Question on the Holy Eucharist

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OK, so I am in a discussion with someone that does not believe in the real presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist. Here is what they have written me:

'The Passover meal, which is the meal Jesus and His disciples were celebrating, was instituted as a memorial meal. The purpose of the meal was to remind the Jews of God’s provision in the past and His promised provisions in the future. In the middle of this memorial meal, Jesus takes the loaf of bread and the wine and changes the meaning of the memorial symbols. It is important to note that Jesus continues to use the words of a memorial when He states “Do this in remembrance of me.”

In God’s inspired, perfect word, we are taught that Jesus only died once.

“Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.” Hebrews 9:25-28

If Jesus only died once, He cannot be sacrificed over and over again weekly.

In God’s inspired, perfect word, we are taught if we have to continually sacrifice Christ, we are not saved.

The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins” Hebrews 10:1-3

In God’s inspired, perfect word, we are taught that once Christ offered His sacrifice on the cross He sat down at the right hand of God and was finished.

“And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.” Hebrews 10:10-14

I would encourage you to read Hebrews 9:11-10:18 in its entirety.’

OK, so help me respond to this. I already have given reference to John 6 where Jesus stated numerous times that His flesh was real food & His blood was real drink. That we must eat His flesh & drink His blood because that is what He told us to do. I realize I will probably not change this person’s mind, but would like to defend my faith.
Thanks!
 
This is from the Baltimore Catechism: "362. Is there any difference between the sacrifice of the cross and the Sacrifice of the Mass?
The manner in which the sacrifice is offered is different. On the cross Christ physically shed His blood and was physically slain, while in the Mass there is no physical shedding of blood nor physical death, because Christ can die no more; on the cross Christ gained merit and satisfied for us, while in the Mass He applies to us the merits and satisfaction of His death on the cross.

For we know that Christ, having risen from the dead, dies now no more, death shall no longer have dominion over him. (Romans 6:9)"

So we obviously believe that it is not Christ being sacrificed over and over again, but instead, and not to get all mystical and all, but it is, there is only one sacrifice. The same Eucharist we receive at mass every week is the same Eucharist the Apostles received at the Last Supper. That is why it is the Last Supper- not because it was the last one Jesus ate (because it wasn’t) but it is the last supper we ever will eat. It transcends time. It is the wedding of Heaven to Earth.

And I really don’t like your friends attitude that Jesus is up in Heaven not doing anything, just waiting until His enemies are made His footstools. I feel sad for this person not to believe that Jesus is an active part of his life.
 
The real presence of Christ in the Eucharist was not doubted stubbornly until the Reformation.

You can “spin” scripture a lot of different ways, but our Church is “apostolic” indicating the unchanging beliefs we share originating in the early Church.

Someone will invariably follow with a post explaining John 6 and its application here. The first “protestants” were there doubting what Jesus said about eating His flesh and drinking His blood.

Revelation consists of two parts, scripture and Tradition; Church teaching rests on scripture, Tradition, and the magisterial authority of the Church invested in it by Jesus (mt 28).
 
This took me a long time to understand, and I didn’t really get it until late in the RCIA process. I had the same objections your acquaintance does, based on the same verses.

CCC 1323:

“At the Last Supper, on the night he was betrayed, our Savior instituted the Eucharistic sacrifice of his Body and Blood. This he did in order to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross throughout the ages until he should come again, and so to entrust to his beloved Spouse, the Church, a memorial of his death and resurrection: a sacrament of love, a sign of unity, a bond of charity, a Paschal banquet ‘in which Christ is consumed, the mind is filled with grace, and a pledge of future glory is given to us.’”

Your friend (or whoever) doesn’t understand what we believe, and he’s set up a straw man (re-sacrificing Christ) and shot it down. But we don’t re-sacrifice Christ. Instead, Christ’s sacrifice once and for all is made present to us. It’s more of time-travel-esque type thing. 🙂

The Eucharist is a memorial meal, but it’s not just a memorial meal. It’s also all those other things: a sign of unity, a bond of charity, and most importantly, it’s Christ Himself (as He said in John 6).
 
This took me a long time to understand, and I didn’t really get it until late in the RCIA process. I had the same objections your acquaintance does, based on the same verses.

