I
Inishfree
Guest
I agree. I respect the Muslim faith, same for Jewish. It should never be “us verses them.”
Allah is the arabic word for God. The same God/I AM of the Jews and Christians.
- Status
Allah is the arabic word for God. The same God/I AM of the Jews and Christians.
F
Fone_Bone_2001
Guest
Of course, I’m fully with you on all the Islamic claims you cite above: as I’m a Christian, I reject them unequivocally.
Thank you for the clarification. See, the way you’ve responded is how discussions like this should go: we should proceed with responsibility and specificity.
Indeed. Of course, there are plenty of things in Islam I reject - the items in jakasaki’s list above, for instance. And I do think some of their cultural and political problems genuinely have their origin in the fact that on a theological level, Islam has no way to connect God and His justice to the ways of human beings (i.e. Blessed John Paul II called Islam “a religion without redemption”).
But certainly we should still give credit where credit is due: Muslims believe in the One True God, they correctly understand many of His Divine attributes, Islamic teaching stands solidly against the sinfulness of the modern world in areas like fornication, pornography, contraception, abortion, indifference toward the plight of the poor, etc.
Of course they have their moral (and theological) problems, too. But we shouldn’t pretend that everything in Islam is bad any more than everything in Islam is good.
R
rikkk1958
Guest
Shall we hide the truth because some posters here says that Muslims worship the same God? Shall we not correct them for their errors in believing in the life of Jesus? Shall we not let them know that most of the Muslims are interpreting their Quran incorrectly and its the reason why some of them caused terrorism around the world? Shall we live them alone and let them force their false religion?
I do not think that refuting is the same as bashing. When they joined the forum, I am sure that they are here because they want to defend their faith, and also most probably want to tell us that our faith is wrong. We have the truth! The truth must come out. This is what forum is all about. I for one is not a theologian or a scholar, but thanks to this website, I learned a lot and my knowledge for the truth is building up every time I logged in.
The moderators here knows when bashing is not appropriate and will let us know when it happens. Let the forum function as it is.
I do not think that refuting is the same as bashing. When they joined the forum, I am sure that they are here because they want to defend their faith, and also most probably want to tell us that our faith is wrong. We have the truth! The truth must come out. This is what forum is all about. I for one is not a theologian or a scholar, but thanks to this website, I learned a lot and my knowledge for the truth is building up every time I logged in.
The moderators here knows when bashing is not appropriate and will let us know when it happens. Let the forum function as it is.
S
sedonaman
Guest
I think you should be aware that the historical record shows that when you are fair to Islam, you are playing with dynamite.
Now you’re not being fair. Every time Islam is debated, the discussion always winds up comparing it with Christianity. The classic is the discussion over Islam’s prescription for violence. This always prompts the response, “There’s violence in the Bible, too.” This is the tu quoque argument. Violence in the Bible is irrelevant to the question of Islam’s teachings. Endless time has been spent on what Islam is, and the only way to find out [IMHO] is to do a statistical analysis, and Warner has provided one for us:…All of Western logic is based upon the law of contradiction – if two things contradict, then at least one of them is false. But Islamic logic is dualistic; two things can contradict each other and both are true. No dualistic system may be measured by one answer. This is the reason that the arguments about what constitutes the “real” Islam go on and on and are never resolved. A single right answer does not exist.
…
For an example of using statistics, look at the question: what is the real jihad, the jihad of inner, spiritual struggle or the jihad of war? Let’s turn to Bukhari (the Hadith) for the answer, as he repeatedly speaks of jihad. In Bukhari 97% of the jihad references are about war and 3% are about the inner struggle. So the statistical answer is that jihad is 97% war and 3% inner struggle. Is jihad war? Yes – 97%. Is jihad inner struggle? Yes – 3%. So if you are writing an article, you can make a case for either. But in truth, almost every argument about Islam can be answered by: all of the above. Both sides of the duality are right.
So, when poster “Murcury” said,
he is right; but, in view of Islam’s duality, the question then becomes how much right is he?
