Question regarding Mormon views on God

[cbelarski]

LJ…you know me much better than to say something that silly. Of course it matters!

You know by now that I’m a bit of a fanatic obsessive about this; if you want to know what a religion teaches, you go to the believers, NOT to non-believers, and especially not to people who are actively anti–or to ex-members.

My comment was to the way the question was phrased; yes, I’m testy, but c’mon; the OP (and followup post) was not addressed to Mormons…and made it rather clear that Mormons were not welcome to answer. He didn’t ask 'What do you believe?" He asked everybody else what they (Meaning those wierd Mormons) believed. This poster also (as did others) poisoned the well by telling us that we can’t explain why we believe this using scriptures that WE accept as valid.

Big. Red. Flag.

Isn’t that a bit like requiring Catholics to explain why they believe in this or that thing–without using Holy Tradition? It’s assinine. I absolutely agree that if I am going to try to prove to YOU that something we believe is ‘True,’ then I am restricted to those things we both consider to be authoritative–like those scriptures that are in the bible; the same goes for Catholics who want to prove to Protestants (or us…) that any certain doctrine is “True.”

However, to simply show what they ARE, and why we (and Catholics, for that matter) believe something, then those extra-biblical sources are important. They are part of our beliefs, our faith and our culture. If someone wants to know what Mormons and Catholics actually believe, then they ARE going to have to be willing to look at Holy Tradition—and the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price–what modern prophets have to say. They certainly don’t have to agree with what is said, or accept those sources as authoritative, but they DO have to accept that those sources are important to the folks who believe them.

…and I’ll bet you anything you like that this poster would much rather accept what you have to say than what I do. Been there, done that, using the t-shirt to clean paint brushes.

Diana, ticked off.

Wow, I asked a general question for all to answer. I am trying to understand (not be converted to) but simply understand the LDS teachings of which I asked in my original post. Please, and I ask you please to stop responding to this post as you are more interested in picking a fight than explaining your doctrine to me.

Thanks,

 

[Vico]

It is partly due to the different concept of Trinity between the Mormon (three persons one in purpose) and Catholic (three persons in one God) that the Mormon baptism is not a valid Catholic baptism.

Note that the Church of the Latter Day Saints baptism is a invalid Catholic baptism:
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni_en.html

 

[dianaiad]

Wait a minute…there was nothing disrespectful! Cat Herder simply answered my question with a link to back up the answer. If you consider a face of shocking suprise to be disrespectful maybe you are a little too sensitive.

Really?

Here’s a slice of interest; any non-Catholic who pulled that with a Catholic doctrine would get nailed by the mods. It is especially disengenuous when a face of 'shocked surprise" is put on a post by a person for whom this doctrine is neither a surprise nor a shock.

And yes, I’m sensitive this evening. It comes from having had to deal with this sort of mockery a little too often. So…I blew.

It is a piece of your doctrine that is VERY different from the Catholic theology of the Holy Trinity, and to all Christian denominations that could be received as shocking. Does not mean your belief is being “disrespected”…m just sayin’, is all.

Are you kidding?

You have just informed me that my beliefs are not Christian…and have done so in such an off hand ‘of course’ method as to be incredibly…

Guess what. Mormons are Christians. So are Catholics. So are Lutherans. So are Baptists, and Seventh Day Adventests, and all those who believe that Jesus is the Christ, who base their religion around His teachings, and who claim the name. Look it up.

So yeah, my 'belief is being disrespected" here, and you know it.

Again, I do not expect agreement. Surprise is fine, if one is not already aware of a belief. Criticism is fine, if you don’t agree. Argument is expected. Debate is good.

This…continual show of disrespect and mockery is not.

If you want to know what Mormons believe, I’ll be quite happy to help you out with that. I won’t try to convert you, or try to prove to you that what I believe is 'true."

