us the capability of growing in Christ and putting off the Old Adam. All credit belongs to Jesus Christ for our justification, sanctification and glorification. Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient. If we were to die tonight and appear before the Lord in His Glory, He would say, " enter in, good and faithful servant." The Holy Spirit begins this work in us that will be completed on the day of Christ. I imagine that you would naturally disagree because of the Catholic position on grace initiated by the Holy Spirit, coupled with our cooperation with said Holy Spirit. I say that the Holy Spirit does it all. He gives us the desire to do those things that please God, not so we can get out of trouble, but so we can properly praise god. Faith is manifested in love which is expressed in good works. It all comes down to faith.

 

[Denise1957]

As long as we are in the flesh, sin cannot be avoided. We are not sinless, only Jesus was sinless. Saying that somehow we can " avoid sin" is a grave error. Everything in our human flesh is predisposed toward sin. The Good news is that this sin has been forgiven. We are redeemed. The Holy Spirit gives us the capability of growing in Christ and putting off the Old Adam. All credit belongs to Jesus Christ for our justification, sanctification and glorification. Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient. If we were to die tonight and appear before the Lord in His Glory, He would say, " enter in, good and faithful servant." The Holy Spirit begins this work in us that will be completed on the day of Christ. I imagine that you would naturally disagree because of the Catholic position on grace initiated by the Holy Spirit, coupled with our cooperation with said Holy Spirit. I say that the Holy Spirit does it all. He gives us the desire to do those things that please God, not so we can get out of trouble, but so we can properly praise god. Faith is manifested in love which is expressed in good works. It all comes down to faith.

I’m not really understanding what you’ve written here. Are you saying that we don’t have to try to avoid sin, because we are already forgiven for whatever we do by Christ’s sacrifice?

 

[Denise1957]

As long as we are in the flesh, sin cannot be avoided. We are not sinless, only Jesus was sinless. Saying that somehow we can " avoid sin" is a grave error. Everything in our human flesh is predisposed toward sin. The Good news is that this sin has been forgiven. We are redeemed. The Holy Spirit gives us the capability of growing in Christ and putting off the Old Adam. All credit belongs to Jesus Christ for our justification, sanctification and glorification. Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient. If we were to die tonight and appear before the Lord in His Glory, He would say, " enter in, good and faithful servant." The Holy Spirit begins this work in us that will be completed on the day of Christ. I imagine that you would naturally disagree because of the Catholic position on grace initiated by the Holy Spirit, coupled with our cooperation with said Holy Spirit. I say that the Holy Spirit does it all. He gives us the desire to do those things that please God, not so we can get out of trouble, but so we can properly praise god. Faith is manifested in love which is expressed in good works. It all comes down to faith.

There’s another point which I’d like to address. You mention above that the Holy Spirit does it all, and that he gives us the desire to do the things that please God. But what about free will?

 

[Abu]

LutheranScholar #117
Obviously they can stand up to scrutiny and they have stood up to scrutiny.

You have just been shown that Our Lord requires our cooperation with His Will for us to be saved (post #130), as against your error that nothing else is required from us.

Just because you dismiss them doesn’t make them any less valid. Actually, isn’t it the Catholic Church that insists that her people believe all of the teachings of the Magisterium?

When the Christ founded His Catholic Church He warned “if he refuses to hear even the Church let him be like the heathen and a publican.” (Mt 18:17).

catholicessentials.net/magisterium.htm Does it encourage questioning, or does it accuse those who follow their consciences of being " cafeteria Catholics" when they make their own informed decisions on what is or is not correctly taught by the Catholic Church? So, while I am accused of " blind belief," what, exactly, are those who follow everything the Catholic Church says because that’s what they’re supposed to do doing?

Another error, as following conscience essentially involves making sure that the conscience is correct. Conscience is not a god but a judgment of the practical reason, so there can be no “informed decisions” when the formation of conscience is in error.

The real Catholic is not in “blind belief” precisely because it is the Christ who commands that He be followed through the only Church he founded.

As the Christ taught His Apostles: “I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." (John 14:15-18) “The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in My name, He will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.” (John 14:26) “But when He comes, the Spirit of truth, He will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify Me, because He will take from what is mine and declare it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that He will take from what is mine and declare it to you.” (John 16:13-15)

As Msgr Cormac P Burke (Law and Dissent, 1985) points out, for the real Catholic, there is never a conflict between the authority of the Church and conscience, because belief that Christ has given His Church authority to teach without error is part of his conscience, freely accepted.

The only way we know “Christ’s teachings” with certainty is through His own Church which He established and which gave us the Sacred Scriptures as the Word of God, as Christ wrote nothing. Further dogma “proposes, in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith, truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes, in a definitive way, truths having a necessary connection with these.” (CCC #88).

I notice that LutheranScholar is most unscholarly in avoiding the clear teaching of Christ on His Church.

 

[Reuben_J]

As long as we are in the flesh, sin cannot be avoided.

I can understand what you are trying to say in the rest of your post, but this statement is wrong. We can avoid sin, if we want to. If we are not strong enough to fall into temptation (of sin), we can ask for strength (from the Lord) so that we may not sin. When Adam (and Eve) sinned, they did so out of their free will and thus were punished.

If we can repent for our sin, we can therefore avoid that sin in the first place.

Yes, we sin and being of the flesh, it is easier to sin than trying not to, but that does not mean we have to fall into the way of the flesh. Paul speaks about the fruits of the Holy Spirit. And there were Christians who do not sin. Honestly, the sins that we often committed, those that we confessed, many of them that we could have avoided.

The thing is, we often do not try hard enough, do not repent hard enough. It is easy to say I repent - but what degree of repentance? Is it just lip-service repentance? Often our priests would chastise us, we are confessing the same sin, again and again. So what happened?

Yes, we may repent but we also want to have the best of both worlds. Are we condemned? Maybe yes for that but God is merciful and Jesus had died for us. But would God compromise on sin? No, He does not.

Thus one still need to be purified for our imperfection. But for many Christians who have repented of their sins sincerely, why, of course, they do not need to be further purified.

Reuben.