Question on the perpetual virginity of Mary...

[Walden_Pond]

Also, does it make any difference what I believe?

I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut but this thread is about the perpetual virginity of Mary, mother of God. There are threads about the Divinity of Jesus, where this discussion is more appropriate and would be appreciated. If you question whether Jesus was God, then a discussion about his mother’s perpetual virginity is irrelevant. It starts your quest for the truth in the middle of the story. No one is going to convince you about the Truth; it will be a gift of the Holy Spirit once you begin to seek the truth behind the Church.

As the King said to the White Rabbit in Lewis Carroll’s “Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland”,
‘Begin at the beginning and go on till you come to the end.’

 

[ezeekl]

Jesus was a very clever politician and teacher. Does that make him out to be a charlatan?
By St. John writing that he was God doesn’t hurt his credibility either. Of course, by the time the Gospel of St. John appeared, the Apostolic Creed was being preached far and wide without any overtone that Jesus was God.

Also, does it make any difference what I believe?

In the short run, no. Let’s face it, you have no hope for the future. But what does make a difference is that you label yourself as non-denominational which has the connotation that you are christian. Yet, you deny the diety of Christ. You are no christian, denominational or non denominational. Are you ashamed to label yourself for what you really are, an atheist or possibly an agnostic? Why so?

 

[po18guy]

nmgauss;11591729:

Jesus was a very clever politician and teacher. Does that make him out to be a charlatan? By St. John writing that he was God doesn’t hurt his credibility either. Of course, by the time the Gospel of St. John appeared, the Apostolic Creed was being preached far and wide without any overtone that Jesus was God.

By what authority to you question or deny the divinity of Christ? Just asking.
nmgauss;11591729:

Also, does it make any difference what I believe?

Only when you are before the judgment seat of Christ. Now, that’s biblical.

 

[bedan_elite]

My 2 cents and I could be wrong. One of the consequence (punishment) for Eve’s sin is that women will have to suffer the agony of giving birth to a child… Our Blessed Mother who is the Immaculate Conception was conceived without original sin because she was not subject to the consequence of Eve’s disobedience to God. There are many passages in the Gospels wherein our Lord just appeared physically to the disciples from nowhere. Regarding His birth, I don’t think it is impossible that He just came out without passing thru His mothers reproductive system…

 

[gntlmnr]

I’ve noticed many protestants disagree with the Catholic dogma that Mary, mother of Jesus, was not a perpetual virgin. And I was wondering if there is anything in the scriptures that explicitly precludes the possibility of Mary not bearing other children following the birth of Christ?

Please refer to the following link. It might answer some of your questions:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=56667

 

[Protestor]

Of course, by the time the Gospel of St. John appeared, the Apostolic Creed was being preached far and wide without any overtone that Jesus was God.

References? please. I do not accept wiki as a credible source. I’m not hating just asking.

I thought that the creeds was quoted by Irenaeus and Tertullian about 150 for Irenaeus and 200ish for Tertullian. I mention these two not only because they both used it in writing but they were also far from each other. John’s Gospel was said to have been written around 90’s and the earliest partial manuscript is from the around 125. In conclusion I think that your facts are switched. I would love to be refuted

For more info on the Apostles Creed ( newadvent.org/cathen/01629a.htm )

 

[gntlmnr]

I deleted the post. Sorry.

 

[gntlmnr]

Since the Book of Isaiah was available to Jesus, IMHO, his statements as written in the Gospels were likely highly influenced by what he read. Thus, if there was a story of a virgin birth in Isaiah, claiming that for himself would be a great way to lend credibility to his messages. If he could also lay claim to Immanu-el and the Messiah as prophesied in the OT, that also would increase his influence.

Jesus was very intelligent and a remarkable teacher, and boosting his believability by claiming that he has fulfilled prophesy was an excellent strategy. Also, his political foresight in forming a group of disciples ensured that his teachings would continue to influence people even after his crucifixion.

I truly don’t understand where you’re coming from. You claim to be “Non-denominational”. Does that mean “Non-denominational Christian” or literally “Non-denominational” as in “Non-religious”?

It is important to know the religion of the person you’re debating with, because I have Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Muslims, Evangelicals from many denominations knocking at my door to discuss religion with me. I have to know first what their religion is, because I have to place their argument in the correct context in order for me to understand it and decide whether to accept it or refute it.