I will treat your beliefs with respect…as I always have. In over 6000 posts you will find NONE that have me putting mocking emoticons next to beliefs with which I do not agree. You will not find me blithely telling you that you have no right to include yourself in a group to which you firmly believe you belong–Christianity.

Am I coming down too hard, here?

Possibly…perhaps, though, somebody needs to.

 

[CatholicGuyNY]

Dianaiad, if you think the “yikes” emoticon was used in a disrespectful manner, or your beliefs are being disrespected in this thread, then report the post(s) to the mods so they can deal with it instead of dragging the thread off topic.

 

[dianaiad]

There are times that I prefer emoticons over words. You, on the other hand, seem to prefer words. Just individual differences. I think it is a cultural thing.

Yes, we regard those differences in belief to be shockingly— different. Do you regard “Jesus was only a prophet, and nothing else?” to be shockingly different?

This is not mocking, it is only expressing shock and surprise. Unless God performs a miracle, your mind will never be changed.

How can such a belief be 'shockingly different?" They are different from mine, certainly, and from yours…but 'shocking?" Come on. 14 million Jews believe that Jesus was only a prophet…and have done so for 2000 years. How shocking can knowing about that possibly BE?

By the way, Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, yes, but not ‘only’ a prophet. They believe that He was born of a virgin, was indeed the Jewish Messiah, and will show up at the last day with their Imam Mahdi to fight their version of the anti-Christ. They do not believe He was the Son of God, or God, but definitely not ‘only’ a prophet.

I believe, also, that your defense of those particular emoticons is a little disengenous, m’friend. They were DESIGNED to express disdain and disrespect. If I happen to point that out, well, hey…that is what they were designed to express.

Be honest. If I were to write “Catholics actually believe that the wafer and the wine actually turn into the flesh and blood of Jesus the Christ, LITERALLY! :bigyikes:, :juggle:”
Would you be as…understanding…as you are expecting me to be?

Diana

 

[dianaiad]

What is confusing to me about the LDS doctrine is that even if you buy into the LDS theology that these old testament quotes are to be taken literally and without contextual interpretation, I was told earlier that the LDS doctrine is that the LORD of the old testament is Jesus. So it seems to me that based on this and the LDS theology of God and Jesus being seperate “persons” most of what you are referencing just proves that Jesus had/has a body???

Don’t you? Believe that Jesus has a body, that is?

We do not believe that Jehovah’s body was flesh and bone, but rather spiritual…He did not recieve a physical body until He was born to mortality, and then resurrected. We do believe that His Father has/had a body of flesh and bone, however.

 

[Cat_Herder]

We beleive that the Father has a body of flesh and bone, as does His Son, now in His resurrected body, yes.

Something about Genesis, and us having been 'created in [His] image."

and there is no ‘yikes’ about that.

Well, you are reading some emotions into my post that simply are not there. My reaction is shock because it forces me to consider, among other things, these sources which specifically indicate that God the Father is not material, such as:

1. Science
2. The Bible (Malachi 3:6 and John 1, for starters)
3. The Book of Mormon, specifically: Alma 18:26-28 and Alma 22:8-11

Now, what is most shocking to me is that the LDS Church specifically accepts #2 and #3 as Scripture.

I will also note that there are many, many Mormons who are NOT members of the LDS Church and who split specifically over contradictions between the revelations now in the D&C and the rest of the LDS Scriptures. The Strangite Mormons, in particular, reject the notion that God the Father progressed to godhood. Like orthodox Chrisitanity, they assert that He is eternal.

Hence, this issue is not as clear-cut as you make it seem to be. There is very much a “Yikes” about it, even in your own communion.

 

[cbelarski]

What I find interesting is that these verses are being cited as evidence that God the Father is corporeal (has a body), since those verses come from the LDS Topical Guide entry on “God, Body of-Corporeal Nature”, and that the “us” in Genesis 1:26 (“Let us make man in our image”) refers to both the Father and the Son. The problem here is that at this point, the Son did not yet have a body, since He did not incarnate on this earth yet (since this is during the Creation). So, how can this verse be used as proof of the Father having a body, when the verse is supposed to be the Father talking to the Son, and the Son did not yet have a body?

