Question on the "Ethnic-ness" of Orthodox Churches

[Gumbercules]

Hello, I am considering check out an Orthodox Church soon.

I am worried about the “ethnic-ness” of the churches. There are only three Orthodox Churches within reasonable distance, Greek, Russian, and Coptic, and I am not part of any of those ethnicities, and dont speak said languages.

Would I ever be able to fit in one of these churches, because I am not a member of that ethnicity?

What should I do? Thoughts?

 

[lax16]

Hello, I am considering check out an Orthodox Church soon.

I am worried about the “ethnic-ness” of the churches. There are only three Orthodox Churches within reasonable distance, Greek, Russian, and Coptic, and I am not part of any of those ethnicities, and dont speak said languages.

Would I ever be able to fit in one of these churches, because I am not a member of that ethnicity?

What should I do? Thoughts?

Have you ever been to a Byzantine Church?

 

[AJTheMan]

You should post this in the Easter Catholicism forum. They know quite a bit about Orthodoxy.

Also, E. Orthodox have theological variations with the Catholic Church.

 

[PeaceSerenity]

The fact that they are part of certain diocese is misleading. My church is in the Antiochian Archdiocese (so we should be arabic) but most people are American with other randomly interspersed nationalities. My advice would be to go and see, each church is different on the scale of “ethnic-ness”. Just keep in mind that the Coptics are not exactly the same as most Orthodox, there are significant theological differences.

 

[Jean_1958]

Hi Gumbercules,

I hope you are checking out the Orthodox Churches because you like the way the faith is presented and not because you are disenchanted by the sex abuse scandals in the Catholic Church. The Orthodox Churches also have sex abuse scandals, but the media just doesn’t consider non-Catholic sex abuse as newsworthy. Check here for an example:

pokrov.org/resource.asp?ds=Article&id=772

This is in no way justifying what is currently happening in the Catholic Church, but just to illustrate that all churches deal with this issue

I do not know where you live, but I live in the Chicagoland area which is full of both Catholic and Orthodox churches. My niece is Russian Orthodox and her church gives the Divine Liturgy partly in both English and the traditional Slavonic language. Some Orthodox churches now give the Divine Liturgy entirely in English.

Most English speakers who join an Orthodox Church are like my brother; they marry a member of that ethnic group. There might be some Orthodox churches with outreach to bring in English speakers outside of that ethnic group, but my guess is not many. I asked my niece if her church has English speakers outside of the Russian community that join and she said very few.

I guess the best thing for you to do is to go and attend Divine Liturgy at each of the Orthodox churches in your area and see how you feel with each experience.

Good luck,

Jean

 

[onacloudyday]

some greek church are full of converts and some greek churches are full of greeks. same with russian church. coptic church is a different religion. coptic religion does not accept the 7 councils of the church and they do not accept that Jesus has 2 nature human and divine. coptic nice people but not a orthodox religion.

if you believe in what orthodox church teaches then you will fit in soon. take a while to make friend. maybe culture shock for a little. watch my big fat greek wedding for laught. but maybe you go to greek church and see no greeks. maybe.

not speak greek? if you catholic then until recently all your church spoke latin. not big deal. you learn. Jesus spoke greek and sometime aramaic.

if liturgy in foreign language you will learn quick because it sung. listen to song twice you already sing it. song easy to learn. usual liturgy book have both language and phonetic too.

my thought you should call priest and then go so he know you coming. he help answer questions and meet friend.

Hello, I am considering check out an Orthodox Church soon.

I am worried about the “ethnic-ness” of the churches. There are only three Orthodox Churches within reasonable distance, Greek, Russian, and Coptic, and I am not part of any of those ethnicities, and dont speak said languages.

Would I ever be able to fit in one of these churches, because I am not a member of that ethnicity?

What should I do? Thoughts?

 

[SSTeacher]

Hello, I am considering check out an Orthodox Church soon.

I am worried about the “ethnic-ness” of the churches. There are only three Orthodox Churches within reasonable distance, Greek, Russian, and Coptic, and I am not part of any of those ethnicities, and dont speak said languages.