Your friend (or whoever) doesn’t understand what we believe, and he’s set up a straw man (re-sacrificing Christ) and shot it down. But we don’t re-sacrifice Christ. Instead, Christ’s sacrifice once and for all is made present to us. It’s more of time-travel-esque type thing. 🙂

🙂 Theologian Scott Hahn explains about the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass from the Book of Revelation. The consecration of bread and wine to Body and Blood of Jesus Christ is the “re- presentation” of the sacrifice at Calvary. Jesus Christ is God. He is eternal outside of time and space. Our life here on our present is restricted by time and space.

God’s covenant from Adam and Eve to before Jesus Christ was limited to a cetain group or race of people in the Old Covenant. Our Jewish brothers and sisters today are living proof of God’s chosen people. Chosen for the reason, a Messiah from their race to liberate mankind from the bondage of sin just like liberation from bondage from Gentiles of their past.

The Old Covenant sacrifices of animals for the forgiveness of sins culminates to the perfect sacrifice. New Covenant, God incarnate ( in the flesh) of His innocence from sin sacrificies Himself, dies, rises from the dead (Resurrection). No Resurrection, no Christianity. Over 500 witnesses saw this man within a month’s period appear and ate meals with a few of them.

The flesh real food and blood real drink. God created all that exist. So God can change presences contrary to nature? Jesus spoke many of issues man could not understand with limited capacity of intelligence. God knew we could not hack up a human being like a side of beef and eat off him like a cannibal. God had his own special ways beyond our comprehension of the Last Supper and the command “do this in remembrance of me”.

Jesus told His Apostles, “I will not leave you orphans”, I will sed you a “counselor”. After Jesus’ Ascension, the Apostles experienced the Holy Spirit (Pentecost). God in the Holy Spirit Guides theChurch in faith and morals the "world " will never understand.

I attend Adoration (Perpetual Adoration 24hrs) at my parish chapel a few times a week for about 30 min. I once told my pastor, this Eucharist is a “Leap of faith” it is beyond human scope of reasoning. I have seen God at work throught the power of the Eucharist.

Fr. Benedict Groeschel and Mr. James Monti has a book out " In the Presence of our Lord: The History, Theology and Psychology of Eucharistic Devotion." ISBN 9780879739201

God Bless.
 
Not only does your friend misunderstand what we believe about the Sacrifice of the Mass, he misunderstands the Passover meal. The celebration of the Passover was/is precisely about making each and every member of the community a part of the Exodus.
 
Not only does your friend misunderstand what we believe about the Sacrifice of the Mass, he misunderstands the Passover meal. The celebration of the Passover was/is precisely about making each and every member of the community a part of the Exodus.
👍
 
Not only does your friend misunderstand what we believe about the Sacrifice of the Mass, he misunderstands the Passover meal. The celebration of the Passover was/is precisely about making each and every member of the community a part of the Exodus.
Yes, the Passover meal was a re-presentation of the Exodus, at which God ratified his covenant by leading his people out of Egypt. It wasn’t merely a “memorial” in the way we now think of that word. It was intended to make the event present to everyone–even those who lived in a afferent time and place.

Likewise, the Eucharistic meal is a re-presentation of the sacrifice of the cross as well as of the last supper. (Re-presentation means “making present.”) Jesus died only once–for all. The Eucharist makes those events present to us in every time and place in which it is celebrated. It is not a different sacrifice, done over and over again. It is the one same sacrifice, gathering us in to the events of our salvation.
 
Thanks! That helps me out. I really do not mind a good debate. I believe he feels he can keep throwing scripture at me & get me to change my mind & think like him. NOT going to happen. 🙂
 
'The Passover meal, which is the meal Jesus and His disciples were celebrating, was instituted as a memorial meal.
Having eaten passover meals with Jews, I can tell you, as others have said, the passover meal is not a memorial. It is a sacramental joining of Jews into the passover.

Furthermore, the Communion is not a hollow shadow of the passover meal. Instead, the passover meal is an imperfect precursor to Communion. The symbolic act is NOT the communion, but rather the jewish passover.
In the middle of this memorial meal, Jesus takes the loaf of bread and the wine and changes the meaning of the memorial symbols. It is important to note that Jesus continues to use the words of a memorial when He states “Do this in remembrance of me.”
“Do this in rememberance of me” is not in the passover meal. This isn’t continuance of “memorial language”, it is likewise a departure from the Jewish Passover.