Warner continues:Religious Islam is what a Muslim does to avoid Hell and go to Paradise. These are the Five Pillars – prayer, charity to Muslims, pilgrimage to Mecca, fasting, and declaring Mohammed to be the final prophet. But the Trilogy (Koran, Sira, and Hadith) is clear about the doctrine. At least 75% of the Sira (life of Mohammed) is about jihad. About 67% of the Koran written in Mecca is about the unbelievers, or politics. Of the Koran of Medina, 51% is devoted to the unbelievers. About 20% of Bukhari’s Hadith is about jihad and politics. Religion is the smallest part of Islamic foundational texts.
Political Islam’s most famous duality is the division of the world into believers, dar al Islam, and unbelievers, dar al harb [lit. “house of war”. This is why wherever you have Islam, you will have war.]. The largest part of the Trilogy relates to treatment of the unbelievers, kafirs. Even Hell is political. There are 146 references to Hell in the Koran. Only 6% of those in Hell are there for moral failings – murder, theft, etc. The other 94% of the reasons for being in Hell are for the intellectual sin of disagreeing with Mohammed, a political crime. [This is the “treason” that poster “Murcury” mentioned.] Hence, Islamic Hell is a political prison for those who speak against Islam.
Another concept worth mentioning here is the idea that Islam is peaceful and that it fights only “defensive” wars. To understand why, you have to understand where Muslims are coming from. Islam’s destiny [they believe] is to rule the world, and anything standing in the way of that goal is waging “offensive” war against it, therefore, any Muslim response is “defensive”. In fact, the mere existence of an unbeliever is an “offense” against Islam.
I don’t consider being truthful about the real nature of Islam to be “bashing”. You might find interesting a non-Christian perspective, “The Decrees of Islam”.
S
sedonaman
Guest
Like what? Where did you get this idea? Muslim posters here have said in the past that Allah’s nature cannot be known; only his will can be known.
I don’t think anyone has said that everything in Islam is bad, but the most common problem causing confusion in these discussions is that some do not, will not, and cannot distinguish between Islam and Muslims. One poster in another thread responded to a criticism of Islam with the statement, “I don’t hate Muslims.” Another common mistake some make is, “I know some nice Muslims, therefore Islam is good.”
A
Abu_Toshiba
Guest
'sedonaman':
.يَأيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءامَنُوا إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلَا يَقْرَبُوا الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَذَا
O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque.
The only place where people belonging to a faith other than Islam are not allowed to go is in Mecca, anywhere else, people do have the right to go, visit and live in and they have also the freedoom to worship and practice their faith as they wish. For instance, you’ll find a lot of christian communities and jewish communities in the ‘‘Islamic countries’’ that have been there, on these countries soil, for more than a millenium. Iraq had one of the biggest christian community, Libanon, Syria, Yemen … Morocco had one of the biggest jewish community before the creation of Israel etc. etc.
'rikkk1958':
Did you know that if we gathered all the narrations narrating the sayings of Muhammad (saw) , we would have perhaps a Book of the same size as that of the Bible … in comparison to that, if we were to gather all the sayings of Jesus (pbuh) as you have them in your Bible and join them together, it would fit the size of 2 columns of a news paper. and since you’re speaking about accuracy, did you know that for each sayings of Muhammad (saw) we have a looong chain of narration that goes back to him (saw), however the same could not be said about the sayings of Jesus (pbuh) as you can find them in the gospels of Mark, Math, Luc and John.
You also say there many false prophets that came around who sounded believable and wrote books much coprehensive than your Qur’an … where you referring to ‘Paul’ ? I’m aware of the fact that he did wrote boooks (plural) and he also made the claim of seeing God, however, I don’t regard his writings as being more comprehensive than the Qur’an, but just in case you weren’t speaking about Paul and his writings … if you could name the title of a book writen by a false apostle and that sounded to your ears more comprehensive than the Qur’an, I would appreciate.
