Question on Spanish Mass

[graciew]

I believe there are always allowances for worshipers’ abilities. Elderly have a difficult time kneeling and rising. Some are physically challenged and confined to wheelchairs. I’ve seen Eastern Rite worshipers standing while the rest of us kneel. Our posture in prayer and worship should be uniform but I don’t believe anyone can FORCE you to sit, stand, or kneel if you so feel the Spirit moving you to do so.

Oh sure! I agree with you!

Now I appreciated the explanation why we would be uniform in our posture cause it was not a question of being " tidy" only but of " community" . Made a lot of sense to me .
Thanks for reminding us of our elderly!

 

[BartholomewB]

I remember one of our pastors saying that we were to do the same as a community,not one standing one kneeling and so on. I do not think he could convince everyone…

I’m surprised how often this subject crops up here on CAF. There are evidently very many priests in the United States – though in no other country, as far as I know – who act as though they have the right to impose absolute uniformity in the matter of standing or kneeling, and of receiving on the tongue or in the hand. I think I once read in a comment here that the USCCB recommends this kind of uniformity. If that is true, I suspect that the USCCB may be exceeding its authority, and flouting the rules that govern the matter worldwide.

 

[pianistclare]

As far as "their own psalms…there is the leeway to insert a suitable piece with the same spirit and similar words as the Psalm of the day. It is NOT preferred, and not encouraged, but it is allowed. Our English choir does this often, and I don’t like it. But they are convinced it’s legal (because they have a book that says so) …
The Coro did it for a while, mostly because they had no idea where to procure the psalms for guitar and couldn’t read music anyway. I had the parish purchase the psalm settings for each year in Spanish and have set about teaching them. Problem solved!
Those who feel like things are not properly or adequately done should offer to teach, purchase, and instruct with the proper materials. Perhaps the Priest has no one to work with them.
I’ve found that when you offer correction with genuine love and a desire to be helpful, people respond very well. Sadly, “other cultures” are less then welcome in some parishes, and no one wants to help them.
Catechesis. It’s everything.
BTW, the Gloria is slightly different in Spanish. Their translation was much closer to correct than the English,so it has not changed, although supposedly a new translation that is even better is in the works. It would be a bit different, yes.

 

[ProVobis]

The Gloria isn’t used in every Mass throughout the Liturgical year so I’m not sure about that. Not reading from the Psalms and deleting the Profession of Faith: THAT sounds suspect. Perhaps you need to bring those issues up with the Bishop/ArchBishop of your Diocese.

I’m quite aware of the fact that the Gloria isn’t used all year round, but I know what’s written in the missalette. But wouldn’t that and other related items be an issue with the Spanish bishops’ conference of another country? Clare, you would probably know best.

 

[RyanBlack]

I believe there are always allowances for worshipers’ abilities. Elderly have a difficult time kneeling and rising. Some are physically challenged and confined to wheelchairs. I’ve seen Eastern Rite worshipers standing while the rest of us kneel. Our posture in prayer and worship should be uniform but I don’t believe anyone can FORCE you to sit, stand, or kneel if you so feel the Spirit moving you to do so.

In what context were the Eastern Catholics standing? If you were at an Eastern Divine Liturgy, they were following their own liturgical tradition. If this took place at a Roman Mass, well, in my opinion, they should have knelt along with everyone else. I’m Eastern Catholic, and when I go to a Roman Mass, I kneel at the appropriate times. On the other hand, when Roman Catholics attend Divine Liturgy, I don’t care for it when they insist on kneeling, although I tend to chalk it up to a lack of understanding of Eastern traditions.

 

[808Catholic]

In what context were the Eastern Catholics standing? If you were at an Eastern Divine Liturgy, they were following their own liturgical tradition. If this took place at a Roman Mass, well, in my opinion, they should have knelt along with everyone else. I’m Eastern Catholic, and when I go to a Roman Mass, I kneel at the appropriate times. On the other hand, when Roman Catholics attend Divine Liturgy, I don’t care for it when they insist on kneeling, although I tend to chalk it up to a lack of understanding of Eastern traditions.

It was a Latin Rite Mass. Doesn’t bother me any; I just make a note and thank God that we are all the same and yet unique by His design.

 

[1ke]

. To me, It sounds like liturgical abuse.

What makes you think that female altar servers are a liturgical abuse?

Why do you think that instruments are a liturgical abuse?

IOW, what are you basing your concept of “liturgical abuse” on?

 

[graciew]

I’m surprised how often this subject crops up here on CAF. There are evidently very many priests in the United States – though in no other country, as far as I know – who act as though they have the right to impose absolute uniformity in the matter of standing or kneeling, and of receiving on the tongue or in the hand. I think I once read in a comment here that the USCCB recommends this kind of uniformity. If that is true, I suspect that the USCCB may be exceeding its authority, and flouting the rules that govern the matter worldwide.