Furthermore, “Do this in rememberence of me” doesn’t invalidate the statement “This is my Body and my Blood.” This isn’t Jesus saying communion is just a symbol. It’s Him telling us that when we eat what is His Body and Blood, that we should also remember Him.
In God’s inspired, perfect word, we are taught that Jesus only died once.
……Hebrews 9:25-28

If Jesus only died once, He cannot be sacrificed over and over again weekly.

In God’s inspired, perfect word, we are taught if we have to continually sacrifice Christ, we are not saved.
It’s a good thing that Catholicism does not “re-sacrifice the Christ”, instead allowing all Catholics to share Christ’s final passover. I won’t go into detail because others have already beat it pretty well.
The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins” Hebrews 10:1-3
You’re debating with someone who is intellectually dishonest. Allow me to point out the verse he left out:

"4because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. "

REEEEEEEALLY… so what this guy is doing is modifying the word of God to make it appear that Paul is talking about something other than the continued practice of old covenant sacrifices.

You see, the debate in early Christianity was never about the Real Presence. A jew would never consider “symbolic” consumption of the lamb’s body and blood to be valid participation in the passover. Similarly, early christians (aka, jewish converts) KNEW with certainty that they had to literally consume the Body and Blood of Christ or they COULD NOT PARTICIPATE in that final passover sacrifice.

The arguement Paul is settling here is quite different: this was to settle the debate over whether or not Christians still had to attend annual passover sacrifices. There was a contingent that felt Jewish ceremonial law had to be kept, including the sacrifice of bulls and goats.

So what this person is doing is attempting to deceive you by changing the meaning of a particular passage. Using the scripture as a tool to lie is particularly filthy.
“And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all
. 11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.” Hebrews 10:10-14

Reading the parts in red, particularly the bolded red, makes mincemeat of his argument here, especially when we consider that paul is referring to the argument around continued OLD COVENANT sacrifices at the temple, not communion with the real presence.
I would encourage you to read Hebrews 9:11-10:18 in its entirety.’
Why stop at 18? Why not continue on to verse 20?

“19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body”

Oh beans, that’s RIGHT! If we don’t crop the scripture, we quickly see that we are expected to enter into the Holy Place (aka union with God) by the Blood and Body of Christ.

It’s amazing, when you don’t crop scripture with a butcher’s carving blade, it suddenly becomes very catholic again… 😃
OK, so help me respond to this.
I would just like to point out again that in judaism there is no such thing as a symbolic participation in the passover. Either you eat the lamb and drink it’s blood, or you have not participated in the sacrifice. Being that the passover was a precurser to the Communion, we cannot symbolically participate in this sacrifice any more than the Jews could. Either we eat the Body and Blood of the Lamb of God, or we HAVE NOT partaken of His final sacrifice.
 
Having eaten passover meals with Jews, I can tell you, as others have said, the passover meal is not a memorial. It is a sacramental joining of Jews into the passover.

Furthermore, the Communion is not a hollow shadow of the passover meal. Instead, the passover meal is an imperfect precursor to Communion. The symbolic act is NOT the communion, but rather the jewish passover.
Super stuff well explicated, cut for length.
I would just like to point out again that in judaism there is no such thing as a symbolic participation in the passover. Either you eat the lamb and drink it’s blood, or you have not participated in the sacrifice.
“Warning-warning-warning” (picture small robot waving arms) - the Jews did not drink the blood of the Passover lamb. The lambs, like every other animal slaughtered for food, had their throats cut and the blood thoroughly drained out of them. The Lord God’s instructions were very emphatic and explicit - because the blood of a creature “contains” its life, it is reserved to God. The Jews were never, never to eat the blood of any creature. This is what made Jesus’ words in John 6 and at the Last Supper so radical, so disturbing, in fact, that many who had been His followers left Him.
Being that the passover was a precurser to the Communion, we cannot symbolically participate in this sacrifice any more than the Jews could. Either we eat the Body and Blood of the Lamb of God, or we HAVE NOT partaken of His final sacrifice.
In the Old Covenant, the people were spared because of the blood of the Paschal lamb, smeared on the doorframe, and sprinkled with the blood of the sacrifices at Sinai. In the New Covenant, we consume the very life of the Sacrificial Lamb, who is the eternal Lord, and so are given a share in His life.
 
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