At any rate, Jesus resurrected from death and there were at least 11 disciples that were witnesses to that fact, and those 11 disciples were willing to offer their own lives to defend that fact. It is difficult enough to believe that a single person would fabricate a lie, and then he would be willing to offer his own life to defend his own fabricated lie, let alone believing that at least 11 people would fabricate a lie, and then they would be all willing to offer their own lives to defend their own fabricated lie.

 

[godisgood77]

I submit to the teaching out of the obedience to the Church.

I do not, however, understand why this teaching needed to be declared or what the faithful can learn from it. Seems like this idea originated during a time when sexual relations where considered to be sinful even within marriage and was only to be tolerated as a way to increase and multiply. I sometimes wish that the holy family could be held up as a model in this area of our marriages. Thank goodness, the Church has come to a better understanding of how God designed humans and our sexuality - sacramental, life giving, and unitive.

 

[nmgauss]

References? please. I do not accept wiki as a credible source. I’m not hating just asking.

I thought that the creeds was quoted by Irenaeus and Tertullian about 150 for Irenaeus and 200ish for Tertullian. I mention these two not only because they both used it in writing but they were also far from each other. John’s Gospel was said to have been written around 90’s and the earliest partial manuscript is from the around 125. In conclusion I think that your facts are switched. I would love to be refuted

For more info on the Apostles Creed ( newadvent.org/cathen/01629a.htm )

What makes you think I was using wiki? Even if I was, if the wiki article has a substantial list of references to back it up, it is more likely to be reliable.

I would like to locate the earliest document in which the Apostle’s Creed is laid out. If none of the original pieces of writing by the Apostle’s themselves survives, then we are left only with what Irenaeus and Tertullian wrote 130 to 180 years later. Whatever spin both people may have introduced is what we have to deal with. It has been determined by scholars of religious literature that these writings had a purpose over and above recording what actually happened. Enhancing Christianity was the main reason why they were written. The same can be said for the Gospels.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

What makes you think I was using wiki? Even if I was, if the wiki article has a substantial list of references to back it up, it is more likely to be reliable.

I would like to locate the earliest document in which the Apostle’s Creed is laid out. If none of the original pieces of writing by the Apostle’s themselves survives, then we are left only with what Irenaeus and Tertullian wrote 130 to 180 years later. Whatever spin both people may have introduced is what we have to deal with. It has been determined by scholars of religious literature that these writings had a purpose over and above recording what actually happened. Enhancing Christianity was the main reason why they were written. The same can be said for the Gospels.

Does it occur to you that even scholars have agendas? That they fit the facts to their own fanciful notions or to support their agenda? Especially when these “facts” are themselves debatable and argued pro and con?

You surely assume religion is doing this, why are your scholars not also doing it?

You have not answered anyone’s question about your own religious background. Perhaps it would interfere with your own agenda?

 

[nmgauss]

Does it occur to you that even scholars have agendas? That they fit the facts to their own fanciful notions or to support their agenda? Especially when these “facts” are themselves debatable and argued pro and con?

You surely assume religion is doing this, why are your scholars not also doing it?

You have not answered anyone’s question about your own religious background. Perhaps it would interfere with your own agenda?

True peer-reviewed scholarship has no agenda other than seeking unbiased truth. There is no such thing as heresy or blasphemy in scholarship. Only those bent on protecting their beliefs are suspect in their statements. There is a plethora of wordy writings that are of a preachy nature. I totally ignore these.

Even works designed to prove a point are suspect. If there was investigation without the need to prove anything, that would be the highest form of scholarship.

I have no religious beliefs. I was raised in a godless home, although my grandparents were devout Christians. Neither my father or mother paid any attention to the church.

 

[gntlmnr]

I have no religious beliefs. I was raised in a godless home, although my grandparents were devout Christians. Neither my father or mother paid any attention to the church.

Then it would be a lot more appropriate to state something other than “Non-denominational” in the Religion field above, because when people say they are “Non-denominational”, they usually mean that they are Christian, and they would be very offended when somebody says to them that Jesus Christ is not God.

The fact that you are stating that you are “Non-denominational” then you turn around and state that Jesus is not God, that is not antagonizing only the Catholics, but it is adding insult over injury to the “Non-denominational” Christian Church.

 

[gntlmnr]

I’m quite willing to obediently accept the teaching of the church in this matter but for the life of me, I can’t think of why it would matter. I’ve had it explained to me with a very compelling explanation but there is nothing in that information that makes a difference in my life.