'rikkk1958':
and it’s a good reminder, are we really truth seekers ? did we make a good intention coming here and debating with others ? sometimes we take too much pleasure in debating with others, and the danger is when you start having this kind of desire to debate others in order to vanquish them, to show them how superior you are on an intellectual level and how fools they are, and you debate them in order to fulfill this selfish desire rather then doing it for the sake of the One in who’s hand is your soul.
what I do is remind myself with a good reminder, since no one is free from the whispers of Shaytan (Satan), I love this quote of Imam Shafi’i (may Allah have mercy on him):
“Never do I debate a man with a desire to hear him err in his speech, or to expose the flaws in his argument, and thus vanquish him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently supplicate, ‘O Lord, help him so that truth may manifest itself in his heart and on his tongue. If it be that the truth is on my side, may he follow me; and if the truth be on his side, may I follow him.’”
and I seek refuge with God Almighty from being of those whom Shaytan made puffed up in their arrogance.
The Holy Qur’an says in Chapter 9: verse 28
.يَأيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءامَنُوا إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلَا يَقْرَبُوا الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَذَا
O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque.
The only place where people belonging to a faith other than Islam are not allowed to go is in Mecca, anywhere else, people do have the right to go, visit and live in and they have also the freedoom to worship and practice their faith as they wish. For instance, you’ll find a lot of christian communities and jewish communities in the ‘‘Islamic countries’’ that have been there, on these countries soil, for more than a millenium. Iraq had one of the biggest christian community, Libanon, Syria, Yemen … Morocco had one of the biggest jewish community before the creation of Israel etc. etc.
'rikkk1958':
what do you mean by ‘the story of the holy bible is just too much for you to compare with the life of Muhammad (saw)’ ?
Did you know that if we gathered all the narrations narrating the sayings of Muhammad (saw) , we would have perhaps a Book of the same size as that of the Bible … in comparison to that, if we were to gather all the sayings of Jesus (pbuh) as you have them in your Bible and join them together, it would fit the size of 2 columns of a news paper. and since you’re speaking about accuracy, did you know that for each sayings of Muhammad (saw) we have a looong chain of narration that goes back to him (saw), however the same could not be said about the sayings of Jesus (pbuh) as you can find them in the gospels of Mark, Math, Luc and John.
You also say there many false prophets that came around who sounded believable and wrote books much coprehensive than your Qur’an … where you referring to ‘Paul’ ? I’m aware of the fact that he did wrote boooks (plural) and he also made the claim of seeing God, however, I don’t regard his writings as being more comprehensive than the Qur’an, but just in case you weren’t speaking about Paul and his writings … if you could name the title of a book writen by a false apostle and that sounded to your ears more comprehensive than the Qur’an, I would appreciate.
'rikkk1958':
This sounds good.
and it’s a good reminder, are we really truth seekers ? did we make a good intention coming here and debating with others ? sometimes we take too much pleasure in debating with others, and the danger is when you start having this kind of desire to debate others in order to vanquish them, to show them how superior you are on an intellectual level and how fools they are, and you debate them in order to fulfill this selfish desire rather then doing it for the sake of the One in who’s hand is your soul.
what I do is remind myself with a good reminder, since no one is free from the whispers of Shaytan (Satan), I love this quote of Imam Shafi’i (may Allah have mercy on him):
“Never do I debate a man with a desire to hear him err in his speech, or to expose the flaws in his argument, and thus vanquish him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently supplicate, ‘O Lord, help him so that truth may manifest itself in his heart and on his tongue. If it be that the truth is on my side, may he follow me; and if the truth be on his side, may I follow him.’”
and I seek refuge with God Almighty from being of those whom Shaytan made puffed up in their arrogance.
A
Abu_Toshiba
Guest
'sedonaman':
and then you quote a passage which isnt even a Quranic passage (just so you know, since you began by saying ‘‘For every passage in the Qur’an, there is an equal but opposite passage.’’). However, we do find this quote in a hadith that deals with apostasy, which is a completely and totally different issue.
'sedonaman':
Wassalam Alaikum
Son of Adam
that was a really bad exemple you provided, you quoted the Quranic verse which states ‘‘no compulsion in religion’’ which means that we respect you as christian and we can both live together as neighbours and have a good relationship.
and then you quote a passage which isnt even a Quranic passage (just so you know, since you began by saying ‘‘For every passage in the Qur’an, there is an equal but opposite passage.’’). However, we do find this quote in a hadith that deals with apostasy, which is a completely and totally different issue.
