question on suffering

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Lilsheep88

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As a Catholic, and as a realist, I have completely accepted the fact that suffering is part of life. It is everybodys destiny to suffer here on Earth, no matter who you are. Whether it is because thats just the way the universe works, or if its a requirement to get to heaven… whatever the reason is…, Ive accepted it. SUFFERING on earth is like breathing oxygen, your not human without it.

With that being said, am I supposed to “embrace suffering”, or can I just accept it and man up and live with the circumstance with a sort of adversial / survivalist outlook towards it?? Like another challenge to be defeated?? Something like an ambush in war… you dont expect it, but you have to fight back for the sake of surviving?? (In my own words, life is like a war and everyday is a challenge, it gives you new **** everyday and if you dont fight back you die). The thing with me is that yes although Ive accepted suffering as a feature of life on Earth, just because Ive accepted it that doesnt Ill embrace it either… Just another challenge thatll make me a (strong) man… I guess what I’m trying to say is that instead of being “humble” in your attitude towards suffering, would it be ok to take it in a non-cowardly way (head-on approach) ?

Like I know alot of saints loved to suffer, but I dont… I dont wish suffering on anyone either… but ive accepted it anyway and if it does happen to me Ill just take it like a man not with humility but something like another obstacle to be pushed out of the way…

Is there anything wrong with this kind of thinking?
 
I had to learn the hard way about this particular subject…but on the other hand, I’m not sure there’s any other way to learn this lesson.

“The worst pains we experience are not those of the suffering itself but of our stubborn resistance to it, our resolute insistence on our independence. To be “crucified with Christ” means what Oswald Chambers calls “breaking the husk” of that independence. “Has that break come?” he asks. All the rest is pious fraud.” ~ Elisabeth Elliot

The way we come to the resurrection is only through the cross. That doesn’t mean that we have to ‘like suffering’. No one likes suffering. What you read about the saints needs to be read with a certain understanding.

As to your question…accepting suffering is part of the road to where you need to be, for sure. But, what’s the next step? Christ said, take up your cross and follow me. So, if you’re truly accepting suffering then you’re taking up your cross, but are you following him? Where did he go? He went to die.

The next step is beginning to die to yourself, to deny yourself. Of a necessity you must be humble to do that. As Peter Kreeft said, Christianity is a philosophy of weakness. We have to be weak so that Jesus can be strong, we must decrease so that he can increase. It is utterly impossible to die to ourselves without relying completely on God’s grace. Jesus showed us the way. As he said, he could have escaped death whenever he wanted, he could have ordered twelve legions of angels to destroy the entire Roman Empire if he wanted to. But, he was weak so that he could fulfill the Father’s will and save us and show us the way to salvation. Why? Because WE can’t order legions of angels to take our pain away. WE can’t stop suffering. So Jesus showed us what we can do to use suffering for our good and the good of others.

I kind of think of it not as embracing suffering but as contemplating suffering. If you contemplate it, you will learn lessons about life, yourself, humility, weakness, sin, evil, and above all about God.
 
I would contact your priest and ask for spiritual guidance, as this is a great opportunity for you - either way you approach suffering.
 
Saints do not love suffering per se; they do not seek pain for pain’s sake. Rather they seek and love pain and suffering because of one peculiar aspect of these:

Pain and suffering are a sword through to the heart.

See a child cry, and your heart melts.

Look on how a mother will fuss and lose sleep over a child that is sick, and how that child is somehow comforted that he or she does not suffer alone.

Which do you think is more touching, more endearing to a lady: to be given a flower bought from the next door flower shop, or to be given a vase of roses that was bought from a flower shop miles away in the middle of a thunderstorm, the man anxiously keeping the vase from toppling over while driving?

Look on the camaraderie of soldiers in foxholes.

And look at our Lord in His Passion, looking at us and being with us during our moments of suffering and pain.

Suffering is so precious because baring one’s soul to be loved and to receive love is so hard to do, and pain and suffering does this with a stab to the heart, cutting through all barriers and excuses and lies.