What I am finding interesting as someone new to this forum is that instead of focusing on my questions, the LDS poster Diana just got mad at me. I did not know LDS people considered themselves to be a christian religion. If I did I would not have said that, no matter what my opinion is. I just want a LDS person to anser the question I asked and the expansion of that question that CatholicGuy asks above. Not be defensive as I will respect your view, I just want to understand how you come to that viewpoint. I also respect that maybe asking someone to do that without the ability to refernence things they believe to be valid scripture is not fair. So if it can’t be answered that way just say so.

 

[Cat_Herder]

They were DESIGNED to express disdain and disrespect. If I happen to point that out, well, hey…that is what they were designed to express.

Objection, hearsay. You’re going to have to get the VBulletin developers on the line to verify that statement.

 

[cbelarski]

Don’t you? Believe that Jesus has a body, that is?

We do not believe that Jehovah’s body was flesh and bone, but rather spiritual…He did not recieve a physical body until He was born to mortality, and then resurrected. We do believe that His Father has/had a body of flesh and bone, however.

You are missing my real question here. If LDS doctrine is that Jesus was the Lord of the Old Testament. Meaning the Lord that was talking to Moses, then the references from the Old Testament you gave are saying that Jesus had a body…or am I missing something? Again, not looking for you to prove me right, or have you prove me wrong, just wanting to understand what the Utah based LDS believe.

 

[dianaiad]

I read that Mormon’s also believe Jesus and Satan are brothers…both son’s of God and one was good and the other rebelled and was bad. Is that why we say the creed and stress “the ONLY son of God”?

We do believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers…in exactly the same sense that we believe ALL of God’s creations/children are siblings. We do not believe that angels are separate creations; that ‘angel’ is a job description that is held by…people who have a job to do. All of them are…us.

We believe that, since we are all children of God, that we are all siblings. Those of us who have been born to mortality are siblings because of that…which removes us from Satan, who never will gain a body. Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh, and in that way He has NO siblings…even if He is our Brother by virtue of being Mary’s Son and human. That removes Him from brotherhood with Satan more than any of the rest of us are.

The first time I ever heard an anti- say “Mormons believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers” in a shocked and disgusted manner, my first thought was…yeah, so? Aren’t we all?

It’s not about a special relationship that Jesus and Satan have that we do not share. The question ends up being, at the bottom, a question of the Trinity.

 

[cbelarski]

CAN YOU PLEASE START YOUR OWN THREAD PEOPLE! I have asked some real and honest questions. Not one of them had to do with the meaning of shocking little faces, what some breakoffs of the Utah based church think (no different than Protestant’s breaking off and believing different theology than Catholics), or if LDS doctrine is that Jesus and Satan are brothers…I am done, last time I ask a question like this. I will stick to Catholic theology questions on this Catholic website from now on. Lesson Learned!!!

If any LDS person would still like to answer the last question I asked and the expansion of that question from CatholicGuy I would be interested in reading it, other than that I am out.

Thanks,

 

[Cat_Herder]

Really?

Here’s a slice of interest; any non-Catholic who pulled that with a Catholic doctrine would get nailed by the mods.

That is very speculative to say the least. There are many non-Catholic members of this forum who have achieved Veteran Member and above statuses. I imagine they did so mainly by not picking ad-hominem fights with other members.

It is especially disengenuous when a face of 'shocked surprise" is put on a post by a person for whom this doctrine is neither a surprise nor a shock.

And yes, I’m sensitive this evening. It comes from having had to deal with this sort of mockery a little too often. So…I blew.

How can a reaction of shock or “yikes” be considered mocking?

:blackeye:

We do believe …
We do not believe …
We believe…

Who is “we?” Where is all of that in the LDS Scriptures?

