Question re SSPX

[giuseppeTO]

I have been associated with the SSPX for many years and I have a son who is an SSPX priest. I would not encourage anyone to start attending SSPX Masses just to see what they are like. You may initially like what you see but if that is all you are looking for, you will eventually become disinterested.

IMHO, the greatest crisis in the church today is that the majority of Catholics do not know their faith. In many cases they are even ignorant on the church’s teaching on the Real Presence. If all you know about your Catholic faith comes from the Sunday Mass sermon, you are in trouble. That goes for any Mass. Catholics must put down the secular reading for a bit and starting reading about our faith. Read the encyclicals of the Popes, readily available from Popes Leo XIII through Frances. Read the Council of Trent and the associated catechism, and also read the text of the First and Second Vatican Council. Read the writings of the great doctors of the church like Aquinas, Augustine, and Bellarmine.

You cant live a faith you do not know.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

You stated:

Consecrating bishops with the intention of forming a hierarchical structure parallel to the Supreme Pontiff’s is schismatic, (and this is what the Orthodox did) but this does not apply to Lefebvre’s consecrations, and to this day the SSPX bishops, unlike the Orthodox, do not claim to hold jurisdiction over any territory, which the Vatican recognizes:

The last part is legally insignificant.

The excommunication was incurred because of ordaining bishops without a papal mandate, which constitutes a schismatic act.

I am, frankly, disappointed that this thread is published. In the past, this sub-forum has forbidden reference to the SSPX.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Actually, I leave the matter in the hands of the moderator of the sub-forum given the prohibition regarding the SSPX that has existed on the Catholic Answers Forum.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Weren’t many of those excommunications lifted by Pope Benedict?

 

[e_c]

I confess I only have passing knowledge of this whole issue and the canons involved, but is there not a difference between “a schismatic act” and “a state of schism”?

 

[reggieM]

Weren’t many of those excommunications lifted by Pope Benedict?

Yes, the Holy See revised it’s position since 1988 so references to the Ecclesia Dei language is no longer relevant to the discussion.

 

[reggieM]

I have been associated with the SSPX for many years and I have a son who is an SSPX priest. I would not encourage anyone to start attending SSPX Masses just to see what they are like. You may initially like what you see but if that is all you are looking for, you will eventually become disinterested.

IMHO, the greatest crisis in the church today is that the majority of Catholics do not know their faith. In many cases they are even ignorant on the church’s teaching on the Real Presence. If all you know about your Catholic faith comes from the Sunday Mass sermon, you are in trouble. That goes for any Mass. Catholics must put down the secular reading for a bit and starting reading about our faith. Read the encyclicals of the Popes, readily available from Popes Leo XIII through Frances. Read the Council of Trent and the associated catechism, and also read the text of the First and Second Vatican Council. Read the writings of the great doctors of the church like Aquinas, Augustine, and Bellarmine.

You cant live a faith you do not know.

I know families who have lived entirely within SSPX communities, including their children who are in their 30s who never knew any other experience (and now grandchildren of a third generation).
Normally, a longevity like that, with future generations actually living within a certain tradition will cause the Holy See to take a more merciful approach.
This explains why Pope Francis granted faculties to SSPX priests to offer valid sacraments of Confession and Matrimony.
When the Pope issues regulations governing the religious practices of people like this, it indicates that they are within his flock.

As stated already, the SSPX is canonically irregular and their situation needs to be corrected and reconciled, but that is different than schism.

 

[reggieM]

I think the SSPX are doing a good job of preserving the Catholic faith the way it was before Vatican II. If it wasn’t for Archbishop Lefebvre, we probably wouldn’t have the FSSP, ICKSP, IBP or diocesan Traditional Latin Masses.

I agree although that does not justify disobedience to the Pope. But we are called to take a merciful approach to others and a sympathetic view of the situation that Abp. Lefevbre faced would provide some important insights on what happened.

Pope Benedict XVI’s letter is helpful also - he gives a sympathetic view:

We all know that, in the movement led by Archbishop Lefebvre, fidelity to the old Missal became an external mark of identity; the reasons for the break which arose over this, however, were at a deeper level. Many people who clearly accepted the binding character of the Second Vatican Council, and were faithful to the Pope and the Bishops, nonetheless also desired to recover the form of the sacred liturgy that was dear to them. This occurred above all because in many places celebrations were not faithful to the prescriptions of the new Missal, but the latter actually was understood as authorizing or even requiring creativity, which frequently led to deformations of the liturgy which were hard to bear. I am speaking from experience, since I too lived through that period with all its hopes and its confusion. And I have seen how arbitrary deformations of the liturgy caused deep pain to individuals totally rooted in the faith of the Church.