Would I ever be able to fit in one of these churches, because I am not a member of that ethnicity?

What should I do? Thoughts?

I think you should check out this link and then visit each of the three churches.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[wynd]

Hello, I am considering check out an Orthodox Church soon.

I am worried about the “ethnic-ness” of the churches. There are only three Orthodox Churches within reasonable distance, Greek, Russian, and Coptic, and I am not part of any of those ethnicities, and dont speak said languages.

Would I ever be able to fit in one of these churches, because I am not a member of that ethnicity?

What should I do? Thoughts?

Each parish is different. As with Catholic parishes, some are 100% whitey-white and some are 100% “ethnic.” The only way to find out is to go and see.

 

[onacloudyday]

i agree that hope person not become orthodox for catholic abuse sex scandals.

you compare 1 defrocked priest of orthodox church in one country who make abuse compare to many catholic priests in many countries of the world who make abuse and not defrocked and some even died with catholic church honor of old age. not same. not equal. very different. that you compare is below blow.

some orthodox church filled with converts and some orthodox church have few.

Hi Gumbercules,

I hope you are checking out the Orthodox Churches because you like the way the faith is presented and not because you are disenchanted by the sex abuse scandals in the Catholic Church. The Orthodox Churches also have sex abuse scandals, but the media just doesn’t consider non-Catholic sex abuse as newsworthy. Check here for an example:

pokrov.org/resource.asp?ds=Article&id=772

This is in no way justifying what is currently happening in the Catholic Church, but just to illustrate that all churches deal with this issue

I do not know where you live, but I live in the Chicagoland area which is full of both Catholic and Orthodox churches. My niece is Russian Orthodox and her church gives the Divine Liturgy partly in both English and the traditional Slavonic language. Some Orthodox churches now give the Divine Liturgy entirely in English.

Most English speakers who join an Orthodox Church are like my brother; they marry a member of that ethnic group. There might be some Orthodox churches with outreach to bring in English speakers outside of that ethnic group, but my guess is not many. I asked my niece if her church has English speakers outside of the Russian community that join and she said very few.

I guess the best thing for you to do is to go and attend Divine Liturgy at each of the Orthodox churches in your area and see how you feel with each experience.

Good luck,

Jean

 

[onacloudyday]

very good link. same brochure in my chuch says that information.

I think you should check out this link and then visit each of the three churches.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The ethnic thing is a turn-off for me with Orthodoxy, too. I don’t say that in a racist manner, but because it’s uncomfortable being the only Anglo. In my town there is a Coptic church. I thought of checking it out before, then saw it’s 100% Egyptians and other Middle Easterners. Do I dislike Middle Easterners? Absolutely not. I’m fine with 'em. But to be the only Anglo in a fellowship meeting of mutton, flat bread, and arabic flying around with a filipina wife, both of us the only non-Middle Easterners? Not a big turn on for me.

But ironically the Catholic Church can be just as ethnic. In my neck of the woods, the Portuguese RULE the church along with the Mexicans. Good luck finding much else. It’s a very very very hispanic flavor. I’m more of an Anglo-phile like GKC. I’m a British, Irish, Scottish, UK fan, not big into the hispanic world. So my parish is more ethnic than some Orthodox might be.

I do hate the way the Orthodox churches are broken up ethnically. I miss the distinctively Anglo flavor of my former Anglican Church. I felt at home there. Even my wife, born and raised in the Philippines, rolls her eyes at all the ethnic pandering to even the filipinos!! LOL

 

[dzheremi]

The local OCA and Bulgarian churches in my neck of the woods (northern California) are mostly non-Slavic these days, and even include an increasing number of Eritrean and Ethiopian Orthodox even though these people are not traditionally aligned with the Eastern Orthodox (they are “Oriental”, in communion with the Copts, Armenians, Syriac Orthodox). There are a lot of white American converts, and most of the liturgy from what I’ve seen is not in Old Church Slavonic. Your experience may vary, of course, but whenever I have visited St. Seraphim of Sarov, I have always been very warmly greeted by all, whether Euro-American converts, Arabs, Eritreans, Slavs, etc.