I did not mean to go beyond what I said. Our priest abroad noticed that after Communion there were people standing and people kneeling and he was not referring to those persons who cannot do either. All he said was that we had to act as one community and after Communion we had to remain standing until the priest sat down. If you think of it it is also logical. We do not go in row to receive Communion ,itnwould be awkward to skip people kneeling. On the other hand our kneelers are hard and Communion queue long.
It made sense to me that s all.
When a priest speaks not everybody listens. That s universal…
I have.nothing to say but loving words to parishioners ,priests and deacons in my US parish and diocesan ministries. Our bishop was a loving person too.
I am grateful there are Masses. And though there might be mistakes ,they can be solved.
Peace.

 

[graciew]

As far as "their own psalms…there is the leeway to insert a suitable piece with the same spirit and similar words as the Psalm of the day. It is NOT preferred, and not encouraged, but it is allowed. Our English choir does this often, and I don’t like it. But they are convinced it’s legal (because they have a book that says so) …
The Coro did it for a while, mostly because they had no idea where to procure the psalms for guitar and couldn’t read music anyway. I had the parish purchase the psalm settings for each year in Spanish and have set about teaching them. Problem solved!
Those who feel like things are not properly or adequately done should offer to teach, purchase, and instruct with the proper materials. Perhaps the Priest has no one to work with them.
I’ve found that when you offer correction with genuine love and a desire to be helpful, people respond very well. Sadly, “other cultures” are less then welcome in some parishes, and no one wants to help them.
Catechesis. It’s everything.
BTW, the Gloria is slightly different in Spanish. Their translation was much closer to correct than the English,so it has not changed, although supposedly a new translation that is even better is in the works. It would be a bit different, yes.

I totally agree with you , Claire ,that there is always room for volunteering and help. Especially those well formed in Cathequesis.
And what we do not know , we can learn.Most of the ministries if any do not require special skills. Help is always welcome ! ( I guess this is advertising ! )

 

[BartholomewB]

I did not mean to go beyond what I said. Our priest abroad noticed that after Communion there were people standing and people kneeling and he was not referring to those persons who cannot do either. All he said was that we had to act as one community and after Communion we had to remain standing until the priest sat down. If you think of it it is also logical. We do not go in row to receive Communion ,itnwould be awkward to skip people kneeling. On the other hand our kneelers are hard and Communion queue long.
It made sense to me that s all.
When a priest speaks not everybody listens. That s universal…
I have.nothing to say but loving words to parishioners ,priests and deacons in my US parish and diocesan ministries. Our bishop was a loving person too.
I am grateful there are Masses. And though there might be mistakes ,they can be solved.
Peace.

Graciew, thank you for your reply but perhaps I did not make my meaning clear.

“All he said was that we had to act as one community,” you say. Well, of course we are all one community, there’s no doubt about that. But what from what you said earlier, the priest then goes on to assert that he has the right to insist that everyone has to receive Communion standing, not kneeling.

Coincidentally, we have just been discussing this same question on a different thread (link below), and it emerges that your priest is definitely wrong when he says that. Correct Catholic practice is to allow each communicant to receive standing or kneeling, as he or she wishes, and similarly on the tongue or in the hand.

Link:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=961113&page=2

One commenter on that thread, #33, kindly provided a further link to a statement by Cardinal Francis Arinze, at a time when he was still the Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. Arinze is sharply critical of clergy who make the same mistake your priest has been guilty of :

youtube.com/watch?v=Cc0g3UMRtMM

In conclusion, let me just say that I agree wholeheartedly with your last line:
I am grateful there are Masses. And though there might be mistakes ,they can be solved

Regards
Bart

 

[graciew]

Graciew, thank you for your reply but perhaps I did not make my meaning clear.

“All he said was that we had to act as one community,” you say. Well, of course we are all one community, there’s no doubt about that. But what from what you said earlier, the priest then goes on to assert that he has the right to insist that everyone has to receive Communion standing, not kneeling.

Coincidentally, we have just been discussing this same question on a different thread (link below), and it emerges that your priest is definitely wrong when he says that. Correct Catholic practice is to allow each communicant to receive standing or kneeling, as he or she wishes, and similarly on the tongue or in the hand.

Link:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=961113&page=2

One commenter on that thread, #33, kindly provided a further link to a statement by Cardinal Francis Arinze, at a time when he was still the Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. Arinze is sharply critical of clergy who make the same mistake your priest has been guilty of :

youtube.com/watch?v=Cc0g3UMRtMM

In conclusion, let me just say that I agree wholeheartedly with your last line:
I am grateful there are Masses. And though there might be mistakes ,they can be solved

Regards
Bart

Bart, I apologize. I meant after receiving Communion,not when receiving Communion. When you return to your seats and wait til others receive Communion.
Thank you for the links!

 

[BartholomewB]

Bart, I apologize. I meant after receiving Communion,not when receiving Communion. When you return to your seats and wait til others receive Communion.
Thank you for the links!

I’m sorry, Graciew, it wasn’t your fault, it was mine. I misunderstood you!
Anyway, we’re in agreement now. That’s the main thing.

Regards
Bart

 

[thestudentAD]

What’s your definition of liturgical abuse?

Not doing things the proper way or adding something to the liturgy. I don’t always agree with Michael Voris, but a few things struck me: Communion in the hand, the Ordinary Form (I still go to one though), as well as playing contemporary music during mass when it is either: Gregorian chant, or if Ordinary: using organ/piano, and a choir. And the priest says the proper words of the Blessed Sacrament.