'sedonaman':
In fact, as mentionned in the previous response above, this is not even a quote from the Qur’an but rather a hadith. and Yes it deals with ‘apostasy’ and you are right in saying what you said, it’s amazing, deep down inside yourself you already know the response and can easilly find a justification behind the death penalty for a Muslim opting out of Islam, since all you have to do is replace ‘Islam’ with ‘Judaism’ and ‘Muslim’ with ‘Jew’ and go back at the time where the jewish people used to live by God’s laws, and used to Love God’s Law as a complete system of regulation by which their societies was organised and built upon … that’s really all you have to do.
Wassalam Alaikum
Son of Adam
S
sedonaman
Guest
OK. Let me modify it slightly:For every passage in Islamic scripture, there is an equal but opposite passage. Are you happy now?
Then define apostasy, and don’t tell me it is “causing trouble in the land” [or words to that effect], which could mean anything, and explain how apostasy is different from leaving a religion.
S
sedonaman
Guest
I submit that Islam created the “us verses them” arrangement by dividing the world into two: the “House of Islam” and the “House of War”. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisions_of_the_world_in_Islam
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Abu_Toshiba
Guest
I ain’t happier, but I salute your effort.
I don’t understand how is apostasy suppose to be different from leaving a religion ?
A
Abu_Toshiba
Guest
When you try to argue that ‘‘Islam did this or that or that Islam says this or that’’ you have to understand one simple principle and it is that Islam is based on** the Qur’an** and the Sunnah (sayings and actions of our beloved prophet) … anything else isnt necessary what ‘‘Islam’’ advocates. for instance the distinction between ‘‘House of Islam’’ and ‘‘House of War’’ isnt found neither in the Qur’an nor on the lips of our beloved prophet.
From the same website you quoted, Wikipedia, one can read:
‘‘The idea of geographical divisions along religious lines first suggested by the early Sunni Muslim jurist Imam Abu Hanifa, founder of the Hanafi school of Islamic jurisprudence. However, adur are not mentioned in the Qur’an or the sayings of the Prophet in the Hadith, which are considered the primary sources in Islamic jurisprudence.’’
How could you miss that ?
Son of Adam
A
Abu_Toshiba
Guest
the ‘‘us verses them’’ always existed.
the Jews vs the Gentiles, the Gooddoers vs the Evildoers, those upon the truth vs those upon falsehood, the people of Paradise vs the people of the Hellfire, the Believers vs the Disbelievers, the Christians vs Non-Christians, Muslims vs Non-muslims, etc…
What’s wrong with that ?
I am a Muslim and proud of it and you are a Kaffir and proud of it ? aren’t you ?
Wassalam Alaikum
Son of Adam
O
OscarsMama
Guest
Perhaps I will “regret” writing this post later, but I am going to go out on a very scary very thin limb here. 
I am a cradle Catholic. I believe in all of the teachings of the Catholic Church. Truly I do not have a lot of knowledge about the Muslim Faith. In fact, now that I think about it, I do not have any friends or associates who are Muslim.
But I do live in the USA.
And I think a lot of the “fear,” “hostility,” “mis-understanding,” etc about the Muslim faith from other religions (in this country) comes from the events on September 11, 2001.
It was never on front burner of the debate table prior to that.
I am all for people debating religions and speaking about the common elements and the differences between religions. But I think that people have to take a long look at where the fear, hostility, and misunderstands truly come from…
Just a thought.
P.S. Seek Truth: Although you and I have a lot of differences, I think that you express yourself wonderfully.
I am a cradle Catholic. I believe in all of the teachings of the Catholic Church. Truly I do not have a lot of knowledge about the Muslim Faith. In fact, now that I think about it, I do not have any friends or associates who are Muslim.
But I do live in the USA.
And I think a lot of the “fear,” “hostility,” “mis-understanding,” etc about the Muslim faith from other religions (in this country) comes from the events on September 11, 2001.
It was never on front burner of the debate table prior to that.
I am all for people debating religions and speaking about the common elements and the differences between religions. But I think that people have to take a long look at where the fear, hostility, and misunderstands truly come from…
Just a thought.
