Question on the "Ethnic-ness" of Orthodox Churches

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After the Great Schism, which I would say was motivated by the excessive pride of the Byzantine Greeks, the various Orthodox churches never did prosper. The Patriarch of Constantinople lives under Turkish Muslim rule to this day, as did the Greek Orthodox for centuries. The Russian Orthodox Church endured the ravages of communism, as did their counterparts in Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria, Macedonia and Serbia. Coincidence?

Of course, all of these churches are indeed restricted to one ethnicity and can in no way make a claim to be the universal church Jesus Christ intended. That is because there is indeed only true faith, the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, and all of our brothers from the east should know that they are welcome to be part of it.
 
I am a learner here…

I equate Orthodoxy, beyond some basic theological issues, as being primarily that of ethnicity. I was studying a little of the various rites of the Latin Church. I was told about the Orthodox Ethiopians who still practice Jewish customs. There I read about them, their Jewish practices, and also how a number of them return to be part of the Latin rite. From there it was interesting how many different ethnic groups broke away from the Catholic Church, only to return so many years later. There are at present, I believe, 22 rites.

It is very interesting to go to Maronite Mass…the priest speaks Aramaic and speaks English with an East coast accent. They also speak Syriliac there. A visiting priest was very happy to see I was amazed to hear they were going to celebrate the Eucharistic Liturgy of St. John the Evangelist, attributed to him. They use bells and do many continual prayers for God’s protection…makes sense with them originating in Lebanon. ‘Everybody wants to have Lebanon’, according to a parishioner.
 
Boy, Hesychios, I don’t know what has gotten you so anti-catholic, but the term Uniate comes from Russia not Catholic, that is probably why you can’t find it in Catholicism? Check your own back yard for this offensive attack …
The word “Uniat” has a Latin origin. It is not a Slavic word, and the Roman Catholic church did not borrow the term from the Russians to employ it in countless formal documents. They used their own Latin for the purposes, and employed it to refer to EC of many nations.

It has become something of a derogatory term, that is true for the present, because many people in eastern Europe do not respect them for one reason or another. Thus most Eastern Catholics themselves have become reluctant to have the term applied to them even though it has been the official designation for them by their own church and appears abundantly in Papal documents.

I am surprised that you don’t know this. But you in your invincibility have the resolve to accuse me of making an offensive attack.

And you, a Catholic, brought the term up in this thread, not me.

However since we are discussing it it should be made clear that I myself was a ‘Uniate’, like a few other Orthodox around here. I am well aware of the origins of these groups, and can give examples if you want, knowing or telling the truth is not anti-Catholic.

I like Eastern Catholics, many (including some priests) are my friends to this day. I also appreciate that I learned more about Holy Orthodoxy through the uniate churches than any other place (until the time I converted). It is a rich source of conversions and vocations to the Orthodox church, so I do not sell them short, they have been OK in my book.
 
I am a learner here…

I equate Orthodoxy, beyond some basic theological issues, as being primarily that of ethnicicfty.
As a north American, I suppose that would your first concern.

Ethnicity was once, in the nineteenth century, a serious problem for the Latin Catholic church in America as well, and it discouraged conversion of the ‘native’ WASP population. This is why the American Catholic bishops embraced ‘Americanism’ (something that was condemned by the Pope), they desired to present a more favorable “American” image to the general mostly non-Catholic American public.

Over time this has become less of an issue, except perhaps in the case of large scale recent immigration of Spanish speaking people, because the earlier populations of Irish, Germans, Poles and Italians have largely assimilated into the north American culture and there is now an “American” ethnicity which dominates in the “American” Catholic church.

Holy Orthodoxy, which began to grow early in the twentieth century, is going through the same process of assimilation, but is perhaps fifty to seventy-five years behind the Roman Catholics. Today one can find most parishes use English and have a mixed ethnicity, despite the name of the synod being from some country abroad.

The case of the Ethiopian church is interesting. It probably should not be called a “uniate” church because it is not Orthodox, but Miaphysite. The story is instructive though.

The Portuguese Jesuits arrived in Ethiopia and required the king to submit to the Pope as a condition for military aid! This happened in 1624AD. By 1633AD the Jesuits (whom had already alienated the population) were forcibly expelled and their books were burned.