So maybe my experience is atypical, but I don’t think of the Orthodox churches as being “ethnic”, or at least not any more ethnic than the Catholic Church in my town (reflects the Anglo/Hispanic makeup of my town quite well). I figure if there were more Ukrainians here (instead of Russians), we’d also have more pronouncedly “ethnic” Catholic churches, too.

 

[TheosisM]

I have been to a number of Orthodox parishes, and they have been diverse. Then again, these were in diverse cities (DC and NYC). The two OCA cathedrals I went to are pretty diverse, with lots of converts, as well as English liturgies. The Russian Orthodox cathedral in DC also has more of an “ethnic” feel (i.e. Russian, surprise), however there were a number of non-Russians, including an African-American priest (who did the English DL).

So, it really depends on where you live. If you live in or near a city, chances are you’ll have more diverse parishes and English liturgies (especially in the OCA and perhaps the Antiochian Archdiocese). Some will have an English liturgy and a Greek/Slavonic/etc. liturgy on the same day, while others may mix different languages.

Also note that the Coptic Orthodox Church is not part of “The Orthodox Church” but is what is termed “Oriental Orthodox”.

 

[Hesychios]

I am worried about the “ethnic-ness” of the churches…

I can agree here.

I was baptized in an ethnic Roman Catholic parish (Polish, actually), but my folks moved to the 'burbs when I was a wee one. In the suburban parish we always had Irish pastors and a variety of other nationalities for associate priests (this was a long time ago, when such discrimination in assignments was still possible). The older teaching nuns were from Lithuania, I believe, although the younger ones were all American.

After I became an adult, I tried to visit a Polish parish like the one my father belonged to, and the experience did not go well. I must say that I had called ahead, and the priest answered in Polish. I spoke in English and he interrupted me and said “you do realize that this is a POLISH parish, don’t you?”, I said “yes”. He said “you won’t like it”, he did not say ‘probably won’t’, so much for encouragement.

It took a while (a few months) for me to get up the determination but eventually I went anyway, despite the words of that priest. I was very self-conscious in my ‘Americanness’, I didn’t understand a thing (it turns out they started off with an hour of what probably was the Divine Mercy chaplet in Polish) and I felt like everyone was staring at me. No one welcomed me or even looked welcoming, I practically ran out the door at the end of Mass. I am sure my face was all red.

So this kind of experience can happen to anyone, and I sympathize with those who subject themselves to such an experience.

Are there ethnic parishes in in North American Holy Orthodoxy? Yes, indeed. Just like there are ethnic parishes in any church or religion.

There are also the very mixed acculturated parishes that seem so American, with people of diverse backgrounds.

Stepping out of one’s comfort zone is hard. It pays to call ahead.

 

[Gumbercules]

Have you ever been to a Byzantine Church?

Yes, I go to a Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church occasionally, when I can get the chance. It is over an hour away so pretty hard to go on a regular basis.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Yes, I go to a Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church occasionally, when I can get the chance. It is over an hour away so pretty hard to go on a regular basis.

You might look into recieving communion first before attending, there may be some protocol to follow. If one of these Orthodox communities is not in communion with the Pope, you may get rejected from recieving communion? I could never figure out how an Orthodox can refuse the heavenly food to a baptised (Catholic) child of God? When did man gain a monopoly on the Eucharist?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The Orthodox don’t view validity of sacraments the way Catholics do. They look at sacraments more through a St. Cyprian model. Catholics see the sacraments as valid (though licit) when issued through a Catholic priest who has gone rogue, let’s say, to the Anglican Church or Old Catholic Church. His sacrament still are effective, but illicit.

The Orthodox believe that sacraments are only valid when done in communion with Orthodoxy itself, within the Church wherein they KNOW for a fact for certain that the priests are not heterodox or schismatic but 100% adhering to Orthodox truth. The sacraments for a priest who has left Orthodoxy for another communion are outside of the Church proper, outside the truth (as they see it) and therefore suspect, possibly worthless. They usually don’t declare with full certainty that these rogue priests’ sacraments are invalid but they refuse to speculate and ponder whether they are or not. They simply don’t allow communion with someone with whom they view their relationship with the truth, the Orthodox Church, is impaired.