The Pope emeritus indicates that there was some injustice and that people desired to preserve the traditional form of the liturgy.
He then said this …

As for the use of the 1962 Missal as a Forma extraordinaria of the liturgy of the Mass, I would like to draw attention to the fact that this Missal was never juridically abrogated and, consequently, in principle, was always permitted.
w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/letters/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20070707_lettera-vescovi.html

I found that to be a very courageous thing to say, but also very heartbreaking.
The historical documents will show that the Holy See acted, and even legislated, that the 1962 Missal was not permitted any more. But now we see that this was not correct, legally since the Mass had not been abrogated.

I say “heartbreaking” because what better result might have happened if priests and bishops (like Abp Lefevbre) had simply been permitted to continue with the EF?

I don’t say this to blame anyone, but just to point out that the Church does have a human element and sometimes mistakes are made. In my opinion, I think we need to accept that and not take such a hard-line position against the SSPX, for example as we can see that there were some problems on both sides of the issue.

 

[ProVobis]

Weren’t many of those excommunications lifted by Pope Benedict?

Yes, they were.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

I have been associated with the SSPX for many years and I have a son who is an SSPX priest. I would not encourage anyone to start attending SSPX Masses just to see what they are like. You may initially like what you see but if that is all you are looking for, you will eventually become disinterested.

IMHO, the greatest crisis in the church today is that the majority of Catholics do not know their faith. In many cases they are even ignorant on the church’s teaching on the Real Presence. If all you know about your Catholic faith comes from the Sunday Mass sermon, you are in trouble. That goes for any Mass. Catholics must put down the secular reading for a bit and starting reading about our faith. Read the encyclicals of the Popes, readily available from Popes Leo XIII through Frances. Read the Council of Trent and the associated catechism, and also read the text of the First and Second Vatican Council. Read the writings of the great doctors of the church like Aquinas, Augustine, and Bellarmine.

You cant live a faith you do not know.

Even the person with an above average intellect, and plenty of time to spare will not have the fortitude or the intellectual training to digest the works that you refer to in this post.

I am grateful for the education and formation that Catholic clergy are given before they are ordained. It is their responsibility to pass on the Good News to those of us in the peanut gallery. Breaking away from the authority of the pope does not give me reassurance in regards to the catechizing that would be provided by said breakaway entity.

Incidentally, I wholeheartedly disagree with your following statements:

“IMHO, the greatest crisis in the church today is that the majority of Catholics do not know their faith.”

“If all you know about your Catholic faith comes from the Sunday Mass sermon, you are in trouble.”

“You cant live a faith you do not know.”

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Weren’t many of those excommunications lifted by Pope Benedict?

DECREE REMITTING
THE EXCOMMUNICATION “LATAE SENTENTIAE”
OF THE BISHOPS OF THE SOCIETY OF ST PIUS X

In a letter of 15 December 2008 addressed to Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, President of the Pontifical Commission “Ecclesia Dei”, Mons. Bernard Fellay writing also in the name of the other three Bishops consecrated on 30 June 1988 requested once again the removal of the excommunication latae sententiae formally declared by a Decree of the Prefect of this Congregation for Bishops on 1 July 1988. In his letter, Mons. Fellay stated, among other things, that “we continue firmly resolute in our desire to remain Catholics and to put all our strength at the service of the Church of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is the Roman Catholic Church. We accept her teachings in a filial spirit. We firmly believe in the primacy of Peter and in his prerogatives, and for this reason the current situation causes us much suffering”.

His Holiness Benedict XVI in his paternal concern for the spiritual distress which the parties concerned have voiced as a result of the excommunication, and trusting in their commitment, expressed in the aforementioned letter, to spare no effort in exploring as yet unresolved questions through requisite discussions with the authorities of the Holy See in order to reach a prompt, full and satisfactory solution to the original problem has decided to reconsider the canonical situation of Bishops Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Richard Williamson and Alfonso de Galarreta, resulting from their episcopal consecration.

This act signifies a desire to strengthen reciprocal relations of trust, and to deepen and stabilize the relationship of the Society of St Pius X with this Apostolic See. This gift of peace, coming at the end of the Christmas celebrations, is also meant to be a sign which promotes the Universal Church’s unity in charity, and removes the scandal of division.

It is hoped that this step will be followed by the prompt attainment of full communion with the Church on the part of the whole Society of St Pius X, which will thus bear witness to its genuine fidelity and genuine recognition of the Magisterium and authority of the Pope by the proof of visible unity.