The modern Ethiopian Catholic church is a result of later Catholic missions when Europe was carving up Africa and the country was weak. The missions at first targeted the Ethiopean Christians (not, as it were, the Muslims and Pagans) in order to ‘poach’ them away from their native church.

Later, a missioner named de Jacobis got the bright idea that he would have more success in winning away the Ethiopian Christians by imitating the native Ethiopian church in it’s liturgical practices and vestments, so that is what he did. He was opposed by some in the Curia for this but did meet with much greater success. He was later canonized for this successful policy of poaching.

Thus, the modern Ethiopian Catholic church is not the result of the historic native Ethiopian Orthodox seeking union with Rome, but is a new church founded in the nineteenth century by European missioners.

It also happens to be the only case I know of today where an “Eastern Catholic” church actually has two rites (Latin and Coptic), with some Latin Catholic bishops, priests and laity under it’s Metropolitan. Both rites began in Ethiopia as nineteenth century missions, the Latin rite presumably got a big boost when Italy attacked and occupied the country.
 
If we take Uniatism in this classical way of trying to re-establish unity, we as well do not accept it. We were tricked into it. It was not the intention of our bishops at the end of the 16th century. But this was the political situation within the Polish kingdom of that time. And it was also the theological understanding of the Latin Church after the Council of Trent. But this is the past. And we would not like to have Uniatism used anymore as a way of establishing unity. However, we are a fact and our existence cannot be denied…]
Just to illustrate the opinion on Uniatism held by the head of the UGCC.

I do not think Western Rite Orthodoxy is uniatism. It really only targets Anglicans for one thing, whom don’t fit the definition of an apostolic church (at least by Catholic standards). Most Catholics who are interested in a more traditional latin liturgy are just going to head to the EF or the SSPX. Really if Western rite Orthodoxy is uniatism, then perhaps we need to reconsider the Pope’s Anglican ordinariate idea since that sounds oddly similar to what the Antiochene and ROA churches are doing with the western rite.
 
I like diversity. We keep diversity because it is the truth of who we are.

I visited with this owner of a restaurant in Salt Lake City, a really good Greek restaurant. He first asked if I and my family were LDS and I had no idea what he was talking about. He clarified. Then I figured it out and then said we were RC.

He told me he was Greek Orthodox and had attended a Catholic Jesuit high school. One day he got in trouble, came home, and told his dad the priest slapped his hands with a ruler. The dad was real mad. So they went together back to school to meet the priest and to face off for him abusing his son.

When the father found out what the son did, he then turned to the priest and said, ‘DO IT AGAIN!!!’

Talking over the dinner table with such good food, we talked about integrity of faith. He said if you say you are Catholic, then live your faith out and stop compromising with the world. We see it all the time with these catholics in political office and all sorts of scandals and contradiction to being a real life Catholic you can poke, and then when he moves he responds like what the book says a Catholic is.

I asked him what he thought about the Churches being one. I said, wouldn’t it be good if we were more united and were more like a G r e a t B I G Christian brotherhood???’ I just would like all to be able to come to the table together as one like a big family, which the Lord wants.

He then answered back, ’ NOOOOO!!!’
 
So is the point of your story that some groups just plain don’t want ecumenism and reunion or is your story about discipline or a little of both? I ask respectfully…🙂
I like diversity. We keep diversity because it is the truth of who we are.

I visited with this owner of a restaurant in Salt Lake City, a really good Greek restaurant. He first asked if I and my family were LDS and I had no idea what he was talking about. He clarified. Then I figured it out and then said we were RC.

He told me he was Greek Orthodox and had attended a Catholic Jesuit high school. One day he got in trouble, came home, and told his dad the priest slapped his hands with a ruler. The dad was real mad. So they went together back to school to meet the priest and to face off for him abusing his son.

When the father found out what the son did, he then turned to the priest and said, ‘DO IT AGAIN!!!’

Talking over the dinner table with such good food, we talked about integrity of faith. He said if you say you are Catholic, then live your faith out and stop compromising with the world. We see it all the time with these catholics in political office and all sorts of scandals and contradiction to being a real life Catholic you can poke, and then when he moves he responds like what the book says a Catholic is.

I asked him what he thought about the Churches being one. I said, wouldn’t it be good if we were more united and were more like a G r e a t B I G Christian brotherhood???’ I just would like all to be able to come to the table together as one like a big family, which the Lord wants.

He then answered back, ’ NOOOOO!!!’
 