They view the pope and the Roman Church, as they call it, as schismatic since 1054. The Catholics, from their point of view, are in schism and therefore the laity, priests, bishops, pope, everyone cannot be said, with any certainty, to be in a valid sacramental state in any fashion, so therefore communion itself must be withheld. Conversely, we Catholics believe they are the schismatics but we don’t hold to a Cyprian model for valid sacraments. We hold more of an Augustinian view, that one can still convey/confect valid sacraments, just in a state of illictness. So we see them as valid and having sacraments, they don’t see us the same way.

That’s my take and understanding of the situation. Any enlightened Orthodox like Mick or Hesychios (Michael) will correct me if I’m wrong…

You might look into recieving communion first before attending, there may be some protocol to follow. If one of these Orthodox communities is not in communion with the Pope, you may get rejected from recieving communion? I could never figure out how an Orthodox can refuse the heavenly food to a baptised (Catholic) child of God? When did man gain a monopoly on the Eucharist?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The Orthodox don’t view validity of sacraments the way Catholics do. They look at sacraments more through a St. Cyprian model. Catholics see the sacraments as valid (though licit) when issued through a Catholic priest who has gone rogue, let’s say, to the Anglican Church or Old Catholic Church. His sacrament still are effective, but illicit.

The Orthodox believe that sacraments are only valid when done in communion with Orthodoxy itself, within the Church wherein they KNOW for a fact for certain that the priests are not heterodox or schismatic but 100% adhering to Orthodox truth. The sacraments for a priest who has left Orthodoxy for another communion are outside of the Church proper, outside the truth (as they see it) and therefore suspect, possibly worthless. They usually don’t declare with full certainty that these rogue priests’ sacraments are invalid but they refuse to speculate and ponder whether they are or not. They simply don’t allow communion with someone with whom they view their relationship with the truth, the Orthodox Church, is impaired.

They view the pope and the Roman Church, as they call it, as schismatic since 1054. The Catholics, from their point of view, are in schism and therefore the laity, priests, bishops, pope, everyone cannot be said, with any certainty, to be in a valid sacramental state in any fashion, so therefore communion itself must be withheld. Conversely, we Catholics believe they are the schismatics but we don’t hold to a Cyprian model for valid sacraments. We hold more of an Augustinian view, that one can still convey/confect valid sacraments, just in a state of illictness. So we see them as valid and having sacraments, they don’t see us the same way.

That’s my take and understanding of the situation. Any enlightened Orthodox like Mick or Hesychios (Michael) will correct me if I’m wrong…

Hello Gurney, great post. Thanks for the explaination, the pride remains rampant in Orthodoxy, how can man remove what God has made in his sacrament of holy orders?.

I love this spring season when God is cleaning his house, for myself, I could never leave Jesus Christ and his Rock in Peter. I believe I strike a nerve when it is revealed how Orthodox not in communion with the Pope makes a false claim to orthodoxy when they dont practice their liturgy from Orthodoxy in language and culture in the West? as some posters have revealed here. I wonder if the Eastern Orthodox Church’s are aware of this revelation?

 

[PeaceSerenity]

I could never figure out how an Orthodox can refuse the heavenly food to a baptised (Catholic) child of God? When did man gain a monopoly on the Eucharist?

As far as I know, non-Catholics cannot take communion in a Catholic church either…

I believe I strike a nerve when it is revealed how Orthodox not in communion with the Pope makes a false claim to orthodoxy when they dont practice their liturgy from Orthodoxy in language and culture in the West?

I’ve been reading this sentence over and over again, trying to figure out what it’s saying . Maybe you could rephrase that for me, because I really am curious. Please?

 

[Hesychios]

I love this spring season when God is cleaning his house, for myself, I could never leave Jesus Christ and his Rock in Peter. I believe I strike a nerve when it is revealed how Orthodox not in communion with the Pope makes a false claim to orthodoxy when they dont practice their liturgy from Orthodoxy in language and culture in the West? as some posters have revealed here. I wonder if the Eastern Orthodox Church’s are aware of this revelation?

What the heck are you talking about