P
ptisme
Guest
Good for you!!!
- Status
A
Abu
Guest
Incorrect.
In the Anointing of the Sick, the words used are:
“Through this holy anointing, and His most loving mercy, may the Lord assist you by the grace of the Holy Spirit, so that, freed from your sins, He may save you and in His goodness raise you up.” [Fr John A Hardon, S.J., *The Catholic Catechism, Doubleday, 1975, p 544).
T
Techno2000
Guest
, Doubleday, 1975, p 544).
The Catechism of St. Pope Pius X
Q. What are the effects of Extreme Unction?
A. The sacrament of Extreme Unction produces the following effects: (1) It increases
sanctifying grace; (2) It remits venial sins, and also **mortal sins **which the sick person, if
contrite, is unable to confess; (3) It takes away weakness and sloth which remain even
After pardon has been obtained; (4) It gives strength to bear illness patiently, to withstand
temptation and to die holily; (5) It aids in restoring us to health of body if it is for the
good of the soul.
basilica.org/pages/ebooks/Msgr.%20Hagan-The%20Catechism%20of%20Saint%20Pope%20Pius%20X.pdf
The Baltimore Catechism
Q. 970. Will Extreme Unction take away mortal sin if the dying person is no longer able to
confess?
A. Extreme Unction will take away mortal sin if the dying person is no longer able to confess,
provided he has the sorrow for his sins that would be necessary for the worthy reception of the Sacrament of Penance.
boston-catholic-journal.com/baltimore_catechism.pdf
B
benhur
Guest
Then that is not going to purgatory with a mortal sin for one usually confesses at last rites.Furthermore it is not a prayer that takes away the sin, but a “sacrament” (which is more than a prayer . I am talking about taking mortal sin,unconfessed, in purgatory being taken away by prayer or money gift.as is supposedly the case that was done in Macabees
PS thank you though, I see an unconfessed mortal sin might be forgiven with the rite with the assumption the person would verbalize contrition if he or she could .Not sure .Like if Hitler were unconscious and you gave him last rites, not at his bequest, would it still work ?
P
ptisme
Guest
According to Catholic teaching you go the other way if you die w/ an unconfessed Mortal sin on your soul…
B
benhur
Guest
His P.
That is what I thought. Do you see the contradiction then in Maccabees ? It would seem the men committed a mortal sin (stealing and having idol paraphenalia and were stricken dead by God for that, being against Jewish law-maybe even capital punishment), and yet a prayer and money gift can loose them from their sins so that they can resurrect to glory ?
It would seem to be Mac then is more of a history book and not for doctrine. That is, the indulgence for sin was given for loosening of sin for sure by the Jewish leader, but that does not mean it was right. A lot of OT folk did a lot of things but that does not make it doctrine (which the CC thinks it does in this case). Yet the CC rightly does not condone suicide as does Macabees in the next chapter.
Bottom line P’s knock both Mac’s condonings (purgatory and suicide) while CC only one (suicide). Both P and C church discern, pick and choose, though with different results.
D
Denise1957
Guest
You come up with the most bizarre scenarios and questions in order to call into question the Catholic teaching of Purgatory. :whacky:
D
Denise1957
Guest
How far back (in what you have researched) does the Catholic belief in Purgatory go?
P
ptisme
Guest
In Hitler’s case he committed suicide. Technically death would have occurred after last rights so, nothing could have been done for poor Adolph IMHO
P
ptisme
Guest
I’m at work… Will look this over tonight or tomorrow… My employer caught me one too many times with my feet up reading Macabee’s
D
Denise1957
Guest
If Maccabees is just history, and not for doctrine, then why do the Orthodox Jews still pray for their dead?
You see, Catholicism had its start in Judaism. Protestantism did not.
T
Techno2000
Guest
My personal belief is, in the next life, after you die, and had faith, but also some mortal sins unconfessed and are sorry for them (in the next life) Jesus will feel sorry for you(at your judgement) and save you from hell. But you might have to go to a Hellish purgatory.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
In Chapter 12 of Second Maccabees we read Scriptural reference for Purgatory and evidence that the Jews had sacrifices offered for those of their brothers who had lost their lives in battle. That the Jews prayed for the dead shows that they believed in a place where they could be helped (which we now call purgatory) and that the prayers of their living brothers and sisters could help them in that place.
This also is closely related to the Catholic doctrine of the communion of saints.
As for whether our prayers will release the dead from their punishment of their sins or any other specific effect, that we cannot precisely know, God only will be the privy to it. Most importantly, the concept of purgatory is found in the scripture though the word purgatory is not, thus answering those who challenge whether this doctrine is scriptural or not.
When Paul spoke of being saved by fire in 1 Cor 3, as a Jew, he would have known the practice of praying for the dead and why it was so. He thus refined the doctrine of purgatory into what is believed by Catholics then and now.
Reuben
This also is closely related to the Catholic doctrine of the communion of saints.
As for whether our prayers will release the dead from their punishment of their sins or any other specific effect, that we cannot precisely know, God only will be the privy to it. Most importantly, the concept of purgatory is found in the scripture though the word purgatory is not, thus answering those who challenge whether this doctrine is scriptural or not.
When Paul spoke of being saved by fire in 1 Cor 3, as a Jew, he would have known the practice of praying for the dead and why it was so. He thus refined the doctrine of purgatory into what is believed by Catholics then and now.
Reuben
A
Abu
Guest
This was not “done in Maccabees”. Dying with unrepentant mortal sin means you go to hell. The doctrine of Purgatory is found in 2 Maccabees 12:46: “It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.” That means unforgiven venial sins for which one has to undergo Purgatory to get to heaven.
A
Abu
Guest
Christ gave us His Catholic Church and no other, with Her Tradition and Her Magisterium from Christ, and She authorized the Bible as the Word of God which does not contain all of the teaching which Christ authorizes.
Yet, it is so easy to ignore the Master’s examples on how we fail to love God or neighbour in His warnings of sins which defile or befoul for Jesus taught a parable ending with “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”
On Peter asking for an explanation of the parable, Jesus warned: “But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.” (Mt 15: 8 -20). “From within people, from their hearts, come evil thoughts, unchastity(fornication), theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, licentiousness, envy, blasphemy, arrogance, folly. All these evils come from within and they defile.” (Mk 7:21-23). So you can see the gravity with which Jesus portrays such sins.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
I would not say so. It is more of the fact that they, the living, prayed for the dead.
And 2 Mac 12:46 said, “It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins”
Probably the "deadly sin” and “sin which is not deadly” mentioned in I John 5:16-17 is the closest that divides sins into categories - mortal (sin unto death) and venial (sin not unto death) sin.
Edit: The prayer for the dead in 2 Mac 12 of course was together with offering/collection for sacrifice.
B
benhur
Guest
Words have meanings, and it is CC doctrine that tries to cover many scenarios.
You apply her doctrine to a scenario, that Last Rites (Extreme Unction) can take away mortal without confession due to incapacitation.
B
benhur
Guest
You mean before lats rites ?In Hitler’s case he committed suicide. Technically death would have occurred after last rights so, nothing could have been done for poor Adolph IMHO
B
benhur
Guest
been there, done that. be the best employee they’ve got.I’m at work… Will look this over tonight or tomorrow… My employer caught me one too many times with my feet up reading Macabee’s
- Status