On the basis of the powers expressly granted to me by the Holy Father Benedict XVI, by virtue of the present Decree I remit the penalty of excommunication latae sententiae incurred by Bishops Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Richard Williamson and Alfonso de Galarreta, and declared by this Congregation on 1 July 1988. At the same time I declare that, as of today’s date, the Decree issued at that time no longer has juridical effect.

Rome, from the Congregation for Bishops, 21 January 2009

Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re
Prefect
​

That was almost nine years ago. Their suffering and spiritual distress has not moved them very quickly to resolve what is entirely theirs to resolve, as it has been all along.

For those of us who have observed this from the beginning, it is one more very sorry chapter in a fifty year long saga concerning Lefebvre and his followers.

I shall remember to my dying day the horribleness of Lefebvre against the Blessed Pope Paul VI and Pope Saint John Paul II. As Successors of Peter, he owed them the obedience that he had solemnly promised at the time of his elevation to the episcopate.

Williamson has re-incurred the excommunication by ordaining another bishop without pontifical mandate.

 

[giuseppeTO]

Even the person with an above average intellect, and plenty of time to spare will not have the fortitude or the intellectual training to digest the works that you refer to in this post.

I am grateful for the education and formation that Catholic clergy are given before they are ordained. It is their responsibility to pass on the Good News to those of us in the peanut gallery. Breaking away from the authority of the pope does not give me reassurance in regards to the catechizing that would be provided by said breakaway entity.

Incidentally, I wholeheartedly disagree with your following statements:

I did not intend to imply that becoming canonically irregular was the pathway to a more complete catecisis - sorry if I was not clear.

As for the latter, this is a forum and you certainly have the right to disagree with mine or anyone else’s humble opinion. I don’t have much more than a Jesuit High School training in theology but I have no problem at least understanding and appreciating the Papal Encyclicals. I would not suggest tackling the Summa, but if you do, get the English version. Its easier than the Latin.

 

[reggieM]

I don’t have much more than a Jesuit High School training in theology but I have no problem at least understanding and appreciating the Papal Encyclicals. I would not suggest tackling the Summa, but if you do, get the English version. Its easier than the Latin.

I think a key point here is that people should take time and read the Encyclicals, Magisterial documents and writings of the saints and doctors from before Vatican II, and not just restrict yourself to documents written recently.

For me, one of the great benefits of the EF liturgy is that it puts us in touch with the ancient past in a way that a 20th century liturgical form does not (the OF has other benefits and I am not claiming one rite is superior to the other).
So, when more accustomed to the older liturgy, the more ancient teachings of saints and popes becomes less remote and more familiar.
We realize that we are connected to the past, and the teachings of the Magisterium of the past remain valuable and important for us today.
Some people, unfortunately, think that Pope Francis, for example, will “overturn prior doctrinal teachings of Popes”. But that’s not true.
Of course, if it was true then we wouldn’t have much reason to listen to Pope Francis today since his teachings could be shown to be false by a future pope.
The Deposit of Faith is what has been handed down by Christ to the apostles to today.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

I did not intend to imply that becoming canonically irregular was the pathway to a more complete catecisis - sorry if I was not clear.

It’s probably my lack of understanding of SSPX that is the problem. Perhaps that is one of the reasons for CAF’s dissuasion of SSPX threads.

As for the latter, this is a forum and you certainly have the right to disagree with mine or anyone else’s humble opinion. I don’t have much more than a Jesuit High School training in theology but I have no problem at least understanding and appreciating the Papal Encyclicals. I would not suggest tackling the Summa, but if you do, get the English version. Its easier than the Latin.

The average Catholic does not have the honor of going to a High School run by Jesuits, or any other order for that matter.

 

[giuseppeTO]

I think a key point here is that people should take time and read the Encyclicals, Magisterial documents and writings of the saints and doctors from before Vatican II, and not just restrict yourself to documents written recently.

For me, one of the great benefits of the EF liturgy is that it puts us in touch with the ancient past in a way that a 20th century liturgical form does not (the OF has other benefits and I am not claiming one rite is superior to the other).
So, when more accustomed to the older liturgy, the more ancient teachings of saints and popes becomes less remote and more familiar.
We realize that we are connected to the past, and the teachings of the Magisterium of the past remain valuable and important for us today.
Some people, unfortunately, think that Pope Francis, for example, will “overturn prior doctrinal teachings of Popes”. But that’s not true.
Of course, if it was true then we wouldn’t have much reason to listen to Pope Francis today since his teachings could be shown to be false by a future pope.
The Deposit of Faith is what has been handed down by Christ to the apostles to today.