Lord, when I am hungry, give me someone to feed;
When I am thirsty, send me someone who needs a drink;
When I am cold, send me someone to warm;
When I am sad, send me someone to cheer;
When my cross seems heavy, let me share another’s;
When I feel poor, send me a needy person;
When I have no time, give me someone in need of my minutes.
When I am humiliated, give me the opportunity to praise someone;
When I am discouraged, give me someone to encourage.
When I need understanding, send me someone who needs mine;
When I need to be looked after, send me someone to care for;
When I think only of myself, draw my thoughts to another.
Make us worthy, Lord, to serve those people throughout the world who live and die in poverty and hunger.
Give them through our hands, not only this day, their daily bread, but also by our merciful love, give them your image.

---- Mother Teresa of Calcutta
 
**I like to pop in on psychics and say “I believe you were expecting me”

funny
**
 
Lilsheep88 said:
With that being said, am I supposed to “embrace suffering”, or can I just accept it and man up and live with the circumstance with a sort of adversial / survivalist outlook towards it?? Like another challenge to be defeated?? Something like an ambush in war… you dont expect it, but you have to fight back for the sake of surviving?? (In my own words, life is like a war and everyday is a challenge, it gives you new **** everyday and if you dont fight back you die). The thing with me is that yes although Ive accepted suffering as a feature of life on Earth, just because Ive accepted it that doesnt Ill embrace it either… Just another challenge thatll make me a (strong) man… I guess what I’m trying to say is that instead of being “humble” in your attitude towards suffering, would it be ok to take it in a non-cowardly way (head-on approach) ?
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I am actually starting to “embrace” suffering in that I am becoming thankful for it, but not in that I seek suffering. Yes, life gives me plenty to suffer about, but when I look back at past suffering I can see how it led directly to improvements in my character and in my own abilities to make it through difficult times. It’s like suffering is the obstacle course/exam field/laboratory where we can build our spiritual muscle. I think that anyone who seeks suffering to this end could have the problem of spiritual gluttony. I can see a fuzzy line – I want to get on with life, which I know will involve suffering and problems to bear and solve, so I can become better. Guess it’s the spiritual/emotional/mental equivalent of going to the gym and using the weights. With no resistance we cannot build up strength.
Like I know alot of saints loved to suffer, but I dont… I dont wish suffering on anyone either… but ive accepted it anyway and if it does happen to me Ill just take it like a man not with humility but something like another obstacle to be pushed out of the way…
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Is there anything wrong with this kind of thinking?
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I don’t see anything wrong with your kind of thinking. I think you have a very realistic view of the matter.

As far as why suffering is something I wouldn’t have wanted to live without, I’d be happy to explore that a bit if you wish – and how it is that I can see past sufferings have helped me in the present.

Alan

edit: It just occurred to me that I am drawn to suffering on the part of others, because although I’m not too good with physical suffering, I have suffered a great deal in the spiritual/emotional/mental aspects of life and often I can help relieve that suffering in a fellow sufferer. (So without having experience my own suffering, I wouldn’t understand it well enough to help others with theirs – once I’ve worked through my own especially.) So in that way I am thankful for the crosses I have had to bear because they’ve helped me help others carry their crosses. Notice Jesus says “take up YOUR cross,” not “take up MY cross” … we all have our own personalized crosses.
 
There’s a song by Harry Chapin whose lyrics used to intrigue me 30 years ago but all of a sudden they make sense to me:

The song is called “If you want to feel”

"Oh God they got you gun shy
You know your skin’s as cold as ice
Your eyes are double filtered babe
You’re so afraid to be nice
There’s no way you’re ready
To let your defenses down
Though I won’t come on heavy
There is a lesson that I’ve found

If you try to look
But you don’t touch
Then you won’t touch
But you’ll never feel
And if you don’t feel
You’ll never cry
And if you don’t cry
Then you’ll never heal

There are lessons to life
That the lovers got to learn
There are corners out there
You know they’re waitin’ somewhere
And you’ve got to be prepared to turn
There are callouses that come
That the lovers got to earn
In the years of your youth
You can’t be fire proof
You know you’ve got to get burned

Can’t you feel excitement
Feel it welling up inside
What makes you think emotion
Is something that you hide
Yes I might take advantage
But I’ll be gentle if I do
And I’ll be here in the morning
Still lookin’ at you"

Alan
 
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with your attitude of endurance. But, as Alan pointed out, you have the opporunity to take the next step. You can offer up your suffering as penance for your own sins and as reparation for the sins of others. Making a sacrifice of our suffering enables us to participate, in a small way, in Jesus’ sacrifice for us on the Cross.