P.S. Seek Truth: Although you and I have a lot of differences, I think that you express yourself wonderfully.
S
sedonaman
Guest
Sure they do. politicalislam.com/blog/bulletin-of-the-persecution-of-christians-may-2-may-25-2011
It is Kristallnacht for Christians.
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Abu_Toshiba
Guest
the fact that the website you quoted report news of christians getting persecuted in muslim countries proves my point, that christians and people belonging to other faiths lived on muslim soils for decades, centuries and even millenium. the news that are quoted arent necessary all true, sometimes people invent false stories to further their agenda watherever their agenda is. It is also to be noted that Muslims have been and still are persecuted and suffering on an even greater proportion than the christian and on their very own soil, since the website’s goal is crystal clear, to dress a list of all instances anywhere on the glob where a muslim did something bad to a christian (be it rightfully or wrongfully), I don’t expect it to build in line with this list a list of all instances around the glob where a christian did something bad to a muslim ( (be it rightfully or wrongfully), nor would i expect them to build a list of all instances where muslims and christians coexisted peacefully in the Islamic lands, instances of muslims babysitting christians childs (or vice-verca) and keep it updated. after all, Shall I expect any good to come out of a biased and anti-islamic propaganda websites ?
and If I were curious about Islam and wanted to learn more about this mighty religion, be it its political aspect, would you suggest me to go to an anti-islamic source to acquire this knowledge ?
Son of Adam
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sedonaman
Guest
Good thought. Also consider this:
There were 463 years between Mohammed’s death in 632 AD and the calling of a Crusade to free lands that had been Christian before the Muslim invaders arrived; but to hear what passes for common “knowledge” [from self-hating Christians at that!], the whole affair was solely the fault of power-hungry popes, greedy soldiers of fortune, and Christians who were persecuting harmless, pious Muslims minding their own business. Muslims are only too happy to help Christians perpetuate this mea maxima culpa attitude.
Stenhouse[1] lists only some of the events that took place in those 463 years, among them, 633 – Mesopotamia falls to Muslim invasion, followed by the entire Persian Empire
635 – Damascus falls
638 – Jerusalem capitulates
643 – Alexandria falls, ending 1,000 years of Hellenic civilization
648-49 – Cyprus falls
653 – Rhodes falls
673 – Constantinople attacked
698 – All of North Africa lost
711 – Spain invaded
717 – Muslims attack Constantinople again; repelled by Emperor Leo the Isaurian
721 – Saragossa falls, Muslims sights on southern France
720 – Narbonne falls.
732 – Bordeaux was stormed and its churches burnt down
732 – Charles Martel and his Frankish army defeat Muslims, turning back the Muslim tide
732 – Attacks on France continued
734 – Avignon captured by an Muslim force
743 – Lyons sacked
759 – Arabs driven out of Narbonne.
838 – Marseilles plundered
800 – Muslims incursions into Italy begin, Islands of Ponza and Ischia plundered
813 – Civitavecchia, the port of Rome sacked
826 – Crete falls to Muslim forces
827 – Muslim forces begin to attack Sicily.
837 – Naples repels a Muslim attack
838 – Marseilles taken
840 – Bari falls
842 – Messina captured and Strait of Messina controlled
846 – Muslims squadrons arrived at Ostia, at the Tiber’s mouth, sack Rome and St. Peter’s Basilica
846 – Taranto in Apulia conquered by Muslim forces
849 – Papal forces repel Muslim fleet at the mouth of the Tiber
853 – 871 – Italian coast from Bari down to Reggio Calabria controlled, Muslims terrorize Southern Italy.
859 – Muslims take control of all Messina
870 – Malta captured by the Muslims.
870 – Bari recaptured from the Muslims by Emperor Louis II
872 – Emperor Louis II defeats a Saracen fleet off Capua
872 – Muslim forces devastate Calabria
878 – Syracuse falls after a nine-month siege
879 – Pope John VIII forced to pay tribute of 25,000 mancuses (AUD$625,000) annually to the Muslims
880 – Byzantine Commanders gain victory over Saracen forces at Naples
881 – Muslims capture fortress near Anzio, plunder surrounding countryside with impunity for forty [40] years.
