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benhur
Guest
Well, if you mention our division do not forget theirs also . Jews believevaried things. They do pray, in remembrance, for the dead.
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benhur
Guest
Well Techno, seems like you’re skating on thin ice per CC doctrine. Now in P doctrine, even old Jewish doctrine, you would fare better (unconfessed sins were covered by a yearly sacrifice in OT), as long as you are not talking about blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
Everybody will be sorry for all their sins in the next life, and all will have to be paid for personally in hell if you are not in the lamb’s Book of Life.
There is no hellish purgatory.
Jesus felt sorry for us (had compassion) at the Incarnation, and Gethsemane, and Calvary for past, present and future sins of the world (us).
Blessings
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benhur
Guest
Hi Reuben,
That a Jewish leader says something makes it doctrinal ? Saul consulted the Endor witch so should we ? of course it was not condoned in scripture, but there many wrong things leaders, judges, priests, generals and kings did that are just given historically without any specific condemnation, yet we are careful not to condone them.
Mac only shows that one person or some of them believed that . Jewish culture also had believers in death sleep and non resurrection etc.Even you say we can not know whether there prayers and "alms’’ helped loose their sins which was the reason given in Mac.
It is a stretch to say Paul had the praying for the dead in purgatory in mind . Scripture also says we are tested now, refined now, as if by fire, a baptism of fire, now. This is all speaking of judgement of a believers works in the building of the "temple’ the church, now and at the judgement seat of Christ for all believers. If that is what you mean by purgatory and that others prayers may not help, cool…
Blessings
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benhur
Guest
Who says that in Mac ? Was he authorized to speak infallibly for all Judaism ?
You put in venial where it is not. He said “sins’” And what sins ? Mac says stealing and stealing and keeping idols, a capital offense. You put two and two together. What sin were they claiming to loose ? What sin ? Mortal ? Venial ?
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Denise1957
Guest
You believe that they only pray as a remembrance only? Are you sure about that? Where did you get that info?
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Reuben_J
Guest
Hi. I can see where you are going with your post. Thanks, because you make your argument quite clear.
You are saying that (1) what Judas Maccabeus did was not necessarily right, and (2) Paul did not teach about praying for the dead. And when he said about being tested by fire, it is about now, not after we die.
I have no argument with you if that is what you think and believe.
What I said earlier was that praying for the dead was indeed practiced by the Jews. If you read the Book of Maccabees, Judas Maccabeus was highly esteemed Jewish leader, probably one can think of people like Gideon of the ancient Hebrews as similar in stature. The book is more known for their steadfast adherence to the laws and their faithfulness and loyalty to their belief. In other words they were martyrs. Perhaps as Protestant, you may not study much of Maccabees but if you should do and consider the books as inspired, you may see them in a different light.
So, at least you acknowledge that praying and offering for the dead was practiced by the ancients Jews though it was wrong to do so. This practice nevertheless, has been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified.
At least the Catholic doctrine of purgatory is not an addition but that had always been believed by Jews and Christians. Only later it was rejected by the Protestants perhaps due to their abuse as seen by Martin Luther.
As for 1 Cor 3, Paul did mention about ‘the Day will disclose it’ v.13 which many commentators would agree to mean to be the day of the Lord or general judgment, which is after death. In v.15, Paul mentioned about being saved by fire, ‘the builder will be saved, but only as through fire’.
God bless.
Reuben
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Denise1957
Guest
Great info, Reuben. I’d like to add a little info about the Jewish prayer called Mourner’s Kaddish. I’ll link to an Jewish website which provides this info:
jewfaq.org/death.htm
Scroll about two-thirds of the way down, and look under the heading, “Kaddish.” In the fourth paragraph down under this heading, this info is given:
“…According to Jewish tradition, the soul must spend some time purifying itself before it can enter the World to Come. The maximum time required for purification is 12 months, for the most evil person.”
This doesn’t exactly line up with the Catholic view of Purgatory, but it does show that there is a Jewish tradition of praying for the souls who are in a place of purification.
jewfaq.org/death.htm
Scroll about two-thirds of the way down, and look under the heading, “Kaddish.” In the fourth paragraph down under this heading, this info is given:
“…According to Jewish tradition, the soul must spend some time purifying itself before it can enter the World to Come. The maximum time required for purification is 12 months, for the most evil person.”
This doesn’t exactly line up with the Catholic view of Purgatory, but it does show that there is a Jewish tradition of praying for the souls who are in a place of purification.
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Denise1957
Guest
The Jewish website that I linked to above was provided by a Catholic website which features an article called, “Biblical and Jewish beliefs about Purgatory.”