Our Lady of Fatima conveyed to Lucia Santos how much the Lord welcomes this kind of sacrifice. An excellent book on this is Fatima for Today: amazon.com/Fatima-Today-Urgent-Marian-Message/dp/1586175238/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1324564765&sr=1-1
 
So long as we live in this fragile body, we can neither be free from sin nor live
without weariness and sorrow. Gladly would we rest from all misery, but in losing
innocence through sin we also lost true blessedness. Therefore, we must have patience
and await the mercy of God until this iniquity passes, until mortality is swallowed up in
life.

Thomas a Kempis
The Imitation of Christ

peace
 
If, indeed, there were anything better or more useful for man’s salvation than
suffering, Christ would have shown it by word and example. But He clearly exhorts the
disciples who follow Him and all who wish to follow Him to carry the cross, saying: “If
any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and
follow Me.”

When, therefore, we have read and searched all that has been written, let this be
the final conclusion – that through much suffering we must enter into the kingdom of
God.

Thomas a Kempis
The Imitation of Christ

peace
 
My parish priest once said I have a strong will. Don’t know how I feel about that. I’m 8 years out from a fight with cancer. At the time, I was strong, hard headed, and unchurched. I was also an infantry soldier, which made it easier to switch gears in a way. I took it head on and tried my best to buck up, but that attitude probably made things worse as I hide stuff from my Dr. so as he wouldn’t stop the chemo. He did end up stopping it a week early due to my reactions to the meds. The rest was God’s grace, if not all of it. I just wasn’t ready and the Lord knew it. I had, or He gave me just enough gumption to survive and not much more. When things happen, we have what it takes, win or in somes’ perception, loose. Death isn’t always a loss. But not learning from it is. Samson
 
My response is not nearly as eloquent as everyone else, but here are my thoughts…

I believe suffering can/ should result in growth as we contemplate the situation at hand.
As far as embracing suffering- few of us are saints and can embrace suffering,
but I don’t believe that’s how all the saints viewed it either…
St. Joan of Arc couldn’t stand to see anyone suffering.
St. Pio’s suffering was a completely different type of suffering…
What we can embrace is the growth gained or anticipate the resulting growth.
Maybe you could look at it as taking lemons and making lemonade…

Also, what you are suffering from makes a difference on how you handle the situation.
What we embrace or don’t. You mentioned tackling the problem head on versus accepting-

A man suffering financially and worrying how to care for his family is different
than a woman dealing with an attack or rape. Both are suffering, both can grow
from the situation, but with financial suffering you can take a head on approach
and actively change the situation. A woman attacked by people might not have
as many proactive options to change the situation at hand, or after the situation
  • nothing can take it back. The suffering has occurred and nothing changes the act,
    BUT she too can fight back in many ways and grow from the aftermath. I doubt she
    would ever embrace being attacked, but in time could embrace the resulting changes
    with her relationship with God as well as help and be a blessing to others.
    I believe you can still fight back and grow as a person, as well as experience a
    personal growth regarding your relationship with God.
We would never think of handling every emergency situation the same way
nor would a doctor treat all illnesses the same way.
I guess what am trying to say is that we don’t embrace or accept all
suffering in the same way as each situation is unique. Some we can fight back
And others we humbly accept. We can always embrace the contemplation and
growth.

If you had cancer, you would have to accept that as fact for the time being,
but that doesn’t mean you wouldn’t tackle it head on and fight by going to see a
doctor and receiving treatment. . .

When people are in traffic jam, some try and think of the best route around/ out of the situation and others
sit patiently accepting the situation and wait. As long as our eyes
and hearts remain on God, either option could be acceptable.

Some suffering is unique, but I believe unique people are the ones dealing
with the issue of embracing those situations.

Most importantly, we remain humble in our spiritual growth and relationship with God.
 
I think it depends on what you are suffering about. Is it something you can do something about…or is it something out of your control?
 