I’m not trying to be flip or dismissive here but how is this important? If she was forever a virgin or was not, what practical gain does that cause in your life? Either way, I see no importance in this information.

First of all, I truly like to thank you for being so sincere in your question, and you certainly don’t come across as trying to be flip or dismissive at all in your post. I’m originally from Lebanon, but I spent some years in Louisiana, and I had a few Southern Baptist friends there (I know that Baptist and Southern Baptist isn’t the same thing). We had some differences when it came to our approach to Christianity, but what was striking to me about them was their extreme sincerity and humility, and I truly appreciate these qualities in any human being, regardless of what denomination or religion that person belongs to.

This is my take on the subject:

1 – Mary is the mother of Jesus. Jesus is God. That makes Mary the mother of God. This title is not a light weight title. Her title alone deserves utmost respect, and her title alone compels me to know the TRUTH about her. Mary is not supposed to be a marginal personality in the Bible; she is not supposed to be a marginal personality in Jesus’ life; thus she is not supposed to be a marginal personality in Christian life. After Jesus’ birth, God did not tell Mary that her role came to an end, and thus she should be a good girl and sit quietly in the background. They say it takes a whole town to raise one child. I can only imagine what it would take to raise the Son of God. I’m willing to bet that it would take complete devotion.

2 – In (John 2:3) we see Mary asking Jesus to do something about the fact that “They have no wine.” In (John 2:4) Jesus responds: “Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come.” But in spite of His response, we know that Mary’s concern DID affect Him, and we know that Jesus DID indeed listen to his mother’s request, and He performed His FIRST miracle as a result of His mother’s concern/request even though His hour has not yet come. So that truly tells us that Mary had her weight even in Jesus’ life, and that Mary made a difference even in Jesus’ life, and that tells us also that Jesus DOES listen to his mother’s requests, and that Mary’s concerns are also Jesus’ concerns as well.

3 – Have you ever asked your own mother to pray for you at any point in your life? I know that I asked my own mother to pray for me at many points in my life. Why do we ask our mothers to pray for us? Isn’t because we are hoping that Jesus would listen to our mothers’ requests? When we already know how much Jesus listens to His mother’s requests, why would that prevent us from asking His mother to pray for us? That’s all what the relationship is between the Catholic people and Mary. The Catholics do not worship Mary, nor do Catholics consider Mary a “goddess”, as some people wrongly believe. Catholics just ask Mary to pray for them just like they ask their own mothers to pray for them.

4 – I’ve heard many people ask: why do Catholics pray “TO” Mary when they say the “Hail Mary”? In fact Catholics are not praying “TO” Mary when they say the “Hail Mary”, but instead Catholics are asking Mary to “PRAY FOR THEM”. This is what “Hail Mary” says just in case you didn’t know:

 1.	Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
 2.	Holy Mary Mother of God “PRAY FOR US” sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen

The first part is all taken literally from the Bible. In the second part it is very clearly evident that we are asking Mary to “PRAY FOR US”, and we are not praying” TO” Mary like we pray to God.

 

[bedan_elite]

There is only one sin that was unforgivable by God and that is Lucifer’s and his angels’ sin of “pride”…

 

[Brandall]

Then it would be a lot more appropriate to state something other than “Non-denominational” in the Religion field above, because when people say they are “Non-denominational”, they usually mean that they are Christian, and they would be very offended when somebody says to them that Jesus Christ is not God.

The fact that you are stating that you are “Non-denominational” then you turn around and state that Jesus is not God, that is not antagonizing only the Catholics, but it is adding insult over injury to the “Non-denominational” Christian Church.

Regardless of what the title “Non-denominational” might mean to anyone else, it is accurate as well for NMGAUSS.

 

[Brandall]

First of all, I truly like to thank you for being so sincere in your question, and you certainly don’t come across as trying to be flip or dismissive at all in your post. I’m originally from Lebanon, but I spent some years in Louisiana, and I had a few Southern Baptist friends there (I know that Baptist and Southern Baptist isn’t the same thing). We had some differences when it came to our approach to Christianity, but what was striking to me about them was their extreme sincerity and humility, and I truly appreciate these qualities in any human being, regardless of what denomination or religion that person belongs to.