The orthodox want to stay separate, and that they have strong ethnic roots to the point of being separate. Roman Catholicism is universal and we don’t have the beautiful liturgies unless you go to a Latin Mass with Gregorian chant.

I have heard them complain of our Masses and that we change too much. I agree with them on these points.
 
The word “Uniat” has a Latin origin. It is not a Slavic word, and the Roman Catholic church did not borrow the term from the Russians to employ it in countless formal documents. They used their own Latin for the purposes, and employed it to refer to EC of many nations.

Lets not complicate the matter to a word here; Uniate comes from the Russian word Uniya. From the Latin vulgate comes unio where we get the english Union.
It has become something of a derogatory term, that is true for the present, because many people in eastern Europe do not respect them for one reason or another. Thus most Eastern Catholics themselves have become reluctant to have the term applied to them even though it has been the official designation for them by their own church
 
I do not think Western Rite Orthodoxy is uniatism. It really only targets Anglicans for one thing, whom don’t fit the definition of an apostolic church (at least by Catholic standards). Most Catholics who are interested in a more traditional latin liturgy are just going to head to the EF or the SSPX. Really if Western rite Orthodoxy is uniatism, then perhaps we need to reconsider the Pope’s Anglican ordinariate idea since that sounds oddly similar to what the Antiochene and ROA churches are doing with the western rite.
That is the most intellectual commentary I have ever read which agrees with both opposing views. Formosus, you should be a politician:thumbsup:
 
These Orthodox from the West do not have their own Apostolic liturgy, they have adopted an Anglican liturgy foreign to their Antioch successor to the Apostles. Thus you have a Uniate Church.
Christ is Risen!

They do not claim, however, to be Anglicans in communion with Antioch.

John.
 
prodromos;6556831:
Gabriel of 12;6555325:
These Orthodox from the West do not have their own Apostolic liturgy, they have adopted an Anglican liturgy foreign to their Antioch successor to the Apostles. Thus you have a Uniate Church.
Christ is Risen!

They do not claim, however, to be Anglicans in communion with Antioch.

John.
My point exactly thank you:)
What is your point? :confused:

They are not Anglicans, they are Orthodox following an Orthodox liturgy. Their beliefs are entirely Orthodox and they make no claims to the contrary.

They do not pretend to be Roman Catholics, and they do not pretend to be Anglicans (they left that and any other forms of Protestantism behind) “in communion with X,Y or Z” , there is no fake out or pretense going on here. There is no insidious attempt to split or undermine the Catholic Papal church, it isn’t even an active policy to establish these communities, and never has been.

They do not have bishops in their liturgical tradition and so there is no intention of setting up a parallel/rival hierarchy to either the Anglican or the Roman Catholic church. It happened out of necessity due to the clamoring of Protestants to be accepted into Apostolic/Biblical Christianity and their willingness to subscribe to Orthodox theology and follow an Orthodox bishop. Good for them!
 
The orthodox want to stay separate, and that they have strong ethnic roots to the point of being separate. Roman Catholicism is universal and we don’t have the beautiful liturgies unless you go to a Latin Mass with Gregorian chant.

I have heard them complain of our Masses and that we change too much. I agree with them on these points.
By the way, I think that is the topic of the thread.

I’m not so sure Jesus would agree with it. But, the Old Testament God certainly did play ethnic faves.
 
The orthodox want to stay separate, and that they have strong ethnic roots to the point of being separate.
Actually what you are describing is considered a sin by Orthodox called phyletism. I will not claim that all Orthodox are perfect Christians, and I am sure one will find some examples of this complaint, but the church itself condemns the attitude.

Realistically this attitude can be said to apply to many Eastern Catholics as well. I know quite a few personally from my long association with them and that could be an apt description of why they do not want to be either Orthodox or Latin Catholics, they stick with the church of their people (I think this applies particularly to some EC priests I know or have met, they are very knowledgeable about religious matters and would probably either convert to Orthodox or become Latins except for the ‘clan’ loyalty of their families being in their particular EC community for many generations).

I also know many Poles ( I am Polish by descent) who identify Polishness with Roman Catholicism. They are Catholics because Poles are supposed to be Catholics, and their ancestors were Catholic, opposed by the Protestant Germans and the Orthodox Russians for hundreds of years. Even if non-practicing they would not think of themselves as anything but.

Actually, that factor was one reason my own conversion was delayed inordinately.
 
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