(Post 1 of 2)

Suffering is Gods mercy towards us, it is a means of freeing ourselves from sin, and likewise of expressing our love to God by self-denial, among other things.
and to clarify, neither the saints nor anyone else loved to suffer for the sake of suffering, no one enjoys the feeling of pain, it is not the suffering itself that was of value to the saints, but the sacrifice connected with that suffering, the merits, fruits of it, and how it made them in like-form with Christ by His life and passion…they did not merely want to suffer, and certainly did not enjoy it(otherwise it would not have been such a sacrifice) what they wanted was simply to love God, and they knew that accepting our sufferings in life was a great means of doing that,
it’s also called carrying your cross, and often you may hear of saints who “embraced” the cross, to them it was something precious,
‘The cross is a precious treasure to be kept secret, lest we be robbed of it.’
St. Margaret Mary Alacoque
‘It is not the finest wood that feeds the fire of Divine love, but the wood of the Cross.’
St. Ignatius of Loyola
*‘What? The cross makes us lose our inward peace? Surely it is the cross that bestows it on our hearts. All our miseries come from our not loving it.’ *St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney, the Cure of Ars
*‘Why must we suffer? Because here below pure Love cannot exist without suffering. O Jesus, Jesus, I no longer feel my cross when I think of yours.’ *- St. Bernadette Soubirous

it always moves me to read what the saints have to say on this subject, because there is so much love in their words, and we know they speak the truth, and one of the things we are told by them, is that when we suffer patiently, we suffer less, and save our soul, but when we suffer impatiently, we suffer more and lose our soul,
we don’t just carry our own cross when we accept our sufferings, but we also help Jesus to carry His, and He also helps us to carry ours, we never have to suffer alone,

but what truly makes you stronger? you asked - “I guess what I’m trying to say is that instead of being “humble” in your attitude towards suffering, would it be ok to take it in a non-cowardly way (head-on approach) ?”
to be anything but humble is to be a liar with yourself, humility is the virtue of truth, and it’s opposite vice, pride, is the vice of lies, and in this case, the problem is you don’t see suffering for what it is, and you don’t acknowledge where strength truly comes from, it does not come from yourself, but from God, and true strength is not in doing what seems difficult, but in doing what is right, no matter what the cost, it is being steadfast in the virtues and commandments, no matter how others treat you for it…those who are truly strong are those who have control of their wills, not those who try to control what is outside or beyond them, accepting Gods will in all things takes great strength and courage, not because doing Gods will is a difficult task in itself, but because of all the other things we have to contend with, namely, the world, the flesh, and the devil…

if you approach suffering as you said - “accept it and man up and live with the circumstance with a sort of adversial / survivalist outlook towards it” you will not get very far, at least not spiritually, because this is the means God sends us to become holy, you acknowledge that "SUFFERING on earth is like breathing oxygen, your not human without it. ", but you have yet to acknowledge, or at least you have yet to understand, that God is the one who permits and sends sufferings to us, as a means of many great things, and what good is suffering if you don’t make good use of it? there is so much good you can do with the crosses God sends you, and what is wrong with the outlook on suffering that you are suggesting, is that it is a more selfish approach, since there is so much good you can do with suffering for others and yourself, it is a great waste to just take it “like another obstacle to be pushed out of the way”…it is like pushing Gods gift aside, and you will not become quite as strong by that method, you will only benefit most from suffering, and become strongest by it, by approaching it Gods way, because His way is perfect…and you know the lives of the saints, you can see what strength and courage they had, and you can be sure that there is no other way,
if you already accept your sufferings, then why not take the extra mile? to just push it out of the way is a waste, every cross God sends us is for a reason, no suffering, no matter how small, is useless or meaningless.

(continued in next post)
 