This is my take on the subject:

1 – Mary is the mother of Jesus. Jesus is God. That makes Mary the mother of God. This title is not a light weight title. Her title alone deserves utmost respect, and her title alone compels me to know the TRUTH about her. Mary is not supposed to be a marginal personality in the Bible; she is not supposed to be a marginal personality in Jesus’ life; thus she is not supposed to be a marginal personality in Christian life. After Jesus’ birth, God did not tell Mary that her role came to an end, and thus she should be a good girl and sit quietly in the background. They say it takes a whole town to raise one child. I can only imagine what it would take to raise the Son of God. I’m willing to bet that it would take complete devotion.

2 – In (John 2:3) we see Mary asking Jesus to do something about the fact that “They have no wine.” In (John 2:4) Jesus responds: “Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come.” But in spite of His response, we know that Mary’s concern DID affect Him, and we know that Jesus DID indeed listen to his mother’s request, and He performed His FIRST miracle as a result of His mother’s concern/request even though His hour has not yet come. So that truly tells us that Mary had her weight even in Jesus’ life, and that Mary made a difference even in Jesus’ life, and that tells us also that Jesus DOES listen to his mother’s requests, and that Mary’s concerns are also Jesus’ concerns as well.

3 – Have you ever asked your own mother to pray for you at any point in your life? I know that I asked my own mother to pray for me at many points in my life. Why do we ask our mothers to pray for us? Isn’t because we are hoping that Jesus would listen to our mothers’ requests? When we already know how much Jesus listens to His mother’s requests, why would that prevent us from asking His mother to pray for us? That’s all what the relationship is between the Catholic people and Mary. The Catholics do not worship Mary, nor do Catholics consider Mary a “goddess”, as some people wrongly believe. Catholics just ask Mary to pray for them just like they ask their own mothers to pray for them.

4 – I’ve heard many people ask: why do Catholics pray “TO” Mary when they say the “Hail Mary”? In fact Catholics are not praying “TO” Mary when they say the “Hail Mary”, but instead Catholics are asking Mary to “PRAY FOR THEM”. This is what “Hail Mary” says just in case you didn’t know:

 1.	Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
 2.	Holy Mary Mother of God “PRAY FOR US” sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen

The first part is all taken literally from the Bible. In the second part it is very clearly evident that we are asking Mary to “PRAY FOR US”, and we are not praying” TO” Mary like we pray to God.

In your point 4 you say that Catholics do not pray “TO” Mary but really they do. A prayer is a request. In the Hail Mary, it is requesting that she prays for you but you are praying (requesting of her) to Mary. I fully understand that you can’t pray to Mary for a new bike but you can pray to Mary and ask her to ask her son. That I get.

I appreciate your long answer but it didn’t address the subject. I don’t understand what importance it is if Mary was perpetually virginal but it isn’t a big hang up. It just isn’t something that, at this time, provides any thing for me.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

In your point 4 you say that Catholics do not pray “TO” Mary but really they do. A prayer is a request. In the Hail Mary, it is requesting that she prays for you but you are praying (requesting of her) to Mary. I fully understand that you can’t pray to Mary for a new bike but you can pray to Mary and ask her to ask her son. That I get.

I appreciate your long answer but it didn’t address the subject. I don’t understand what importance it is if Mary was perpetually virginal but it isn’t a big hang up. It just isn’t something that, at this time, provides any thing for me.

How would you feel if you knew that the Arc of the Covenant was later used as a storage box for the Temple’s cups and bowls? Would it not seem sacrilegious, considering it was at one time the instrument of God’s presence among the Israelites. Do you suppose the Jews would even consider such a thing, supposing they still had the Arc of the Covenant?

This is the basis of the the Virgin Mary’s Perpetual Virginity. She was far more than the Arc of the Covenant. She was the tabernacle of the Living God IN THE FLESH. Not even the Temple in Jerusalem was this exalted.

It is important to see beyond mere appearances with the eyes of Faith, and see the extraordinary dignity and exaltation that belonged to the Virgin Mary by bearing the Son of God. This is something Christians have meditated on for centuries, especially the early Church. The Virgin Mary was not some disposable tool used by God for his temporary needs. That is what some Christians today have reduced her to. That is why it seems perfectly logical to them that she would “get on with her life” after the Nativity of Jesus. But the blindness and folly of that line of thought is repugnant to reverent and thoughtful Christians.

 

[gntlmnr]

Regardless of what the title “Non-denominational” might mean to anyone else, it is accurate as well for NMGAUSS.

I am going to assume that you are right, because you seem to be an authority on the subject. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[Brandall]

I am going to assume that you are right, because you seem to be an authority on the subject. Thank you for the clarification.

You’re very welcome!