Well said, Reggie.

 

[reggieM]

It’s probably my lack of understanding of SSPX that is the problem. Perhaps that is one of the reasons for CAF’s dissuasion of SSPX threads.

Just jumping in here - perhaps that’s a good reason why such threads should not be dissuaded - so we could gain a more sympathetic understanding of the SSPX and not just condemn them and close off discussion. We talk and learn about atheists, homosexuals, Mormons, Muslims, every variety of Protestant --all with admirable charity most of the time.
I don’t fault the CAF moderators for closing threads that have far more heat than light - and especially when it’s uncharitable (all sides are to blame), but it would be far better, in my opinion, for some understanding to be shared in a calm, charitable way so the Mods wouldn’t have to intervene like that.

The average Catholic does not have the honor of going to a High School run by Jesuits, or any other order for that matter.

That is something to lament. But even without that education, the average Catholic could become familiar with the teachings of the past – even just a page a day or a few pages a week.

 

[commenter]

Just jumping in here - perhaps that’s a good reason why such threads should not be dissuaded - so we could gain a more sympathetic understanding of the SSPX and not just condemn them and close off discussion. We talk and learn about atheists, homosexuals, Mormons, Muslims, every variety of Protestant --all with admirable charity most of the time.
I don’t fault the CAF moderators for closing threads that have far more heat than light - and especially when it’s uncharitable (all sides are to blame), but it would be far better, in my opinion, for some understanding to be shared in a calm, charitable way so the Mods wouldn’t have to intervene like that.

That is something to lament. But even without that education, the average Catholic could become familiar with the teachings of the past – even just a page a day or a few pages a week.

 

[SyroMalankara]

That was almost nine years ago. Their suffering and spiritual distress has not moved them very quickly to resolve what is entirely theirs to resolve, as it has been all along.

For those of us who have observed this from the beginning, it is one more very sorry chapter in a fifty year long saga concerning Lefebvre and his followers.

I shall remember to my dying day the horribleness of Lefebvre against the Blessed Pope Paul VI and Pope Saint John Paul II. As Successors of Peter, he owed them the obedience that he had solemnly promised at the time of his elevation to the episcopate.

Williamson has re-incurred the excommunication by ordaining another bishop without pontifical mandate.

My understanding is that Bishop Williamson - a former Anglican, who was received into Communion in 1971 in England, and quickly went toward SSPX - has been chastised and removed from the jurisdiction of the SSPX. He has created a fringe group that SSPX nor Holy See recognize. While the SSPX are in defacto separation, the majority of them still retain Catholicity and commemmorate the Holy Father every day. In addition, the separation seems to be just short of a few signatures for renewed recognition.

 

[commenter]

Sometimes the Church will throw out a lifeline to persons who are in pastoral situations that are weak, even risky. It would be a mistake to conclude that this is a “recognition” or endorsement for **remaining **in that risky situation; that the risky situation is an equally good option now, compared with “coming in”.

It is not helpful for either side in the SSPX debate to post arguments that try to prove this archbishop was right, or that pope was wrong, or this other Church official was hasty, or whatever. The 1960s and 1970s are over. These arguments persuade nobody today.

Even if it were proven (which I don’t presume) that the Church should have made better provision for the TLM decades ago, that does not benefit families in SSPX today. They are not helped by constant promises like this: “We are on the verge of getting a Personal Prelature, so whatever you do, don’t go to your diocese yet, stay put just a little longer”.

I wish posters would talk about current families as much as they talk about history.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Sometimes the Church will throw out a lifeline to persons who are in pastoral situations that are weak, even risky. It would be a mistake to conclude that this is a “recognition” or endorsement for **remaining **in that risky situation; that the risky situation is an equally good option now, compared with “coming in”.

It is not helpful for either side in the SSPX debate to post arguments that try to prove this archbishop was right, or that pope was wrong, or this other Church official was hasty, or whatever. The 1960s and 1970s are over. These arguments persuade nobody today.

Even if it were proven (which I don’t presume) that the Church should have made better provision for the TLM decades ago, that does not benefit families in SSPX today. They are not helped by constant promises like this: “We are on the verge of getting a Personal Prelature, so whatever you do, don’t go to your diocese yet, stay put just a little longer”.

I wish posters would talk about current families as much as they talk about history.

What about current families? They seem to be living their parish life at their SSPX run Catholic parish, no laity belong to SSPX only priests