(Post 2 of 2)

perhaps this will explain it better though - gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=12961507
by that you can see more clearly how sufferings come to us from God, and what good they are to us…

if you like to see things as they really are, then humility is your best friend, and there is no greater reality than God, He is truth itself, and we can only truly see the reality in things by doing things His way, which He has revealed to us through His church and the saints,
sin is the great illusion in life, but virtue is what we are destined to, we were meant to be in the image and likeness of God, which refers to the spiritual, and we were made for God alone, to be with Him and love Him for all eternity, that is reality, anything else is a lie, because everything else is temporal, it comes and it goes,
but what we do for the love of God and in chairty lasts forever,
the good we do on earth follows us to heaven, and and the crosses we carry also carry us, the things that are most real in life are usually the things we can not see with our eyes, but they are the only things of true value,

well, it’s something to think about, and i hope you will take the time to think about it, but to help you further, here are some audio sermons that explain this subject much better -
audiosancto.org/sermon/20110515-Penance-Is-Not-About-Suffering-But-About-Saving.html
audiosancto.org/sermon/20110410-Suffering-Stretched-Out-Its-Arms.html
audiosancto.org/sermon/20050710-Loving-God-Why-Does-it-Involve-Suffering.html
audiosancto.org/sermon/20050220-Jesus-Christ-Our-Suffering-Savior.html

and i think these will also help to put things into better perspective -
gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=18087275
gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=18175319

well, i’d be glad to discuss this further if you have anymore questions, but please check out those links i posted, they explain things much better than i can.
alright, i hope this helps, take care.
 
Lilsheep88 said:
As a Catholic, and as a realist, I have completely accepted the fact that suffering is part of life. It is everybodys destiny to suffer here on Earth, no matter who you are. Whether it is because thats just the way the universe works, or if its a requirement to get to heaven… whatever the reason is…, Ive accepted it. SUFFERING on earth is like breathing oxygen, your not human without it.

With that being said, am I supposed to “embrace suffering”, or can I just accept it and man up and live with the circumstance with a sort of adversial / survivalist outlook towards it?? Like another challenge to be defeated?? Something like an ambush in war… you dont expect it, but you have to fight back for the sake of surviving?? (In my own words, life is like a war and everyday is a challenge, it gives you new **** everyday and if you dont fight back you die). The thing with me is that yes although Ive accepted suffering as a feature of life on Earth, just because Ive accepted it that doesnt Ill embrace it either… Just another challenge thatll make me a (strong) man… I guess what I’m trying to say is that instead of being “humble” in your attitude towards suffering, would it be ok to take it in a non-cowardly way (head-on approach) ?

Like I know alot of saints loved to suffer, but I dont… I dont wish suffering on anyone either… but ive accepted it anyway and if it does happen to me Ill just take it like a man not with humility but something like another obstacle to be pushed out of the way…

Is there anything wrong with this kind of thinking?
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Comfort and lack of suffering allowed sinfulness to overwhelm me and pushed me away from God.

Suffering enabled me to break-free from some sinful habits. Suffering drove me closer to God.

When I look back I am grateful for the ‘sufferings’ but I cannot say I love it. Yes, I it has helped me more than any friend or priest and I know it is God’s gift and I am grateful too for it. Yet, I dread to go through it again and strive not to crave for comfort and avoid sin with trembling.
 
Pitcharan said:
Comfort and lack of suffering allowed sinfulness to overwhelm me and pushed me away from God.

Suffering enabled me to break-free from some sinful habits. Suffering drove me closer to God.

When I look back I am grateful for the ‘sufferings’ but I cannot say I love it. Yes, I it has helped me more than any friend or priest and I know it is God’s gift and I am grateful too for it. Yet, I dread to go through it again and strive not to crave for comfort and avoid sin with trembling.
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I have had similar experiences. What I used to call suffering, I can really call “personal development time” if I want to. Since it’s in the past, I can’t change what happened but I change change what I call it and how I talk about it and think about it. How much easier does it make to understand and counsel a friend in pain, if one has been similarly in pain?

Luckily most of my own personal pain has been mental, not physical. Luckily for me, that is, because I’ve always been stronger mentally than physically. When I was young I was very advanced academically but very naive socially and emotionally. I can take a lot of mental and emotional stress now, having processed large amounts of it over the last 10 years and even in the past few months, and all of a sudden it doesn’t seem stressful anymore. Things that used to get me very upset just make me smile now – smile because I am in awe of the Lord and His works. Peace is massaging out the tension and anxiety that the stress put in.

Alan
 
AlanFromWichita said:
I have had similar experiences. What I used to call suffering, I can really call “personal development time” if I want to. Since it’s in the past, I can’t change what happened but I change change what I call it and how I talk about it and think about it. How much easier does it make to understand and counsel a friend in pain, if one has been similarly in pain?
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Thank You.
 
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