About a fourth of the way down the page, there’s a copy of a letter, written by an Orthodox Jew who lives in Israel, and is a friend of the Catholic blog owner. The letter further explains the Jewish belief in a place of purification after death:
blackieschurchmilitant-apocalypsis.blogspot.com/2007/06/biblical-and-jewish-traditional-beliefs.html
About a fourth of the way down the page, there’s a copy of a letter, written by an Orthodox Jew who lives in Israel, and is a friend of the Catholic blog owner. The letter further explains the Jewish belief in a place of purification after death:
blackieschurchmilitant-apocalypsis.blogspot.com/2007/06/biblical-and-jewish-traditional-beliefs.html
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Reuben_J
Guest
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ptisme
Guest
Nope, Last right<death…
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Abu
Guest
As this book is part of the Word of God as declared by Christ through His one and only Catholic Church, the answer is that it is the truth as declared by God.
Going around in circles will get you nowhere.
Purgatory is identified by God through Maccabees and confirmed by Christ through His Church. Dying in unrepentant mortal sin means going to hell. Those dying with only venial sin go through Purgatory.
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benhur
Guest
OK . Apparently they do believe in the 11 month purification as a tradition. I know the Kadesh prayers says nothing about the dead but has praise for God. Kind of like saying the Our Father for one who is deceased, though the prayer says nothing in particular about the departed.
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benhur
Guest
Yes, but I said the "fire’ is not only now but also after we die, at the judgement seat of Christ , where we will be given our reward for Christian service (our works finally judged).
Something like that Reuben, and I appreciate your patience. I would say it is more wrong now than then . At least back then it was out of a lesser light yet light enough to know purity was required, though they did not fully realize that purity would be fulfilled in Christ and Calvary. So at best it was showing a need for "appeasement’’, and there is spiritual merit or maturity in realizing that.
But here is the rub. Paul said when he was a child he did as a child but put those things away when a man. We now have a fuller light, a much better “appeasement”, where we can boldly go into the holiest of places and to be absent from the body is to be with Him.
Further, Jesus had a perfect opportunity to teach on the issue with Lazarus and the rich man. There was no purgatory in this true story. The rich man did not ask for prayers to “speedup” the"purification or be loosed from his sins, even judgement (though he did try to weasel his way out with pretense of warning his brothers about the place).
Some also say the Jews believed in a type of reincarnation, as evidenced by some thinking Jesus was a former prophet. So discernment is needed on what to build upon. .
God bless.
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benhur
Guest
Sorry my misread. My hypothetical CC doctrinal application was for a real bad man being forgiven of real bad and countless mortal sins thru EU though not confessing due to incapacitation. (of course Hitler committed suicide and did not receive EU).
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ptisme
Guest
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=305042
See post #3.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=896230
See post #2
Hope that helps
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ptisme
Guest
This should help re mortal/venial and origin of such:
catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/mortal-and-venial-sin
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ptisme
Guest
OK, So Your question is this: Can a person who has a mortal sin on their soul be saved if: On their death bed they receive last rites while incapacitated (say in a coma), so it isn’t of their own free will?
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ptisme
Guest
Check the CCC out… as I read 1522 I am paused by the word “freely”… What does that mean to you?
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c2a5.htm
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Reuben_J
Guest
Exactly. I agree with you.
Now after the we die part. 1 Cor 3:15 If the work is burned, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.
At the judgment seat of Christ, **every such man shall suffer a loss, when his works are burnt, but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. **
Could, when Paul speak of this that there is some signification? Of a fire which shall not only try, and examine, but also burn, and punish the builders, who notwithstanding shall also, after a time, escape from the fire, and be saved by fire, and in the day of the Lord, that is, after life?
As if the fire purifies after which he will be saved.
Again I agree if you say the purification is fulfilled by Christ at Calvary. The doctrine of purgatory says this. We certainly have no hope without the death of Christ at Calvary.
Yet nothing impure can enter heaven and thus the saved who has not achieved perfection needs to be purified first. The Jews knew this and they did it through prayers and sacrifice. We now do not need sacrifice anymore because the Lamb of God is already slain.
I cannot see how this verse is connected to the topic. He was speaking about people would tie a belt around his waist and went to a place that he did not want to go. Tradition has it that he was executed by the Romans in the later part of his life in Rome.
Nevertheless the appeasement by Jesus’ death is of course for true repentant. We believe that. It is not, however, a blank cheque for salvation. Luke-warmness is certainly not acceptable. We need to have better than mere lip-service repentance. Yet, it seems unjust to put these in hell and at the same time they cannot enter heaven because of impurity that had not been totally repented of.
So without heaven and hell, they have to be somewhere else other than them. Purgatory in a nutshell is such a place or state rather.
I believe in that episode it was about the rich man who was beyond saved, “between you and us a great chasm has been fixed”. Nothing could therefore able to help him, it was already too late. “If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.”
I think it is better to look for the idea of purgatory in Mt. 12:32 “ … but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”
There may be forgiveness in the age to come except for the sin against the Holy Spirit, where there will be none.
Reincarnation? No, Catholics do not believe in that. And you have rightly brought out a passage which says that cannot be done.
Have a blessed day.
Reuben
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