887 – Muslim armies take Hysela and Amasia, in Asia Minor.
889 – Toulon captured
902 – Muslim fleets sacked and destroyed Demetrias in Thessaly, Central Greece,
904 – Thessalonica falls to Muslim forces
915 – After three months of blockade, Christian forces victorious against Saracens holed-up in their fortresses north of Naples
921 – English pilgrims to Rome crushed to death under rocks rolled down on them by Saracens in the passes of the Alps
934 – Genoa attacked by Muslim forces
935 – Genoa taken
972 – Saracens finally driven from Faxineto
976 – Caliphs of Egypt send fresh Muslim expeditions into southern Italy. Initially the German Emperor Otho II , who had set up his headquarters in Rome, successfully defeated these Saracen forces
977 – Sergius, Archbishop of Damascus, expelled from his See by Muslims
982 – Emperor Otho’s forces ambushed and his army defeated
1003 – Muslims from Spain sack Antibes
1003-09 – Marauding bands of Saracens plunder Italian coast from Pisa to Rome from bases on Sardinia
1005 – Muslims from Spain sack Pisa
1009 – Caliph of Egypt orders destruction of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, the Tomb of Jesus
1010 – Saracens seize Cosenza in southern Italy.
1015 – All Sardinia falls
1016 – Muslims from Spain again sack Pisa
1017 – Fleets of Pisa and Genoa sail for Sardinia, find Saracens crucifying Christians, drive Saracen leader out. Saracens try to re-take Sardinia until 1050
1020 – Muslims from Spain sack Narbonne
1095 – The First Crusade.
While the pope has apologized for the Crusades, Muslims have never so much as acknowledged any responsibility. Why? The reason is that Islam is always right. Period.
For additional reading, see “The Real History of the Crusades” by Medieval historian Thomas F. Madden catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0055.html
Notes:
[1] “The Crusades In Context” by Dr Paul Stenhouse answering-islam.org.uk/Green/crusades-stenhouse.htm
[2] “JIHAD BEGOT THE CRUSADES”
Andrew Bostom americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4467 [Two parts]
[3] “The Legacy of Jihad in Historical Palestine”
Andrew Bostom
americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4999 [Two parts]
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sedonaman
Guest
My original statement was
Wherever they live under Islam, they have to live as dhimmis. There are no equal rights.
Don’t have a credible response? Hurl ad hominems.
Strange how the whole world is against Islam, isn’t it? It has had a persecution complex since the beginning. It is because of dar al Islam vs dar al harb. Which brings me to another observation: Islam never looks back at itself when it fails; its reaction is always, “Who did this to us?” never, “What did we do wrong that caused us to fail?”
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Abu_Toshiba
Guest
You sure love monologues ! you make the questions and answers yourself, but just in case you’re interested in hearing my response, then here it is: Judge the religion on its teachings and not on the actions of some of its followers. by the way, I ain’t implying condemnation of Islamic conquests, in fact I’m very gratefull that such events took place, I’m so happy that muslims made it trought North Africa, otherwise who knows, maybe I wouldn’t have been a muslim if such events didnt take place, as for those who did bad things or transgressed the limits set by Allah, then Allah will deal with them in the Hereafter. I as a muslim wouldn’t acknowledge any responsability in these conquests because I really have none, each one is accountable for his actions, why should I apologize for something I didnt do nor got involved in ?
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sedonaman
Guest
To my way of thinking it isn’t, but your fellow Muslim “Murcury” said,
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sedonaman
Guest
Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy, am I EVER gonna save this one for future reference!
Mohammed was the perfect Muslim, right? If he is the perfect Muslim, aren’t you supposed to imitate his actions? Whatever wrongs that Christians committed in fighting Crusades, they did so contrary to Jesus’ commands; Muslims who waged wars of conquest did so in imitation of Mohammed. While we can’t judge a religion on the actions of some of its followers, we certainly can on the actions of its founder.
I agree with your last sentence, and the same should apply to today’s Christians and the Crusades. The pope should have never apologized for them.
- Status