 

[Benadam]

The OP asked an interesting question. Mormons believe that the person they call our father in heaven was a man who rose to godhood and is now the God of this universe.

This being so, in ancient times then, God the Father had a body and the Son had yet to recieve his. If this is so according to LDS doctrin was the Son God before He was born to Mary? Why did the Father have to rise to Godhood via the flesh and not the Son?

 

[jewells17]

We do believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers…in exactly the same sense that we believe ALL of God’s creations/children are siblings. We do not believe that angels are separate creations; that ‘angel’ is a job description that is held by…people who have a job to do. All of them are…us.

We believe that, since we are all children of God, that we are all siblings. Those of us who have been born to mortality are siblings because of that…which removes us from Satan, who never will gain a body. Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh, and in that way He has NO siblings…even if He is our Brother by virtue of being Mary’s Son and human. That removes Him from brotherhood with Satan more than any of the rest of us are.

The first time I ever heard an anti- say “Mormons believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers” in a shocked and disgusted manner, my first thought was…yeah, so? Aren’t we all?

It’s not about a special relationship that Jesus and Satan have that we do not share. The question ends up being, at the bottom, a question of the Trinity.

And…eventually Satan is redeemed…according to Mormon theology and teaching?

 

[dianaiad]

What I am finding interesting as someone new to this forum is that instead of focusing on my questions, the LDS poster Diana just got mad at me.

I’m sorry…Cbelarski, you have NO idea how old this sort of thing gets, but I shouldn’t have taken it out on you. I’m sorry.

I did not know LDS people considered themselves to be a christian religion. If I did I would not have said that, no matter what my opinion is.

Fair enough. We do consider ourselves to be Christian…after all, the name of the church is “the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” I do understand that Catholicism has decided that we are not, so I certainly do not expect you to agree that we are…just don’t assume that WE have to agree that we aren’t!

I just want a LDS person to anser the question I asked and the expansion of that question that CatholicGuy asks above. Not be defensive as I will respect your view, I just want to understand how you come to that viewpoint. I also respect that maybe asking someone to do that without the ability to refernence things they believe to be valid scripture is not fair. So if it can’t be answered that way just say so.

Again, fair enough. …and also to be fair, I wasn’t 'mad at you." Not really. It was the combination of your question, and LJ and Cat Herder’s responses, which were the standard, dismissive and disrespectful ‘here we go again’…stuff.

I’d just…had enough of it, is all. Again, I apologize, and I’ll be happy to answer any questions you have.

Diana

 

[dianaiad]

Objection, hearsay. You’re going to have to get the VBulletin developers on the line to verify that statement.

Oh, come on, Cat Herder. The text between the colons that make this one appear is “bigyikes.”

 

[dianaiad]

You are missing my real question here. If LDS doctrine is that Jesus was the Lord of the Old Testament. Meaning the Lord that was talking to Moses, then the references from the Old Testament you gave are saying that Jesus had a body…or am I missing something? Again, not looking for you to prove me right, or have you prove me wrong, just wanting to understand what the Utah based LDS believe.

I don’t think I missed it, cbelarski. I mentioned that we believe that Jesus had a spiritual body…that looked very much like the one He gained physically.

 

[dianaiad]

CAN YOU PLEASE START YOUR OWN THREAD PEOPLE! I have asked some real and honest questions. Not one of them had to do with the meaning of shocking little faces, what some breakoffs of the Utah based church think (no different than Protestant’s breaking off and believing different theology than Catholics), or if LDS doctrine is that Jesus and Satan are brothers…

(grin)

I think I"m beginning to like you.

 

[dianaiad]

And…eventually Satan is redeemed…according to Mormon theology and teaching?

Nope. He made his choice…as did a third of the ‘host of heaven,’ as do those few who deliberately join him, knowing exactly what they are doing.

Question: where in the world did that question come from? Nothing in our beliefs that I can think of would prompt it.